Can SM's wear ribbons from when they were cadets?

[aviator9417]

Can SM's wear ribbons they earned as cadets?

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/656/kw/senior%20wear%20cadet%20ribbons

Yes, some.

This knowledge base link has the basics and links to the relevant regulations.

[Garibaldi]

You can wear the highest ribbon earned as a cadet, encampment ribbons, red service, SAR and Find. That's what I remember anyway.

[Eclipse]

You can wear the highest ribbon earned as a cadet, encampment ribbons, red service, SAR and Find. That's what I remember anyway.

+ Any commendations, UCs, NCSA, IACE, etc.

Also see below.  ↓

[a2capt]

If both SM and Cadet can earn it, generally you can continue with it, plus your highest award. Though cadets and seniors have different criteria for the initial awarding of the recruiting ribbon, are any of the others like that?

[Eclipse]

Yeah, I don't think you can wear the "cadet" recruiting ribbon as a senior.

[SarDragon]

Yeah, I don't think you can wear the "cadet" recruiting ribbon as a senior.

That's been discussed on here ad nauseum, and I don't recall that anyone has ever come up with a definitive answer.

If I were making a local decision, I would say - wear the cadet ribbon until you have recruited enough additional new members to qualify for the senior ribbon. If you've reached that number as a cadet, swap ribbons when you cross over. [Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.]

[GroundHawg]

CAC and NCC as well. And if you have enough members recruited as a cadet to qualify for the Senior Recruiting, it can be "transferred" into one.

[coudano]

CAC and NCC as well. And if you have enough members recruited as a cadet to qualify for the Senior Recruiting, it can be "transferred" into one.

Not sure it's really defined or whatever but I would transfer 'recruits' (credits) as well
So if you recruited 4 as a cadet (cadet recruiter ribbon + triangle, i think?)
EDIT:  Now i'm starting to second guess myself maybe it's 2 for the ribbon +5 more for the triangle, i'm too lazy to look it up

Then you turn senior, you should lose the recruiter ribbon,
But you only need to get 3 more for a total of 7 to put the ribbon on
(the 4 credits from when you were a cadet would 'count')

That's how i've always done it anyway.


--not that recruits are 'officially' tracked in any way shape or form that i've ever been aware of...  My squadron used to keep a spreadsheet, and everyone who was a member had a field that showed who (if anyone) had credit for "them".  That was totally in-house though.  WIWAC it was not uncommon to see 2 or 3 people wind up claiming credit for the same recruit, for the ribbon.

[coudano]

:off topic:

I've always thought it was 'dumb' to require 7 recruits for a senior member to get a recruiting ribbon.
The ribbon should be standard for "CAP" and I think 2 or 3 is about right for the basic award.

It's not like people recruited by senior members are "worth less" than people recruited by cadets.

If we're going to assign worth to recruits, one recruited senior member who flies the junk out of our corporate airplane, or serves 10 years actively making the local cadet program run is "worth more" than 6 or maybe even 12 cadet recruits, half of which boil off after the first year anyway...

[SarDragon]

Not sure it's really defined or whatever but I would transfer 'recruits' (credits) as well
So if you recruited 4 as a cadet (cadet recruiter ribbon + triangle, i think?)
EDIT:  Now i'm starting to second guess myself maybe it's 2 for the ribbon +5 more for the triangle, i'm too lazy to look it up

Then you turn senior, you should lose the recruiter ribbon,
But you only need to get 3 more for a total of 7 to put the ribbon on
(the 4 credits from when you were a cadet would 'count')

That's how i've always done it anyway.

Why should he lose the ribbon?

I'm a cadet, I've been to an encampment - turn SM and keep the ribbon.

I'm a cadet, I have a Find - turn SM and keep the ribbon.

I'm a cadet, I recruited fewer than 7 new members, but enough to get the cadet ribbon - why shouldn't I keep the ribbon until I've recruited my 7th new member?

--not that recruits are 'officially' tracked in any way shape or form that i've ever been aware of...  My squadron used to keep a spreadsheet, and everyone who was a member had a field that showed who (if anyone) had credit for "them".  That was totally in-house though.  WIWAC it was not uncommon to see 2 or 3 people wind up claiming credit for the same recruit, for the ribbon.

Recruiting is tracked at NHQ, and is available in eServices - Member Reports, Member Recruiting. The report for my unit has new members all the way back to 2000.

The data come from Form 12 and Form 15.

[coudano]

I'm a cadet, I recruited fewer than 7 new members, but enough to get the cadet ribbon - why shouldn't I keep the ribbon until I've recruited my 7th new member?

Well for one thing, it's not the same ribbon.
The cadet recruiter ribbon and the senior recruiter ribbon look different.

So you propose keeping the cadet recruiter ribbon, as a senior member
Until you make the 7th recruit,
and then taking off the cadet recruiter ribbon and replacing it with the senior one?

I mean why not...  But if we're going to go to all THAT trouble
why not just make a "CAP recruiter ribbon" that has the same standards, and the same actual ribbon for both cadets and seniors, and let it transfer seamlessly.  Seems like the better solution to the problem, no?

Recruiting is tracked at NHQ, and is available in eServices - Member Reports, Member Recruiting. The report for my unit has new members all the way back to 2000.

The data come from Form 12 and Form 15.

Well, if it gets put on there...  eh.  That puts the onus on the squadron or the joining member to add whoever got credit, right?  No way that sort of detail gets missed in CAP, is there?

Haven't looked at the nhq report,
Also as I recall that was put there maybe for the membership 2000 drive,
Many of my credited recruits pre-date that.

[SarDragon]

I'm a cadet, I recruited fewer than 7 new members, but enough to get the cadet ribbon - why shouldn't I keep the ribbon until I've recruited my 7th new member?

Well for one thing, it's not the same ribbon.
The cadet recruiter ribbon and the senior recruiter ribbon look different.

So you propose keeping the cadet recruiter ribbon, as a senior member
Until you make the 7th recruit,
and then taking off the cadet recruiter ribbon and replacing it with the senior one?

Yup.

I mean why not...  But if we're going to go to all THAT trouble
why not just make a "CAP recruiter ribbon" that has the same standards, and the same actual ribbon for both cadets and seniors, and let it transfer seamlessly.  Seems like the better solution to the problem, no?

Spot on.

Recruiting is tracked at NHQ, and is available in eServices - Member Reports, Member Recruiting. The report for my unit has new members all the way back to 2000.

The data come from Form 12 and Form 15.

Well, if it gets put on there...  eh.  That puts the onus on the squadron or the joining member to add whoever got credit, right? No way that sort of detail gets missed in CAP, is there?

Haven't looked at the nhq report,
Also as I recall that was put there maybe for the membership 2000 drive,
Many of my credited recruits pre-date that.

Missed detail???  Perish the thought!   

As for when it started, I'm clueless. I just stated what info I have. The list does match my recruiting effort.

[pierson777]

If you earn the ribbon as a cadet in the same manner in which a senior member earns the ribbon, then continue to wear it as a senior member.

Senior members can't earn the cadet recruiting ribbon.  Therefor, the cadet recruiter ribbon is not worn by senior members (even when it was earned as a cadet).  The members that were recruited when earning the cadet recruiting recruiter ribbon may count towards earning the senior recruiting ribbon.

CAPR 39-1 states that senior members wear "the highest cadet award earned".  This refers to the cadet program awards (Curry through Spaatz).

CAC ribbon can only be earned as a cadet, but now may be worn after becoming a senior member.  A senior member cannot earn the CAC ribbon.

NCC and NCGC ribbons may be earned by cadets and seniors, but the criteria are different.   

[SarDragon]

Therefor, the cadet recruiter ribbon is not worn by senior members (even when it was earned as a cadet).

Where does it say that?

k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

Doesn't say you can; doesn't say you can't.

CAC ribbon can only be earned as a cadet, but now may be worn after becoming a senior member.  A senior member cannot earn the CAC ribbon.

What's the difference between the two situations?

Given the vagueness of the reg, a common sense approach makes them equal.

Here's another similarly situated ribbon:

Cadet Specialty Activity Ribbon - Cadets earning this ribbon may continue to wear the ribbon as a senior member.

Again, what's the difference in the situation?

[coudano]

Well Dave, why not then

Earn the cadet recruiter ribbon, with 1 clasp (4 total recruits)
Turn senior
keep it on,
Recruit 7 more, and ADD the senior recruiter ribbon as well (not taking off the cadet recruiter ribbon).
You fully earned both, and were awarded both, right?

There is no CAC and NCSA ribbons awarded to senior members only, that are different ribbons, and have different criteria.  NCSA ribbon seems to work just like the encampment ribbon, which nobody seems to question.  (personally I think serving as a wing+ CAC mentor as a senior member deserves a ribbon, not that i'd wear it)(that's how a senior member should be able to earn it)

[Luis R. Ramos]

Why add the Senior Recruiter together with the Cadet Recruiter Ribbon, when it is easier to move those recruited to the Senior Recruiter Ribbon in the form of clasps when the count for that device reaches it?

Flyer

[pierson777]

Therefor, the cadet recruiter ribbon is not worn by senior members (even when it was earned as a cadet).

Where does it say that?

k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.
(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

Doesn't say you can; doesn't say you can't.

CAC ribbon can only be earned as a cadet, but now may be worn after becoming a senior member.  A senior member cannot earn the CAC ribbon.

What's the difference between the two situations?

Given the vagueness of the reg, a common sense approach makes them equal.

Here's another similarly situated ribbon:

Cadet Specialty Activity Ribbon - Cadets earning this ribbon may continue to wear the ribbon as a senior member.

Again, what's the difference in the situation?

So, if the reg doesn't precisely say you can't do something, then that somehow means that you can?  I never really liked that rationale, but I see the point of a devil's advocate.  You're trying to point out where the regulation is lacking somehow.  However, CAPR 39-3 does say what ribbons are authorized for seniors.

You asked, "where does it say that?"  There is a list of senior ribbons in Attachment 2 of CAPR 39-3.  This list shows the ribbons authorized for seniors.  If a ribbon is not on this list, then seniors are not authorized to wear it.  If a ribbon is on this list, seniors are authorized to wear it - even when earned as a cadet.

Many cadet ribbons have been approved for wear by seniors and some may even be awarded to seniors.  There are only a few cadet ribbons left that are solely awarded to and worn by cadets.  Cadet recruiter ribbon is one of them.  Membership Services will tell you the same thing.   Seniors don't wear the cadet recruiter ribbon.

You asked, "what's the difference?" As far the CAC ribbon, it is only awarded to cadets, but it may be worn by seniors that earned it as a cadet.  Cadet Special Activity Ribbon may be awarded to and worn by cadets and seniors.  These are clearly stated in CAPR 39-3.

Personally, I wish that Natl would consolidate the cadet recruiter ribbon and senior recruiter ribbon into one "recruiter ribbon", and establish the same criteria (number of recruits) for all members.

[jayleswo]

CAPR 39-3 Attachment 2 lists the ribbons that may be worn by Senior Members (page 31) and those which may be worn by Cadets (page 30). Cadet Recruiter Ribbon is listed on page 30 but not 31. What Cadet ribbons may be worn by Seniors are specifically listed. Hope this helps.

[Eclipse]

The "Cadet Recruiter Ribbon" is a...cadet award.  It cannot be worn or earned by Seniors.

This is no different the the DR vs. DR-V awards.

They look the same, but have different criteria for award.