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flyguy06
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« on: April 05, 2007, 02:44:26 AM »

http://www.aetc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123028911
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 04:45:05 AM »

Except that you need CFI's to do it.  If the USAF wants to PAY CFI's to train pilots, why should we do it for free?
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Another former CAP officer
LtCol White
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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2007, 02:42:33 AM »

Except that you need CFI's to do it.  If the USAF wants to PAY CFI's to train pilots, why should we do it for free?

Well except for the fact that CAP would be giving something back to USAF and become more integrated with the service by providing a necessary and direct service to them. In doing so it could result in more funding and aircraft for CAP. It might also result in USAF funding the cost of the CFI rating for our pilots.
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LtCol David P. White CAP   
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RiverAux
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2007, 02:51:30 AM »

Its not a bad idea in concept for CAP, however the realities of CAP on the ground make this a non-starter given our current manning levels.  They are going to need LOTS of CFIs available at a limited number of locations and the fact is that CAP only has a limited number of CFIs and they are scattered all over each Wing. 

This first class is supposed to have 15 pilots.  Do you have enough CFIs willing to do this full-time for free in a large city in your state? 

Keep in mind that it is a major operation to put on the limited number of powered flight academys that CAP has in the country, and those are only for a very short period of time. 
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flyguy06
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2007, 03:12:50 AM »

Except that you need CFI's to do it.  If the USAF wants to PAY CFI's to train pilots, why should we do it for free?

We do it for free now. Ever heard of the National Power Academy?
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flyguy06
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2007, 03:14:22 AM »

Its not a bad idea in concept for CAP, however the realities of CAP on the ground make this a non-starter given our current manning levels.  They are going to need LOTS of CFIs available at a limited number of locations and the fact is that CAP only has a limited number of CFIs and they are scattered all over each Wing. 

This first class is supposed to have 15 pilots.  Do you have enough CFIs willing to do this full-time for free in a large city in your state? 

Keep in mind that it is a major operation to put on the limited number of powered flight academys that CAP has in the country, and those are only for a very short period of time. 

Thats very true. I reconsider then
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2007, 05:58:20 AM »

The Navy has been doing this for a while.  They use it as a washout program.  If a student fails to progress satisfactorily in the allotted time, he loses his flight slot. The CFI's who work this are worked almost to the point of exhaustion, with 10-12 hour days being common, six days a week.

I would rather see us structure the upper levels of the cadet program to mesh with college ROTC, and use our CFI's to give prepatory flight training to our own.
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Another former CAP officer
DNall
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2007, 07:14:53 AM »

It's not all or nothing. You could send some volunteer CFIs down there to the location, riembursed for their expenses of course, probably per diem plus travel & BOQ. They could then supplement the program, thereby lowering the contract cost & increasing the quality of instruction (student-teacher ratio at least).

If you wanted to go all out though, you could work to expand our relationship with AFROTC to include IFS as a summer activity for pilot selectees. You could in that case pay the CFIs... or more correctly (given FAA rules) you could pay them per diem while providing food/housing & transportation. You could then run such a program back to back or over lapping with CAP flight academies to get use of the same facilities (thereby significantly reducing cost to students).

It's complicated to be sure, but I think it's worth exploring with AFROTC & AETC.

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RiverAux
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2007, 07:31:47 PM »

I would only go along with that if the private company the AF has hired to do the work would cut their charges to the AF in recognition of the contribution of the CAP pilots. 

Saving money for the AF= good. 
Increasing profits for private industry with CAP volunteers = Bad.
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LtCol White
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2007, 08:15:33 PM »

I would only go along with that if the private company the AF has hired to do the work would cut their charges to the AF in recognition of the contribution of the CAP pilots. 

Saving money for the AF= good. 
Increasing profits for private industry with CAP volunteers = Bad.

The intent is to have a savings to USAF by using CAP in this. Otherwise, there is no point.
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LtCol David P. White CAP   
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DNall
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2007, 09:28:23 PM »

AFROTC cadets aren't doing this program as of yet. Academy does it internally, but AFROTC & OTS grads go to it after commissioning. That's potentially wasting time of their service contract (and while being paid) that could be more productively spent.

Since we can offer this so cheap (we got the planes they bought us & discount CFIs), I think we could work them into offering it for pilot select AFROTC cadets. I think that produces a cost savings to them either directly in paying less for the service, or indirectly in the gained service time/pay from the students. What I also REALLY like about it is Sr AFROTC cadets being exposed to CAP in such a way prior to commissioning & going to flight school. That's a great way to bump up our exposure & contribution.

I also think there's great potential to roll such an activity into providing significant logistical support to simultaneous or back-to-back CAP powered flight encampments. That gets more of our cadets flying for cheaper than we can offer it now.

Like I said, it sounds like a real good project that we should have a sit down with AETC on & work toward putting together here over a couple years.
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2007, 01:46:44 AM »

It's not all or nothing. You could send some volunteer CFIs down there to the location, riembursed for their expenses of course, probably per diem plus travel & BOQ. They could then supplement the program, thereby lowering the contract cost & increasing the quality of instruction (student-teacher ratio at least).

In other words, as another augmentation role (like CAP chaplains on bases)...sounds good, except it sounds like there is a civilian contractor already in place, at least for now.
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DNall
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2007, 02:04:09 AM »

Yeah, and there'd be an issue to take money out of their pocket, unfortunately... which is why I'm talking about the other angle of doing the program in the summer with pilt select AFROTC cadets that would not otherwise attend this till after they commission (which is obviously going to happen since they're Srs already selected for pilot slots).
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2007, 03:31:48 AM »

Yeah, and there'd be an issue to take money out of their pocket, unfortunately... which is why I'm talking about the other angle of doing the program in the summer with pilt select AFROTC cadets that would not otherwise attend this till after they commission (which is obviously going to happen since they're Srs already selected for pilot slots).

This is more likely to gain some traction.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2007, 03:38:47 AM »

I think there could be some ways for CAP to work with AFROTC on this sort of thing since those units are fairly spread out and it might not be too hard for a Wing or two to provide CFIs to work with them on a regular basis. 

However, even then we would be asking folks to do for free what they normally get paid to do for a living.  I've known more than 1 CAP CFI to work with a cadet to get them flying so it is possible, but this goes somewhat beyond the typical augmentation project we've been talking about in that it is much more like a full-time job -- and most of us agree that not many CAP members are going to be able or willing to do that. 
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DNall
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2007, 04:38:43 AM »

We already do that with AFROTC o-flts. You're not understanding either me or the IFS program. This is NOT a sustained thru the year program. It is a couple weeks of initial flight instruction to evaluate the ability of a student to learn how to fly. If they pass then they proceed to SUPT, if they don't then they are reassigned to needs of the force.

This is done for AFAcad cadets while still in school. Everyone else has to wait till they are commissioned. That means they are getting officer pay rather that cadet pay, and they are ticking time off their service obligation in wasted time.

AFROTC cadets get job selections at the end of their Junior year, then they spend a good part of that summer floating around between activities & internships.

What we would be doing is a 2wk long flight academy at an AFB, 2-4 of these events per summer (not all at the same base), w/ AF oversight & leadership on the ground.

The CFIs would be paid per diem plus travel (think salary versus hourly pay). They won't be getting rich, but it'd be pretty much what they'd make back at a flight school on their home field. It's okay that they get paid. The AF is still saving a bundle of money by getting this service at cost rather than padding the profit margin of a private company. The bigger savings comes in not having to pay the students a bundle to do this & making better use of their time as commissioned officers. If the AF chooses to fail someone, then they can be re-slotted to another job before they even graduate, and not have lost all that time & money.

What CAP gets out of it is national powered flight academies for our cadets ridding on the coat tails - basically being subsidized to a degree by the AF. I'd argue though that the intrensic is better. There's helping the AF do a better job for less money, but beyond that we get exposure with all these about to be officers that will pay off down the road.
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LTC_Gadget
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2007, 10:20:56 AM »

There is one additional "catch" concerning services for which the AF has contracted.  If they have a contractor in place, paid to provide a service, that contractor has both the exclusive responsibility and the exclusive right to provide that service.  No one else can provide that service instead of, or in addition to that contractor. If a gov't entity or representative tries that, the contractor can sue (and win). So, in order for augmentation of any kind to be an option, the contract would/will have to be re-written. 

The AF base where I work has a company contracted to provide 'roads & grounds' services.  All AF service contracts are being reduced to pay for weapon systems, and to keep/train/equip essential personnel.  So, the grounds don't get mowed as often as they used to.  We can't even volunteer to cut the grass with our own equipment, on our own time, as it puts the AF in violation of the terms of the contract.

Even the housekeeping contract has been reduced.  They don't vacuum or sweep the floors anymore.  They only carry out the trash once a week.  So, instead of an eight dollar/hr contract employee doing it, you've got gov't employees making far more, doing it.  It's what I commonly refer to as 'putting a twenty dollar wrench on a seven dollar problem."  Yes, on the one hand, our time is already 'paid for' but it certainly could be used more effectively, more efficiently doing the more technical, specialized knowledge job for which we were hired and trained.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled topic.

V/R,
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John Boyd, LtCol, CAP
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DNall
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2007, 03:36:24 PM »

If they have a contractor in place, paid to provide a service, that contractor has both the exclusive responsibility and the exclusive right to provide that service. 
Understand, but contracts can be ajusted to provide for that possibility in the case of the first version of the idea which just involved CAP CFIs augmenting the existing program for a contract cost reduction. There's not much legs to that though.

Which is why we went in this other direction to address AFROTC cadets prior to commissioning with a NCSA for them that is IFS. I don't think we can realisticly support the 450 pilot candidates they have a year, not at first anyway, but we can run quite a few.
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LTC_Gadget
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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2007, 04:18:56 PM »

I wasn't trying to 'shoot it down,' or put water on it, just to add info that hadn't been mentioned so that it could be anticipated and 'factored in' to someone's response in advance of when they went forward so that circumstance wasn't an unknown snag.

It's a good idea if it can be found to be made workable in some way...

I'm out...

Regards,
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John Boyd, LtCol, CAP
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DNall
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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2007, 05:31:20 PM »

I understand, and appreciate the input, sincerely. What the contractor is doing is IFS for commissioned officers. They don’t have an exclusive rights contract to conduct all IFS throughout the service. They have a single point contract to conduct course support at one location. We wouldn’t be at that location, utilizing their support in any way, or impacting the same student pool.

What we’d be doing is basically a NCSA for AFROTC cadets between their junior & senior years.

Just to get some idea of the scale:
-   450 AFROTC students per summer
-   4 regional locations/sessions
-   Facilities for 150 (barracks/dinning/classrooms)
-   20-25 C172s
-   20-25 CFIs, AF IPs can work it also
-   Additional ground instructors
-   AF oversight, command, light admin staff.

AFROTC runs for two weeks, CAP flight acad runs the week after with a few AFROTC cadets staying on to help support. The sessions don't overlap much so a really dedicated CFI could spend their whole summer doing this if they wanted. (literally, 6.5 days a week, may15-Aug15).

Total budget for this thing is about 1mil a year. That sounds like a lot, but we’re running a ton of people thru training that would cost the AF a lot more otherwise. I just think it’s something we should talk to AETC about. It doesn’t even matter if they go for it. If they say no then they still see us there looking for innovative ways to use our resource to make the AF better, faster, cheaper.
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Mustang
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 06:39:02 AM »

I doubt most civilian pilots could conduct it to USAF's standard.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2007, 01:24:35 PM »

Isn't this waht CAP did way back during WW2?  Helped screan prospective Army Aviators?
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flyguy06
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 03:15:51 PM »

I doubt most civilian pilots could conduct it to USAF's standard.

All it is is getting cadets their Private Pilots License and seeing if they can learn in a fast paced environment
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Mustang
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2007, 04:06:39 AM »

No, it's not...that's the old program.
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flyguy06
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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2007, 02:17:02 PM »

yes, it is.

http://dossifs.com/

The Initial Flight Screening (IFS) program, under command of Air Education and Training Command (AETC), began operations on 1 October 2006.  Doss Aviation, under contract with United States Air Force (USAF), will conduct flight screening for between 1300 and 1700 USAF 2nd Lieutenants annually. As the Gateway to USAF Aviation, Doss will provide initial flying training allowing students to successfully transition to Undergraduate Flying Training (Pilot and Combat System Officer) at one of several Air Force bases throughout the United States. The 45 acre IFS campus is located immediately adjacent to the Pueblo Memorial Airport, Pueblo, Colorado.

Doss Aviation Inc., headquartered in Colorado Springs, Colorado, has over 29 years of aviation experience in the following specialities and is therefore well-equipped to fulfill the IFS contract.

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Mustang
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2007, 04:13:42 AM »

None of which supports your statement:

Quote
All it is is getting cadets their Private Pilots License

The curriculum bears little resemblance to a private pilot course and does not in fact lead to an FAA certificate--unlike the IFT program it replaced.  It includes only 25 hours of flying and is designed to see if the student can learn and function at an SUPT-like pace.
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"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

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