Uniform policies if NAT/CC

[Eclipse]

No uniformity is possible if cadets are wearing one uniform and senior members another!!!!!!!!

D'uh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really?

So the U.S. military academies, where cadets or midshipman wear a customized uniform, while active duty personnel (equivalent to CAP seniors in this analogy)
wear their service's prescribed uniform, lack "uniformity"?

I'm proposing basically the same approach, only reversed, for various reasons -- cadets wear the parent service's uniform, seniors wear the specially designed one.

I'm getting so tired of this debate.. Service academies are unique in terms of uniforms that are based on history and tradition.
We are not.

Previously senior members who didn't meet the standard were limited to a polo shirt, a blazer uniform or a white shirt with only a name tag. This whole mess started when some senior members (who didn't comply with the accepted standard) opted for a custom uniform so they could wear all of the bling.

Being a member of this organization is expensive enough and Cadets generally laugh at senior members enough already because of the lack of self discipline that results in these constant debates and pushes for s whole assortment of uniforms.

Can't we show some pride within our selves and agree to disagree or take the high road and conform to a standard. After all, the standard relates to a healthy life style.

Can we stop making excuses or debate exceptions to policy. Let the unit commander determine when there will be an exception to policy.

Years ago, the first sergeant of the Combat Support Squadron at my AF Reserve base was redlined at a drill and then processed for retirement because he didn't meet the weight standard. He was a senior master sergeant hoping to serve until age 60 in order to obtain the maximum points for retirement. Instead, he was cut short with only 20 years service. I remember his big argument at the time was that if he lost weight to conform to standards, he would have to go out and purchase a whole new wardrobe.  Funny how some people justify sacking a career.

We are volunteers and we have been given a special privilege to wear an Air Force uniform with unique insignia. If you don't want to comply with the accepted standard, just wear a polo shirt or blazer.

Wow.  Just wow.

I was going to quote out specific points, but the whole post should stand as an example of all that is wrong with the debate
and discussion, not to mention the attitude of many members.

"Conform to the standard."

No acknowledgement that the standard is unreasonable based on the membership demographic.

No acknowledgment of the detriment to spirit and initiative that having two uniform classes for members
who are otherwise 100% equal causes.

"We are volunteers..."  That's funny.  So do those who "meet the standard" qualify as "Volunteer+?"
Are their hours and time more valuable then those who don't?   Are they more deserving of the decorations
they have received to the point that the world needs to see them displayed, vs. never being worn?

I'm as staunch an advocate of "shut up and color" as anyone else, but even that
has limits when the leadership charged with enforcing the rules ignores them either themselves, or in their subordinates.

CAP accepts the hard work and effort of its members equally, and should recognize their service and commitment, equally,
or at the very least respect that service and commitment by enforcing its policies and regulations equally.

Until then, this "just wear the golf shirt" can...well...you get the idea.

[AlphaSigOU]

Guys... enough of this urinary prowess audition for the fire department! The decision's already been made; many of us don't like it but we need to 'salute and execute'.

The promise of the late, lamented blue Corporate Sevice Uniform and its flawed adoption - and likewise its sudden rescission - is a lesson all of us - including the echelons above reality - should learn; while there are some excellent ideas for a more military look presented here the corporatists at Building 714 at Max-hell ain't going to budge. And Ma Blue isn't relaxing the standards for wear of their uniform.

When I wear the corporate grays I do my best to try and make it look as close to the AF-style as possible; wearing an aviator shirt with mitered/pleated pockets the same style as the blue service uniform Class B shirt and flat-front medium gray trousers as close to the gray shade of the epaulets. It's not going to be absolutely perfect but at least I look somewhat uniform. YMMV.

[PHall]

Guys... enough of this urinary prowess audition for the fire department! The decision's already been made; many of us don't like it but we need to 'salute and execute'.

The promise of the late, lamented blue Corporate Sevice Uniform and its flawed adoption - and likewise its sudden rescission - is a lesson all of us - including the echelons above reality - should learn; while there are some excellent ideas for a more military look presented here the corporatists at Building 714 at Max-hell ain't going to budge. And Ma Blue isn't relaxing the standards for wear of their uniform.

When I wear the corporate grays I do my best to try and make it look as close to the AF-style as possible; wearing an aviator shirt with mitered/pleated pockets the same style as the blue service uniform Class B shirt and flat-front medium gray trousers as close to the gray shade of the epaulets. It's not going to be absolutely perfect but at least I look somewhat uniform. YMMV.

You do know you're going to be burned at the stake for this, right?

Heretic...   

[Eclipse]

Guys... enough of this urinary prowess audition for the fire department! The decision's already been made; many of us don't like it but we need to 'salute and execute'.

"Saluting and Executing" doesn't mean you can't also whine and complain work towards a solution.

Also "S&E" doesn't account for the fact that people have the option to "Salute and Leave".

[Ned]

the corporatists at Building 714 at Max-hell ain't going to budge.

Chuck,

I know that you were using a figure of speech here, but it is worth reminding folks that no one who works in Building 714 at Maxwell have a vote or a say about CAP uniforms.  None of them are commanders, members of the CC, SAG, or a voting member of the NUC.  Heck, they don't even wear CAP uniforms.

All uniform decisions are made by CAP volunteers.  Members just like you and me, who pay dues and have to wear the uniform while performing our duties. 

There really isn't a "us" versus "them" here.  There is only "us."  We are all "corporatists."

And the reason that there isn't a good consensus about CAP uniforms is that there will never, ever, be a  consensus as long as we  all humans with different opinions about what looks "better," "more professional," or is more "respectful" of our diverse membership.

(Never, ever.)

So we continue to talk about it.  Sometimes rationally.  Sometimes emotionally.

But we sure talk about it.

[Eclipse]

How about consensus on enforcement?

Like say not handing a flag to a new Wing CC that is clearly out of compliance?

[Ned]

How about consensus on enforcement?

Like say not handing a flag to a new Wing CC that is clearly out of compliance?

No argument there.

There's no data, of course, but my experience suggests that overall the senior leadership is at least as good, if not better, than local leadership when it comes to enforcement.

But we all agree that every one of us should follow the rules, and help others to do so.

[Storm Chaser]

With that argument, CAP should not wear a military uniform as CAP is not a military service.

CAP does not wear a "military" uniform, it wears a "military-style" uniform.

That's just semantics. Our blue service uniform IS the same Air Force service uniform with CAP specific insignias. And until the ABU was adopted [by the Air Force], so was the BDU.

[Garibaldi]

With that argument, CAP should not wear a military uniform as CAP is not a military service.

CAP does not wear a "military" uniform, it wears a "military-style" uniform.

That's just semantics. Our blue service uniform IS the same Air Force service uniform with CAP specific insignias. And until the ABU was adopted, so was the BDU.

Wait....what? We are wearing ABUs now? Are we in the same organization? 

[Storm Chaser]

Not true. It can if it is treated as the Civilian Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

Really? So a civilian Air Force Auxiliary MUST be allowed to wear the Air Force-style uniform, but the Air Force Academy can't? I'm sorry, but that's a weak argument.

[Storm Chaser]

With that argument, CAP should not wear a military uniform as CAP is not a military service.

CAP does not wear a "military" uniform, it wears a "military-style" uniform.

That's just semantics. Our blue service uniform IS the same Air Force service uniform with CAP specific insignias. And until the ABU was adopted, so was the BDU.

Wait....what? We are wearing ABUs now? Are we in the same organization? 

Clarified the statement above for those who had trouble understanding.   

[AlphaSigOU]

the corporatists at Building 714 at Max-hell ain't going to budge.

Chuck,

I know that you were using a figure of speech here, but it is worth reminding folks that no one who works in Building 714 at Maxwell have a vote or a say about CAP uniforms.  None of them are commanders, members of the CC, SAG, or a voting member of the NUC.  Heck, they don't even wear CAP uniforms.

All uniform decisions are made by CAP volunteers.  Members just like you and me, who pay dues and have to wear the uniform while performing our duties. 

There really isn't a "us" versus "them" here.  There is only "us."  We are all "corporatists."

And the reason that there isn't a good consensus about CAP uniforms is that there will never, ever, be a  consensus as long as we  all humans with different opinions about what looks "better," "more professional," or is more "respectful" of our diverse membership.

(Never, ever.)

So we continue to talk about it.  Sometimes rationally.  Sometimes emotionally.

But we sure talk about it.

I stand corrected, sir...

[Eclipse]

No argument there.

There's no data, of course, but my experience suggests that overall the senior leadership is at least as good, if not better, than local leadership when it comes to enforcement.

But we all agree that every one of us should follow the rules, and help others to do so.

There's plenty of photos, many posted by NHQ.

When the senior leadership hands a flag or award to someone out of compliance, and then worse,
NHQ posts the photos, the real message is "no one actually cares".

A good start would be refusing to post any photo which shows people that are clearly out of compliance.
More fun would be a requirement that a caption call out the offender.

The fix is they don't get the award or the flag, etc.

[Ned]

A good start would be refusing to post any photo which shows people that are clearly out of compliance.

We've tried that, of course.  It was an unmitigated failure.

There was a (relatively brief) period of time when our CAP national media (which was pretty much just the newspaper at that point) tried not to publish any photos that showed members wearing their uniforms incorrectly.  Which included h/w and grooming, of course, but also discrepancies with badges, ribbons, insignia, etc.

The net result was that there were almost no "acceptable" photos available, and much sharpshooting and discussion of pictures that were published.

And no shortage of discussions on the old CAPTALK reflector about how members "couldn't even wear their uniforms correctly" and almost no discussion about the very real accomplishments of hard-working members depicted therein.  It seemed that we would much rather harp on tiny errors in uniform wear than congratulate and admire members for their successes.

I'm sure you remember the long threads here and on CadetStuff that absolutely ridiculed otherwise good people based on photos posted on line.  Dog-piling and sharpshooting became the norm, even for members who could not defend themselves or explain a situation.

Restated, then -- as now -- we are in serious danger of being "penny wise and pound foolish" when it comes to uniform wear.

[Storm Chaser]

I had a wing commander back in the early '90s that must've had his Air Force-style uniform custom-made, as there's no way AAFES could've carry his size. Thanks to several "generous" donations he made to CAP, he rose from 2d Lt to Lt Col and then Col within a couple of years without military background or special skills. He also had a very large rack of ribbons; very unlikely for someone who hadn't been a member for long. He obviously didn't meet the weight standard, but everyone looked the other way. Of course, that was over 20 years ago.

[Storm Chaser]

The net result was that there were almost no "acceptable" photos available, and much sharpshooting and discussion of pictures that were published.

That is sad indeed and a symptom of a larger and serious problem in our organization.

[Eclipse]

The net result was that there were almost no "acceptable" photos available, and much sharpshooting and discussion of pictures that were published.

Then what more "evidence" does anyone need that this is a serious problem?

Or, conversely, >not< a problem because no one cares enough to fix it.

Apparently literally no one.

So we could move the other way and stop caring and still end those conversations.

If NHQ's answers is "too hard", how can there be an expectation anyone else will care?

[Luis R. Ramos]

From Eclipse...
If NHQ's answers is "too hard", how can there be an expectation anyone else will care?

...or be able to enforce...?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The net result was that there were almost no "acceptable" photos available, and much sharpshooting and discussion of pictures that were published.

That is sad indeed and a symptom of a larger and serious problem in our organization.

And, for me, it brings the "take care of the splinter in your own eye" and "clean up your own side of the street" imagery to mind.

But the fact is the fact is the fact: the current "corporate" uniforms are not in any way equivalent to the AF type uniforms.

Leaving out my well-known personal opinion that they are bog-ugly, the following are nonetheless salient facts:

There is no authorised headdress, and I do not count Larry The Cable Guy style "trucker hats" imprinted with a CAP logo.

There is no service coat or way to display one's earned CAP decorations in a manner similar to the service coat.  I do not count the token "one-mini-medal-at-a-time."

This burns my logic circuits since there are direct equivalents to virtually all the other uniforms:

BDU - BBDU.  Check.
Green flight suit - Blue flight suit.  Check.

The phrase that comes to mind is "separate but unequal."

Incidentally...we are not alone when it comes to improper wear of uniforms.  Check this site from JeffDG's homeland.

http://wearingyourmedalswrong.blogspot.com/

[Ned]

Then what more "evidence" does anyone need that this is a serious problem?

Oh, I quite agree.  When nitpicking on uniforms clouds proper recognition of members' successes and takes focus from our missions, clearly things have gone too far.  It is indeed a serious problem.

Reflected right here on CT where we spend far more time discussing uniforms than missions or members.

(That's what you meant, right?)

If you were trying to make some sort of comment about how local commanders are not doing enough to enforce uniform standards, I was initially inclined to agree with you.

But then I remembered how successful you were as a commander and I am reassured that our commanders have all the tools and guidance they need to accomplish their responsibilities.


If your point was something to effect that "Although NHQ has clearly articulated the standards (39-1) and clearly fixed the responsibility on commanders (and members) to ensure the proper wear of the uniforms, they need to tell us again --  maybe louder or something --  to make us do our jobs.  'Cuz otherwise we won't.  And it's their fault that we are not doing our jobs here at the squadron," then I really don't have a response that will satisfy you.

I'm sure you're not surprised.