Firearms on Ground Teams

[Eclipse]

Guys - school's out and Twitspace must have been responding slowly.

[GSARmedic]

To which the GTL replied "We need to shut the signal off before we can leave."

Not only was that a reckless use of a firearm, but the GTL was in the wrong.  You can leave without shutting off an ELT.  If the police were aware of the situation and were on scene, then you can pass it off to the police.  The IC would call the NOC and inform them of the situation.  Mission over.

I absolutely agree with you on both counts. I was a 14 year old child at the time, maybe 6 months into CAP, on one of my first missions. After going through GTM and GTL training and becoming certified, I know that the GTL was incorrect. In fact there was a mission in Central Florida where myself and my unit commander were able to locate the ELT going off in a hangar where the sliding doors were locked by a chain and padlock. We notified the higher ups and closed the mission. Went back to the FBO the next day on my own and found out that after the close of the FBO the previous day, the pilot had an extra hard landing but was unharmed and the older ELT had gone off, but there was no one at the airfield to know that the signal was going off. So yes I do 100% agree with you.

We backed away only to run into a full grown 4 foot long adult cotton mouth. (Maybe it was Mama) In any case, the dog was the first to hit on the snake and the handler (who was not a CAP member), saw the snake, drew his own pistol from a concealed pocket holster, and shot the snake in the head. Killing it before it could kill the dog or bite one of us.

So you immediately make the assumption it was going to kill?  It was protecting its young, not out to kill.  In the thousands of snakes (poisonous and non-poisonous) that I have encountered, a simple backing away without provocation has always worked.

A herpetologist can correct me on this, but my understanding is that snakes have little to no maternal instinct. They don't protect their young.
My snake survival training was that you flee first, fight only if cornered, and in fact that is the same thing the snakes themselves survive by. We did flee the first group of juveniles who are less discriminant in their attack and also have less control over their venom injection volumes. I was more afraid of them than the adult. However, the adult was being antagonized by the search dog. Lastly, I did not shoot the snake. The handler did. Do I agree with what he did. Absolutely. I was afraid of getting bit by a highly poisonous snake.

I read your follow up about doubting that an adult was anywhere near the juveniles. You may want to take into account that I have no idea whether the adult was the parent of the juveniles. That is pure speculation, however, to doubt that more than one snake is in the same area is a bit stupid. Yes, they are solitary reptiles, but are often found to have multiple snakes in food rich environments.

There are accounts of missions here in Florida where GTMs have been surprised by wildlife including snakes and alligators and had nothing to protect themselves with. Most were able to flee, other's had to stand and fight, using sticks, rocks, or in one case a hatchet and tri-fold shovel.

Interesting that you automatically assume that a gun is the only form of protection.  You said they had nothing to protect themselves, yet you listed ways of protecting yourself.  Sticks, rocks, blunt force objects are all means of protection.  Fleeing is also a form of protection.  That thing that sits between your ears that allowed humans to become the dominant animal is the greatest form of protection. 

What I find more interesting is that you assumed for me, that a gun is the only form of protection. I did not state that. More accurately I would state that a gun is often the best form of protection. But there are exceptions to every theory. You can't shoot a swarm of hornets/bees, so in that situation it is ineffective. Point conceded, a gun is not the best in EVERY situation.

Also, my statement was that they had nothing to protect themselves with, which is 100% accurate. They had to IMPROVISE with what was around them to defend themselves. But which would you prefer to defend yourself with when stuck in some swamp muck up to you knee and a 7 foot gator is headed toward you, a stick or a gun? [/hyperbole]

My point is, which had apparently been lost to many of the other posters, having a gun to defend yourself WHEN YOU NEED it is much more preferable than when all of your safety planning goes out the window and you are faced with a dangerous animal. We can plan for a lot, but not for everything.

Also, that thing that sits between my ears, tells me and every form of human hunter since the beginning of time that a gun is better than a stick, rock, arrow, sword, etc. Hence why we have been able to become the dominant species, we have constantly evolved our weapons for hunting and protection to our current weapon of maximum efficiency, a gun.

When I walk into a dangerous environment, I want to be prepared. And no matter how much risk evaluation you do before undertaking a mission, things change in an instant. I can't plan on not running into any dangerous wildlife while searching the woods in the middle of the night. I can't plan on not running into an armed person "protecting their property" whether it is legal or illegal while I am searching in the rural areas for an ELT.

The best form of preparing for dangerous wildlife is educate yourself.  The better you understand the animal's behavior, the easier it is evade, flee, and protect yourself.  Also, there are other alternative forms of protection that do not require the use of firearms.  Since this is the second time you associate protection with gun, I suggest you educate yourself in order to be prepared.

I am very educated and experienced. You have no basis of my knowledge to even attempt to call into question what I know about animals, hunting, survival, etc. Steve Irwin was highly educated with animals, didn't stop him from dying. And before anyone goes there, NO I do not think that a gun would have protected him, that's not my point.

I have gone through private survival schools taught by Tom Brown Survival and Tracker school graduates as well as Hawk Mountain Expert Rangers. I'm pretty well informed. I've also spent years in the woods hunting and exploring.

But I do think that GTMs out in the middle of the wilderness should be able to defend themselves from wildlife, or in the extremely rare survival situation, have the ability to use a firearm to hunt.

If they cannot defend themselves from wildlife, then perhaps they are not prepared to be on a GT.  Also, in a survival situation, food is actually not a high priority as you can live weeks without food.  If you are worried about that rare survival situation, then I would suggest:

carrying a water purification system
know how to start a fire using a bow-method or hand-method (and actually do it, not just watch a video)
know and actually perform how to set-up a shelter

How exactly does a persons ability to defend themselves from a feral hog, gator, poisonous snake, bobcat, coyote, black bear, etc. have to do with their ability to be on a GT? Again, I concede that the first line of protection from wildlife is to avoid contact. No argument. I am only bringing up the what if situations.

Water, Shelter, Fire, Food. The basic needs in order of priority. The fifth step/priority is getting out. And getting out requires energy. Energy requires proteins and carbs. If you don't put in more than you are using, your going to die a lot faster than a few weeks. Lack of nutrients in a wet environment, can cause the body to enter hypothermia even if you have shelter and a fire. That is why CAP also teaches trapping, and hunting club use as part of it's survival training. Or at least they did. I don't know now.

But as for your suggestions, I do carry a charcoal based filter for my camelbak, but I know where to find clean water or collect it with a solar still. I am proficient with a string/bow stick method at fire starting, but I still carry a lighter and a flint and magnesium block. I have spent three nights in an lean-to, but I still carry a tent or jungle hammock in my gear. Don't worry I'm prepared to survive when I have to. But just follow the train of thought in these examples. There is a basic ability and a modern remedy. Lean-to > Tent, Solar Still > Water purification and camelbaks. Sticks, rocks, string traps > knife, gun, metal trap.

If as a citizen I am allowed to defend myself with a firearm, why should the fact that I am searching for a missing person or an ELT rob me of that same right to defend myself from unforeseen dangers?

Because CAP is a private corporation that has exercised its Constitutional Rights to limit the use of firearms and you have agreed to abide by that rule by signing the membership. 

I do not disagree. But that does not hinder me from questioning that decision. There is no CAP regulation stymieing my 1st amendment right to question the decisions of the decision makers.

The people who made up the rules for this organization said "no guns". And you swore to obey the rules of this organization when you joined.

If you don't wish to follow that rule there are other oganizations you can join that also serve the community that may let you be armed while in the field.
But in CAP it's not allowed. Simple as that.

Actually, I have an issue with the accuracy of this statement.

1. Members of one of the original 4 CAP units, patrol units based in Atlantic City, NJ at Bader Field, not only did they carry sidearms, but a few even carried hand dropped bombs from WWI that they got out of the Atlantic City Armory. I actually had the opportunity to sit down and talk to two of the original members and hear their accounts, but it was 15 years ago and inconveniently I cannot recall their names to support my statements.

2. If there were NO GUNS, then there would be no reason for CAPR 900-3.

3. I don't recall ever having been required to place my hand on the Bible and swear an oath to blindly follow the rules of "the organization". So, calling into question the "rules of the organization" is how we can effect a change on those rules. An open dialog and a free exchange of ideas based on the experiences of its members is how any organization/company/government can learn to be more effective.

4. Not being a LEO, I do follow the rules, or at least did when I was a current member. But that doesn't mean that I am unable to have an opinion that differs from the rules.

"Short Aside:
For those of you who are not in Florida, there is a FLWG supplement to 900-3. FLWGR 900-3 S1 and a FLWGF 19 for the acknowledgement by the wing that an off duty LEO can carry a concealed weapon while conducting CAP business and in CAP uniform in order to comply with regulations by the state that LEO's be armed and able to respond to an emergent situation instantly."

Can you cite what state law requires LEOs to be armed off duty?  I am in FL.  There is no "law" in FL that I know of that requires officers to be armed off-duty. Although I will admit I am new to FL LE.   Many agencies have policies that either require it, or highly recommend it and have guidelines in place for discipline if you are involved in an incident and were not armed.  But then there are also several exceptions... if you have been drinking, at a private place that does not allow firearms, in a place of worship, Federal Court or other secure federal buildings.  Heck.... several local courts in FL have policies that officers testifying on-duty in court in civilian clothes have to store their weapons.  Even for plain clothes detectives. 

Its great that FL recognizes that many FL LEOs walk a line where they face discipline at work vs being able to volunteer.  But there are also many places where CAP operates where cops cant bring guns.   Military bases for one... So Im a CAP member on an activity complying with my agency policy, supported by the FLWG supplement.  I can tell you the USAF security police at Eglin AFB don't care that my Sheriff wants me to carry a gun.  So now what?  Do I wait in the car while everyone else goes on their base tour?  Or was this a case where I could have just opted out of carrying my gun off-duty for the day? 

There is no law or statute that I am aware of. Hence, my characterization of "state regulations" not state law. By which I meant, as you stated, there are department policies throughout the state that require their officers to be armed while off duty. Maybe I was using to broad of a distinction and it was misrepresented to my actual meaning. "Various department regulations throughout the state." Maybe that is more accurate. My apologies.

Likewise, I don't think anywhere in my statement did I say that they should be violating federal laws by bringing guns into federal buildings or courthouses (including county courthouses). You are absolutely right. Don't bring your gun into those places. But the core of my statement was referencing being in the wilderness. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that if you have your department issued weapons secured in your patrol vehicle, and you notify the base commander before hand and the information is then disseminated down to the gate security personnel, they may allow you access without any issue. Especially if you are a regular, like attending CAP meetings at MacDill AFB after your patrol shift has ended. There are rules and then there are rules that can be modified by the base commander. All you can do is ask, and the worst they can say is no. If no, comply forthwit.

Normally, a patrol officer would not be responding to a call from a military base, nor should they ever respond while in a CAP distinctive uniform. But special circumstances exist in the world.

For example, let's say you are a Tampa PD or similar department SWAT officer. And you are also a CAP member. You attend CAP meetings on MacDill AFB. And you often drive your department issued vehicle with your equipment and weapons as your regular transportation in order to have an instant response time. Not only are you a law enforcement officer, but you also have been able to show discipline and judgement in order to obtain SWAT status. The base CO may grant you a standing order of access, strictly for your CAP meetings, with a call ahead requirement for any other CAP business not conducted during normal CAP meeting times, ie, SAR mission briefing at your CAP building on base.

[Eclipse]

For example, let's say you are a Tampa PD or similar department SWAT officer. And you are also a CAP member. You attend CAP meetings on MacDill AFB.

You will be in a CAP uniform, bound by CAP regulations.  If Florida law requires an LEO to carry a weapon, then
you will need to arrange for that in advance, and have it approved by the CAP wing CC in advance, before
you attend a single CAP meeting carrying a weapon.

CAP's authority does not trump the base CC's authority, so if he says "no", it's "no", regardless of state law.

If that is an untenable situation, you have to make a choice between CAP and your employment.  Most would simply find
another outlet for their volunteer initiative.

[Flying Pig]

For example, let's say you are a Tampa PD or similar department SWAT officer. And you are also a CAP member. You attend CAP meetings on MacDill AFB. And you often drive your department issued vehicle with your equipment and weapons as your regular transportation in order to have an instant response time. Not only are you a law enforcement officer, but you also have been able to show discipline and judgement in order to obtain SWAT status. The base CO may grant you a standing order of access, strictly for your CAP meetings, with a call ahead requirement for any other CAP business not conducted during normal CAP meeting times, i.e., SAR mission briefing at your CAP building on base.


State Regulations vs County policy are pretty different.  State regs I could see CAP making exceptions for.  County policy is pretty broad.

Wow... thats a pretty intense scenario.  Ive never known a cop who had to drive around in his agency ride even off duty in the event of maybe getting a SWAT call out.  heck.. even when I was on SWAT I didnt get to use my Dept car for personal use "just in case" I got a call.  But maybe there are places like that. 

[THRAWN]

Wait, just so I am clear....you are neither a LEO nor a member but you are making statements and giving hypotheticals for both and you are perpetuating some GT urban legends at the same time?

And the order is shelter, water, fire, food. I taught you better than that....do yourself a favor and retreat while you are behind...

[GSARmedic]

Normally, I completely advocate going easy on a first-poster.  But, after reading GSARMedic's anecdotes, I started to wonder if I had come across another Mall Ninja.  For those who don't know what I'm talking about, please refer to this webpage: http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

There's not a whole lot new I could contribute to this thread that others have already screamed to the tops of their lungs.  Firearms just have no place on a CAP ground team unless you are in a State like Alaska that have legislation requiring you to have one.  Period.  The End. Next Topic Please.

Frankly, GSARMedic (sorry, bud), based on his anecdotes, would be a prime example of someone I wouldn't trust to carry a firearm on a ground team.  Nothing personal, but he wouldn't be alone in that category of people in CAP I wouldn't trust to use good judgement with a firearm.  I trust those who reluctantly carry them only because they have no other choice.  I don't trust those who really want to carry them because they might run into a snake on a search line.  But because of the liability, regs, and just the plain fact that they're not necessary for what we do, that should be the end of any discussion to it.

I'll brush off the inference that I am a "Mall Ninja" I don't own tactical gear. Nor present myself as some sort of Special Forces wannabe whahoo. I have too much respect for our operators, especially my father and uncles, and the others who have trained me on what it means to be a soldier. I am not a veteran, nor do I go around wearing my CAP uniform attempting to portray a veteran.

I do have concealable firearms that I carry pretty much everywhere. I respect the requests of private organizations when they ask that I not carry on their property. Ex Disney World, churches, hospitals, etc. But whenever I can carry I do, only to protect myself, my family, or the life of my fellow human.

The anecdotes, were not meant to be funny, but rather examples of situations that I witnessed. When I thought it was wrong, I stated so. When I thought it was an example of why a firearm would be a useful tool, I stated so. Whether you decide to make a judgement call on my ability to utilize proper judgement based off of something I saw and not something I did or didn't do is a bit narrow minded, but it is your right none the less.

I don't trust people who are reluctant to carry a firearm, because those same people are reluctant to use them when the need arises. While my one example had to do with a snake, other situations, especially in the state of Florida can be just as much a reason; gators, bobcats, black bear, feral hogs, or coyotes are abundant in the various parts of Florida. We have had 2 bear maulings in a upper-middle class neighborhood since the beginning of the year. Don't believe me? Google it. There are also news reports of people who have been attacked by feral hogs, some were out there hunting the hogs, others were just in their backyards.

My point is, we don't know where we will be when a dangerous situation will arise. That's all. I could be on a UDF team in Seminole County FL and come across a black bear or more than one, because they are so prevalent even in populated areas. Also, ask anyone who has lived in Florida for most of their life. You treat everybody of water as if there is an alligator in it. Even retention ponds.


Finally, Liability, regs, etc.
Yes, these limitations prevent the use of firearms, however, they could also be argued to prevent the use of vehicles and aircraft. But what did the organization do to overcome these liabilities?

They created regulations to control the proper use and to form a basis of qualification for the user to obtain authorization. So in theory, just like a CAP driver's license being necessary to operate a CAP vehicle, beyond having a valid state driver's license, CAP could generate the same regs and qualifications to authorize GTMs or GTLs to carry a firearm in the field only. And require them to provide proof of proficiency and proper knowledge/judgement.

[lordmonar]

GSARmedic.

I will repeat.  CAP is a volunteer agency.   You don't have to join.  If you feel uncomfortable going unarmed....then CAP is not for you.

You can argue until you are blue in the face about 2d Amendment, what if's, "then why do we have cars", etc.  Bottom line.  No guns at CAP activities.   Unless you area LEO in a state where it is required by law.

If you cannot understand that simple rule, then you can't be in CAP and I don't want you in CAP.

Thank you for your interest.

[LSThiker]

A herpetologist can correct me on this, but my understanding is that snakes have little to no maternal instinct. They don't protect their young.

As you would read in my correction, there are some snake species that do protect their young for short periods. 

My snake survival training was that you flee first, fight only if cornered, and in fact that is the same thing the snakes themselves survive by. We did flee the first group of juveniles who are less discriminant in their attack and also have less control over their venom injection volumes. I was more afraid of them than the adult. However, the adult was being antagonized by the search dog.

The use of a gun here was not the appropriate action, nor was it required.  You would have been just as effective walking away from the adult. 

What I find more interesting is that you assumed for me, that a gun is the only form of protection. I did not state that. More accurately I would state that a gun is often the best form of protection. But there are exceptions to every theory. You can't shoot a swarm of hornets/bees, so in that situation it is ineffective. Point conceded, a gun is not the best in EVERY situation.

Also, my statement was that they had nothing to protect themselves with, which is 100% accurate. They had to IMPROVISE with what was around them to defend themselves.

I did not assume.  Your statement said it and you said it again.  You stated they did not have protection, when in fact they did:  sticks, rocks, blunt force objects.  So again, your statement that they had nothing to protect themselves is wrong.  They did:  rocks, sticks, etc.  The fact that they did not have a gun does not mean they did not have anything to protect themselves with.  The best form of protection is still the brain, which is what those people used for protection.

Also, that thing that sits between my ears, tells me and every form of human hunter since the beginning of time that a gun is better than a stick, rock, arrow, sword, etc. Hence why we have been able to become the dominant species, we have constantly evolved our weapons for hunting and protection to our current weapon of maximum efficiency, a gun.

You are not hunting on a ground team, so that is not applicable.  The use of a gun for protection is not the current weapon of maximum efficiency.  It is the last resort. 

I am very educated and experienced. You have no basis of my knowledge to even attempt to call into question what I know about animals, hunting, survival, etc. Steve Irwin was highly educated with animals, didn't stop him from dying. And before anyone goes there, NO I do not think that a gun would have protected him, that's not my point.

Steve Irwin is not a good example.  While he had experience, he was also over confident.  He made a fatal mistake that pretty much sealed his death.

If you honestly believe that the gun is the  current weapon of maximum efficiency for protection, then I will call in your knowledge about animals and survival.  Hunting?  Maybe sure I do not know as I do not hunt for sport.

I have gone through private survival schools taught by Tom Brown Survival and Tracker school graduates as well as Hawk Mountain Expert Rangers. I'm pretty well informed. I've also spent years in the woods hunting and exploring.

How exactly does a persons ability to defend themselves from a feral hog, gator, poisonous snake, bobcat, coyote, black bear, etc. have to do with their ability to be on a GT? Again, I concede that the first line of protection from wildlife is to avoid contact. No argument. I am only bringing up the what if situations.

You answered your question. 

Water, Shelter, Fire, Food. The basic needs in order of priority. The fifth step/priority is getting out. And getting out requires energy. Energy requires proteins and carbs. If you don't put in more than you are using, your going to die a lot faster than a few weeks.

Hmm say that to the people in poor countries.  Ghandi survived 21 days without food and only a few sips of water.  There are medical reports of people surviving as long as 61 days without food.  Average is around 31 to 45 days as long as you stay hydrated.   Yes you can survive weeks without food as your body will use methods such as glycogenolysis, lipolysis, and proteolysis.  Food is a lower priority than getting out? 

Either way, the use of a gun to hunt in a rare GT survival situation is not necessary. 

[abdsp51]

No base CC is going to allow one specific LEO to carry on base who is not assigned to a SF/MA/MP unit or their respective agencies.  Civ agencies generally are allowed to carry while on official business only. 

[LSThiker]

We have had 2 bear maulings in a upper-middle class neighborhood since the beginning of the year. Don't believe me? Google it. There are also news reports of people who have been attacked by feral hogs, some were out there hunting the hogs, others were just in their backyards.

Why does every one think black bears are some vicious animal?  Most people do not know what to do during bear encounters.  I will ask you, if you encounter a bear (and no gun), what is the best course of action?

Finally, Liability, regs, etc.
Yes, these limitations prevent the use of firearms, however, they could also be argued to prevent the use of vehicles and aircraft. But what did the organization do to overcome these liabilities?

The use of vehicles and aircraft is essential to the accomplishment of our mission.  The use of firearms is not.

[GSARmedic]

Wait, just so I am clear....you are neither a LEO nor a member but you are making statements and giving hypotheticals for both and you are perpetuating some GT urban legends at the same time?

And the order is shelter, water, fire, food. I taught you better than that....do yourself a favor and retreat while you are behind...

I don't need to be a cop to know what gun regulations are or what police departments require their officers to do. It helps that I have had roommates and current friends who are police officers to get that point of view. Much as a journalist does not need to be a scientist, to do an op-ed on the large hadron collider. Just need to obtain and understand the facts.

I am a former member of CAP with 8 years of service. I don't see how the fact that I am currently unable to attend meetings and make myself fully available to a unit, limits my ability to comment on a topic.

Everything is a hypothetical until it is a reality. The whole point is to talk about hypotheticals to determine the right course of action. Isn't that what you do when you conduct an ORM? Think about all the things that could go wrong to determine whether or not it is safe for you to move forward?

I was an eye witness to the two examples that I talked about. They are not GT urban legends, but if you choose to believe they are that is your right. The only thing that is hearsay, is the accounts that I was told by other CAP members about their experiences. To that I will concede, it is hearsay.

Water, Shelter, Fire, Food. I want to set up my shelter as close to my water source as possible. Not build a nice shelter and then have to hike multiple miles to obtain my daily need for water. You can die from exposure in 24 hours. You can die from dehydration in 24 hours. They are about equal. The durations are more dependent on the environmental factors, but they are pretty much equal. I prefer to find the water first if I have the opportunity, before setting up my shelter. Personal preference I guess.

Lastly, I don't know you. I can only assume that you didn't teach any of my survival classes, nor attended any of the same courses as me. So, you can check your pious attitude about that and allow another person their right to express their thoughts.

GSARmedic.

I will repeat.  CAP is a volunteer agency.   You don't have to join.  If you feel uncomfortable going unarmed....then CAP is not for you.

You can argue until you are blue in the face about 2d Amendment, what if's, "then why do we have cars", etc.  Bottom line.  No guns at CAP activities.   Unless you area LEO in a state where it is required by law.

If you cannot understand that simple rule, then you can't be in CAP and I don't want you in CAP.

Thank you for your interest.

I want to first start out by saying I'm not the one that started this topic, in fact there are more than one threads on this topic. I only offered my opinion as to why I would understand a GTMs reasoning for having a firearm. I don't think cadets should have them, only responsible adults over the age of 21 who have proper training and established proficiency and judgement.

As I stated, I was a volunteer for 8 years. I can appreciate and follow orders and regulations. I am not arguing 2nd amendment rights, nor am I forcing that argument on, as we all acknowledge, a private organization.

I'm not sure if there is a problem with my postings being read in the wrong context or what have you. I'm trying to be clear and fair, while expressing my idea. There is no need for forceful statements and denunciations if you disagree, I would challenge you that that behavior goes against OUR Moral Leadership and Ethics Training.

Even as an outsider, I want nothing more than the best future for the CAP, that's why I came to this forum. I want CAP to be better than it was, not worse. (To be clear I am not advocating that by allowing firearms would make CAP better, these are two separate opinions) I want my son or daughter to join CAP in the future. When I have the availability I want to come back to CAP.

To that extent, if you disagree with my opinions that is fine. Opinions are like butts, everyone has one and they all stink. But to say that you wouldn't want me or anyone else in CAP, an organization that supports the community and country, because you disagree with their opinions is just wrong and was a reason that I did see so many people join then leave quickly when I was an active member.

[LSThiker]

I want to set up my shelter as close to my water source as possible. Not build a nice shelter and then have to hike multiple miles to obtain my daily need for water.

This is actually somewhat incorrect.  While yes, you do not want to walk miles to a water source, but you do not want to build a shelter near a water source either.  Water sources attract insects and other animals.  Also it presents a possible natural hazard if it floods.  It would be better to build a shelter a few hundred yards off of a water source.  I prefer 300-500 yards if possible.

[THRAWN]

Yes, you do know me. If you moved to Florida in 02 as you said. I was responsible for training every GTM in NJ between 96 and 02. All of them.

And no, since youre not a cop your assessment and limited knowlege of law enforcement regulations as well as your perpetuation of urban myths makes your points moot.

What was the mission number of your alleged NJSP shooting? GTL? IC? What marina? What was the name of the expert marksman that shot the snake? Dont snow the snowman...

[Panzerbjorn]

I'll brush off the inference that I am a "Mall Ninja" I don't own tactical gear. Nor present myself as some sort of Special Forces wannabe whahoo. I have too much respect for our operators, especially my father and uncles, and the others who have trained me on what it means to be a soldier. I am not a veteran, nor do I go around wearing my CAP uniform attempting to portray a veteran.

Actually, I was referring to the outlandish situations where your skills and equipment were called into action.  Tactical gear doesn't make the Mall Ninja.  Mall Ninja is a mindset, and you're displaying that mindset.

I do have concealable firearms that I carry pretty much everywhere. I respect the requests of private organizations when they ask that I not carry on their property. Ex Disney World, churches, hospitals, etc. But whenever I can carry I do, only to protect myself, my family, or the life of my fellow human.

Okay...then please consider it requested by the CAP that you do not carry your firearms during any CAP activity.

The anecdotes, were not meant to be funny, but rather examples of situations that I witnessed. When I thought it was wrong, I stated so. When I thought it was an example of why a firearm would be a useful tool, I stated so. Whether you decide to make a judgement call on my ability to utilize proper judgement based off of something I saw and not something I did or didn't do is a bit narrow minded, but it is your right none the less.

I have to admit that the visual of you being chased by gang bangers while in the back of an ambulance made me chuckle.  The added visual of you as a paramedic having a firearm and shooting BACK in the middle of a high speed ambulance chase gave me a good giggle.

I'm not judging you in the least bit.  But that's not the same as you remaining credible in my eyes.

I don't trust people who are reluctant to carry a firearm, because those same people are reluctant to use them when the need arises. While my one example had to do with a snake, other situations, especially in the state of Florida can be just as much a reason; gators, bobcats, black bear, feral hogs, or coyotes are abundant in the various parts of Florida. We have had 2 bear maulings in a upper-middle class neighborhood since the beginning of the year. Don't believe me? Google it. There are also news reports of people who have been attacked by feral hogs, some were out there hunting the hogs, others were just in their backyards.

I didn't say afraid of them.  I said reluctant to carry them.  Professionals carry the tools they need to get a job done.  Amateurs carry things for the coolness factor or because they visualize an unlikely scenario in their head where they'll need a particular tool for.  So think about this...why would I ever want you on a ground team with me if your first instinct on seeing a snake is to draw down and blaze away?

If you're looking at a situation where you believe that you may need a firearm....perhaps your first thought should be to realize that you're the wrong resource to send.

My point is, we don't know where we will be when a dangerous situation will arise. That's all. I could be on a UDF team in Seminole County FL and come across a black bear or more than one, because they are so prevalent even in populated areas. Also, ask anyone who has lived in Florida for most of their life. You treat everybody of water as if there is an alligator in it. Even retention ponds.

So your first thought is to shoot the bear?  If you're on a UDF team, perhaps your first thought should be to seek refuge in the van you're driving around.  If you're on a UDF team, you're not going to be far from your vehicle.

Okay...alligators.  Don't go swimming while you're on a ground team in Florida in bodies of water that you can't see the bottom in.  I've been within 10 feet of wild alligators without them deciding that they're going to chase me down.  Keep your distance from them.  Seems simple to me.

Finally, Liability, regs, etc.
Yes, these limitations prevent the use of firearms, however, they could also be argued to prevent the use of vehicles and aircraft. But what did the organization do to overcome these liabilities?

Seriously?  We're going down this lane?  But okay....Do you have any idea of all the hoops one has to jump through to sit in the left seat of a CAP aircraft?  If you do, that answers your question.

They created regulations to control the proper use and to form a basis of qualification for the user to obtain authorization. So in theory, just like a CAP driver's license being necessary to operate a CAP vehicle, beyond having a valid state driver's license, CAP could generate the same regs and qualifications to authorize GTMs or GTLs to carry a firearm in the field only. And require them to provide proof of proficiency and proper knowledge/judgement.

No....Just.....No.

[Eclipse]

I am a former member of CAP with 8 years of service. I don't see how the fact that I am currently unable to attend meetings and make myself fully available to a unit, limits my ability to comment on a topic.

The majority of which was as a cadet, one admittedly ill-informed enough to not know shooting a door lock off wasn't "OK".
(As a commander, if I ever read an AAR that contained sentences like that, there's be a bunch of people with suspended quals, at a minimum.)

Also no need to respond in blue, it just makes it difficult to read.

[THRAWN]

I am a former member of CAP with 8 years of service. I don't see how the fact that I am currently unable to attend meetings and make myself fully available to a unit, limits my ability to comment on a topic.

The majority of which was as a cadet, one admittedly ill-informed enough to not know shooting a door lock off wasn't "OK".
(As a commander, if I ever read an AAR that contained sentences like that, there's be a bunch of people with suspended quals, at a minimum.)

Also no need to respond in blue, it just makes it difficult to read.

Not to mention the fact that no cop in his right mind is going to shoot a door lock off a door. It aint Hollywood....

[LSThiker]

Not to mention the fact that no cop in his right mind is going to shoot a door lock off a door. It aint Hollywood....

Agree with 99%.  There are some stupid cops out there.  After all, there was the agent that shot himself in the foot in front of a classroom while showing off his pistol. 

[lordmonar]

GSARmedic

I did not say I do not want you in CAP because you disagree with me.  I said I would not want you in CAP because you cannot understand the simple rule....No Guns.

Yes...this thread is old.

Yes...you are just stating your opinion.

But....because this is an old opinionated thread......you have stated the same old arguments that actually support CAP's position of why we don't allow guns.

Bear in the woods....walk away.
Snake Pit....walk away.
Locked door.....wait for the owner.
Too scared to go down town for the meeting....don't go.

Sorry if this seems harsh.   I have to be harsh because I have seen too many people interpret discussion of the benefits of allowing arms to be implicit authorization to do so.

So....no.  No guns in CAP.

[THRAWN]

Not to mention the fact that no cop in his right mind is going to shoot a door lock off a door. It aint Hollywood....

Agree with 99%.  There are some stupid cops out there.  After all, there was the agent that shot himself in the foot in front of a classroom while showing off his pistol.

Agreed. There are morons in all professions however...shooting off a lock? Beside the fact that it would have gotten a bit of attention like Eclipse said, its not as simple as it looks.

[THRAWN]

GSARmedic

I did not say I do not want you in CAP because you disagree with me.  I said I would not want you in CAP because you cannot understand the simple rule....No Guns.

Yes...this thread is old.

Yes...you are just stating your opinion.

But....because this is an old opinionated thread......you have stated the same old arguments that actually support CAP's position of why we don't allow guns.

Bear in the woods....walk away.
Snake Pit....walk away.
Locked door.....wait for the owner.
Too scared to go down town for the meeting....don't go.

Sorry if this seems harsh.   I have to be harsh because I have seen too many people interpret discussion of the benefits of allowing arms to be implicit authorization to do so.

So....no.  No guns in CAP.

Why walk away from a bear when you can shoot it? Youre right though. Its simple. CAP made the decision of no guns. Keep it home.