The "Final Word" (?) on ABUs

[lordmonar]

but at least a couple of them that I knew, if they had to make a choice, would pick AFJROTC. 

Of course they would - lower expectations, generally done during school hours, sometimes instead of something harder (depends on the school).

Lower expectations?  Indeed?

That's a genuine question, since I know very, very, very little about AFJROTC except the Air Force seems to like them a lot better than they do us.

I was AFJROTC in the 80's......so I may be dated...but I have seen a lot of JROTC programs since then.....but there is no requirement in AFJROTC to actually do anything.

Sure you go to class every day, you wear your uniform once a week, you have homework (I did anyway) and we took tests and things....but rank was optional, leadership was optional, there was no concept of "advancing your training".    A lot of people took ROTC because it was an EASY A, or they did not want to take "study hall" or another elective like that.

Not to say that that JROTC does not produce good leaders or is a bad program.....but CAP does have some advantages over JROTC.

YMMV

[ColonelJack]

Two of the three public high schools in our county have AFJROTC.  I've seen some of the cadets out in public.

Hoo, brother.  I saw a cadet major in a store not too long ago and his uniform was so jacked-up wrong, I don't even know where to start pointing things out.  Some of the cadets in those school units are also cadets in our CAP squadron, and it's very, very easy to tell which is which.  The ones in our unit look like they know what they're doing. 

Way back in high school (back when dirt was so new it still had the price tag on it), I was in Army JROTC.  Our Senior Enlisted Instructor ran that place with an iron fist inside a velvet glove.  We were squared away on the two days per week we wore our uniforms or we were expected to go to the supply room and change back into our civilian clothes.  No nonsense from 1SG Burke (rest his soul). 

Jack

[LSThiker]

I went to a few Mardi Gras parades this year since I happened to be in the area.  I saw about a dozen JROTC units from around the metro area walking in the parade.  All but one were terrible.  They were out of step, no hats, uniforms unkept, shoes unshined, no command voice, "marching" as though they were strutting their stuff, and barely knew the manual of arms.  The only good one was an all-female platoon with proper uniforms, in step, good command voice, etc.  However, unfortunately, there was not a single CAP unit despite there being about a half-dozen units around (learned this afterwards as I was curious and looked it up). 

Anyway, while it is easy to knock on JROTC units, which have been true so far, let us not forget criticizing us.  I am sure there are plenty of people that look at CAP cadets and have the same thoughts.  No discipline, uniforms unkept, kids just running around the woods playing Army, wearing blue and bright patches on their uniforms, etc.  As I am sure there are a number of good CAP units with crisp uniforms and sharp cadets, there are probably a number of JROTC units the same way. 

[antdetroitwallyball]

You saw the membership charts that were posted, right?  I could be wrong, but I think if you continued to remove the perceived military aspects (especially a "military uniform") from the cadet program, I think you'd see the cadet membership numbers go south even further.

This is true. While I'm not entirely "comfortable" with the whole idea/message (don't read into this, I'm just refering to it from a philosophical level...) of cadets looking "military," I entirely agree with the notion that that aspect is a big draw to prosective cadets. 13+ year olds see our cadets working at events, and want to join. The military-esque uniform is a big draw for them. From my adult perspective, the whole thing almost seems ridiculous ---- I mean, why dress kids up in military uniforms if they are not in the military??? ---- but the cohesiveness and the distinctiveness that the camo uniform single handedly brings to the cadet program warrents its continued use. You put our cadets in blue BDUs and membership will drop. I don't like why, but it just will.

That's a genuine question, since I know very, very, very little about AFJROTC except the Air Force seems to like them a lot better than they do us.

I'm sorry if I'm looking at it too black-and-white, but JROTC too me smells way, way too much like a recruitment tool in disguise. And I despise current military recruitment practices. The enlisted ranks of the USCG alone are CHOCK FULL of well-educated people who were literally promised the world by lying recruiters. Additionally, there are many enlisted people in the military who have NO BUSINESS being in the military. They lack basic social/life skills and situational awareness. And a lot of this could have been very apparent to a recruiter at the point of a simple interview, etc. CAP at least maintains some distance from USAF in this regard with its cadet program.

I'm not too familiar with the inner workings of AFJROTC either

I may be just ignorant here, but what exactly does JROTC cadets do? I get the whole Drill/Ceremony part and "leadership training," but what else do they do besides that? Do they have encampment based activities, or any real aerospace education outside of that which directly pertains to the airforce? At a surface level, it would seem that the CAP cadet program might offer a bit more in the way of things to do.............but maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about here...

[pierson777]

what exactly does JROTC cadets do? I get the whole Drill/Ceremony part and "leadership training," but what else do they do besides that? Do they have encampment based activities, or any real aerospace education outside of that which directly pertains to the airforce? At a surface level, it would seem that the CAP cadet program might offer a bit more in the way of things to do.............but maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about here...

I'll try to answer these questions, but keep in mind I was in AFJROTC '87-'91.  My AFJROTC unit in Denton, TX had approximatley 140 cadets.  Yes, we did have summer encampments called "Leadership School".  I had the rare opportunity to complete it three times (Lackland AFB, Barkesdale AFB, and Dyess AFB).  I never agreed with the name "Leadership School."  The first two that I attended I would call "Discipline School".  The last one was more similar to CAP's Cadet Officer School. 

For aerospace activities outside the classroom, we had an active model rocketry program (extra curricular activity) and we had field trips once per semester.  We went AFB fighter squadrons, aircraft testing and manufacturing facilities that manufactured military aircraft, FAA and USAF ATC facilities, aerospace/NASA symposiums, etc.   

Additional "out of the classrooms activities" included orienteering team, drill team, and color guard. 

My general observation which I made then, and which I still believe is true today is that the average CAP cadet is usually more dedicated to his cadet program as compared to the average AFJROTC cadet to his.  However, the average AFJROTC cadet is typically better versed in military customs and courtesies, uniform wear, drill and ceremonies, USAF structure and history, and aerospace knowledge, etc.  This is simply because they are exposed to it five days a week and wear their uniform one entire day at school.  They have regular daily homework, reports, and exams too.  That said, there are more cadets in AFJROTC that do very little else outside of the class simply because they can get away with doing the minimum.  You can't really do much or progress in CAP with that kind of attitude as a CAP cadet.

[Panache]

I'm sorry if I'm looking at it too black-and-white, but JROTC too me smells way, way too much like a recruitment tool in disguise.

There's no "disguise" about it.  JROTC is a recruiting tool.  They're pretty up-front about that particular aspect of it.

Just the name alone should give it away: Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps.

[Papabird]

I'll try to answer these questions, but keep in mind I was in AFJROTC '87-'91.  My AFJROTC unit in Denton, TX had approximatley 140 cadets.  Yes, we did have summer encampments called "Leadership School".  I had the rare opportunity to complete it three times (Lackland AFB, Barkesdale AFB, and Dyess AFB).  I never agreed with the name "Leadership School."  The first two that I attended I would call "Discipline School".  The last one was more similar to CAP's Cadet Officer School. 

For aerospace activities outside the classroom, we had an active model rocketry program (extra curricular activity) and we had field trips once per semester.  We went AFB fighter squadrons, aircraft testing and manufacturing facilities that manufactured military aircraft, FAA and USAF ATC facilities, aerospace/NASA symposiums, etc.   

Additional "out of the classrooms activities" included orienteering team, drill team, and color guard. 

My general observation which I made then, and which I still believe is true today is that the average CAP cadet is usually more dedicated to his cadet program as compared to the average AFJROTC cadet to his.  However, the average AFJROTC cadet is typically better versed in military customs and courtesies, uniform wear, drill and ceremonies, USAF structure and history, and aerospace knowledge, etc.  This is simply because they are exposed to it five days a week and wear their uniform one entire day at school.  They have regular daily homework, reports, and exams too.  That said, there are more cadets in AFJROTC that do very little else outside of the class simply because they can get away with doing the minimum.  You can't really do much or progress in CAP with that kind of attitude as a CAP cadet.

I was in AFJROTC and CAP during that same time frame. (87-91) (Bolingbrook HS IL-091 AFJROTC & Shorty Powers Comp Squad (11189 now IL189).  These are completely different programs and each have the pros & cons.

First observation, cadets get out of it what they put into it.  That is universal.  I knew cadets in either one that were "high speed" and those that couldn't find their 4th point with a flashlight and two hands.   I have seen the second become the first in both.

Second observation, each unit makes their own flavor.  I got a lot of navigator training in JROTC because my ASI (Aerospace Sci Inst.) was a navigator for 30 years.  In CAP we had more high level Aerospace, nothing as in depth, but a lot more cockpit time. 

Third, each can lead to recruitment, but neither are mandatory.  Of course there is a lot more focus on military in ROTC, because there is no ES mission.  But it is the same for a CAP unit that doesn't do much / any ES and is a cadet squadron.  Just saying.

I loved both, but I can only join one now (not a HS student anymore & didn't retire from the USAF).

[Laplace]

I went to a few Mardi Gras parades this year since I happened to be in the area.  I saw about a dozen JROTC units from around the metro area walking in the parade.   

However, unfortunately, there was not a single CAP unit despite there being about a half-dozen units around (learned this afterwards as I was curious and looked it up). 

I know one of our Composite Squadrons in the New Orleans area was set to march in the Atlas parade, but the parade was cancelled at the last moment due to funding issues.   Sad, because these cadets do look sharp.

Hope you had a good time!

[Eclipse]

What kind of "funding" is needed to march in a parade?

[antdetroitwallyball]

There's no "disguise" about it.  JROTC is a recruiting tool.  They're pretty up-front about that particular aspect of it.

Just the name alone should give it away: Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps.

So its literally the militarization/indoctrination of children whose mind's may not yet fully have a healthy understanding of why we have militaries (unhealthy: "I wanna join to kill terrorists b/c big guns make me look tactikewl." Healthy: "Militaries are a sad reality after thousands of years of existance, mankind still has not managed to work out disagreements peacefully. People who serve are heros, but their work should be understood as 'necessary' and not 'kewl').

I'm not trying to be disrespectfull to the fine former servicemen/women who lead these programs; I'm sure they mean well 100%. I just personally disagree with the whole message it sends. And that's just my opinion, and no one will change it.

[Eclipse]

^ Sorry, a of of what the military does, especially the USAF, is "cool", no way around it.  And depending on the field you're interested in,
there's no better / faster / cheaper way to get training and experience.

It is what it is, but to assert that it is about the "militarization of youth" seems somewhat slanted at best, not to mention naive.

Then there's the issue that the average couch-groove riding, Twitspacing, video-game slacker could use a little discipline and "militarization".

NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Pft. Most cadets at that level (non commission track cadets), spend more time on BFx/COD than militarization through a cadet program.

[SunDog]

No offense taken - your point of view seems reasoned; I do have close blood (my son) in harms way, and I don't like it.  They got him young, just like me; but he's capable, and the need for his military skills is real, so very real.

War is bad. Regarding the current state of human evolution, war is often better than the alternative.  Good guys (smarter ones, anyway) don't put down their weapons first.  The nasty reality is we need young people willing to fight.

Military recruiting services glamorize the military, for sure. They'd be incompetent if they didn't;  it's rational to understand your audience, in order to reach them.  17 - 18 year olds perceive differently, but they do perceive.  And they can't be children forever. We need artists, engineers, nurses, teachers, etc.  And we need Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines.

You're right; many, even most, have a naive perception going in -  but we do need them, and probably will for some time to come.  If it helps at all, most kids who put on boots will never hear a shot fired in anger, or witness truly gruesome carnage.

[antdetroitwallyball]

they got him young, just like me; but he's capable, and the need for his military skills is real, so very real.

And like it or not, our freedoms depend on your son's willingness to fight. The military might be right for him, and he might be right for the military. There is nothing wrong with this.

Military recruiting services glamorize the military, for sure.

And this is really just the point where I take issue. It was apparent to me that you actually took the time to read my post slowly and truly understand what I was getting at instead of just randomly flaming me. I appreciate that a lot.

^ Sorry, a of of what the military does, especially the USAF, is "cool", no way around it.  And depending on the field you're interested in,
there's no better / faster / cheaper way to get training and experience.

When Call of Duty Black Ops was released, you had army recruiters showing up to do recruiting. That is wrong, in my humble opinion. I'm not saying that what JROTC does is bad, I'm just saying that the military has a known tendency to "go low" in terms of recruitment practices.

[Panache]