Crewmember wings alternative

[Flying Pig]

How about something like Army Air Assault wings only with the CAP observer emblem in the middle.  Somebody whip up that design.  I don't know how to do that stuff

[PA Guy]

We could always go back to the old "droop" wings that were worn into the '80s?

[lordmonar]

I still think you are all working too hard.   Just award the Observer Wing to Scanners and then be done with it.

[Storm Chaser]

Or we can just leave CAPR 35-6 as it is. That would require less work.

[PA Guy]

I still think you are all working too hard.   Just award the Observer Wing to Scanners and then be done with it.

There is no such thing as " working too hard" when it comes to discussing uniforms on CapTalk.   

[ColonelJack]

All for abolishing all uniforms, (polo shirts for all) and just the persons name and underneath the word Pilot, Observer, etc.  No wings, no symbols.  plain and simple.
Benefits:
  Cost effective for the members.
  Eliminates confusion of uniform/rank between CAP and Real Military.
  Something easily understood by all.

Costs:
   A large majority of the membership
   Lack of recognition as an auxiliary of the Air Force
   Being confused with just about every other SAR organization out there

I have never understood why people join CAP if they don't want to be uniformed.  I mean, it's not like it's a big secret that nobody springs on you until your check is cashed by National - you know going in that CAP is the auxiliary of the Air Force, we are a uniformed organization, and we utilize military ranks and titles.  If you don't want to wear a uniform or be called by a rank or progress through a military-style advancement system, why in the world did you join?  There are plenty of other organizations that don't have uniforms and ranks and insignia and all that you could've become a part of.

Good grief.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

While attending NSC last year at NHQ I was saluted by REGULAR COMMISSIONED USAF OFFICERS who were lower in grade than I am in CAP.  I returned their salute with a proper greeting and went about business.   :clap:

That's another thing, while I'm venting my spleen here.  Why do some of us have everything up to congestive heart failure if we get a salute from a member of the active duty military?  Why do we think that we have to "educate" them that they don't, in fact, have to do so?  Why is it so incredibly freaking difficult to just return the salute and carry on?  Why is this an issue at all?  (N.B. - this is not addressed to KarlIceman, who apparently handled the situation just right.  This is for all of us who get a bellyache when we get a salute.)

Good grief.  Again.

Jack

[AlphaSigOU]

Exactly. The RealMilitary® side of the house is NOT obligated to pop off a salute to CAP members, but it's common military courtesy. I sure ain't gonna jack up Airman Snuffy if he or she is unsure about CAP and doesn't pop off one, just simply greet him or her. If he or she pops off a salute, just simply return it, give a greeting and CARRY ON!!!

[VNY]

We could always go back to the old "droop" wings that were worn into the '80s?

The letter "O" on current observer wings can't be seen unless you are fairly close, and doesn't show up in photographs at all.

Give Observers the old style "droop" pilots wings, then you can tell who is who from a distance.

[Eclipse]

That's another thing, while I'm venting my spleen here.  Why do some of us have everything up to congestive heart failure if we get a salute from a member of the active duty military?  Why do we think that we have to "educate" them that they don't, in fact, have to do so?  Why is it so incredibly freaking difficult to just return the salute and carry on?  Why is this an issue at all? 

Low self-esteem coupled with a huge missing "clue" chromosome.

[Luis R. Ramos]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

For Col Jack.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

For Eclipse.

Flyer

[a2capt]

About the only time I .. educated, for lack of a better word, anyone was recently, going on base for a meeting, the MP asked me "so, how do your ranks work, do we need to salute?" and I said, we're not commissioned, we're a volunteer auxiliary and our structure is modeled similarly to the Air Force, both professional development for advancement, and rank, grade, but saluting isn't required at all.

.."but I can do it if I want?" .. "absolutely".. and he snapped a sharp one, and I returned it as he handed me back my cards.

About as much as I could converse without holding up the queue at the gate

Otherwise, yes- If I get a salute, I just return it smartly, and carry on. Somehow I have to figure that goes -a lot further- than all the heartburn others have over it.

Sometime down the line when that guy realizes "I didn't have to salute him".. he'll think back "but he returned it professionally, properly.."..

Whatever.

Go back to arguing over halos in the wings.

[SarDragon]

About the only time I .. educated, for lack of a better word, anyone was recently, going on base for a meeting, the MP asked me "so, how do your ranks work, do we need to salute?" and I said, we're not commissioned, we're a volunteer auxiliary and our structure is modeled similarly to the Air Force, both professional development for advancement, and rank, grade, but saluting isn't required at all.

.."but I can do it if I want?" .. "absolutely".. and he snapped a sharp one, and I returned it as he handed me back my cards.

About as much as I could converse without holding up the queue at the gate

Otherwise, yes- If I get a salute, I just return it smartly, and carry on. Somehow I have to figure that goes -a lot further- than all the heartburn others have over it.

Sometime down the line when that guy realizes "I didn't have to salute him".. he'll think back "but he returned it professionally, properly.."..

Whatever.

Go back to arguing over halos in the wings.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Alaric]

All for abolishing all uniforms, (polo shirts for all) and just the persons name and underneath the word Pilot, Observer, etc.  No wings, no symbols.  plain and simple.
Benefits:
  Cost effective for the members.
  Eliminates confusion of uniform/rank between CAP and Real Military.
  Something easily understood by all.

Costs:
   A large majority of the membership
   Lack of recognition as an auxiliary of the Air Force
   Being confused with just about every other SAR organization out there

I have never understood why people join CAP if they don't want to be uniformed.  I mean, it's not like it's a big secret that nobody springs on you until your check is cashed by National - you know going in that CAP is the auxiliary of the Air Force, we are a uniformed organization, and we utilize military ranks and titles.  If you don't want to wear a uniform or be called by a rank or progress through a military-style advancement system, why in the world did you join?  There are plenty of other organizations that don't have uniforms and ranks and insignia and all that you could've become a part of.

Good grief.

Jack

Technically speaking we are only an auxiliary of the Air Force when on an Air Force mission.  So most of the time we are a civilian corporation.  When I was a member of a volunteer Search and Rescue team in Illinois, even though we reported through the Fire Department we wore polos and tactical pants.

[lordmonar]

Technically speaking we are only an auxiliary of the Air Force when on an Air Force mission.  So most of the time we are a civilian corporation.  When I was a member of a volunteer Search and Rescue team in Illinois, even though we reported through the Fire Department we wore polos and tactical pants.

100% WRONG!!!!

I SAY AGAIN MY LAST!   100% WRONG!

We are always the Civil Air Patrol, The Official Auxiliary of the USAF!  Says so in the law that created us!

What you are getting confused about is:   We are only an instrument of the U.S. Government and covered by Federal Tort Protection, and Federal Workers Compensation during USAF Assigned Missions.

So get let's forget this AUX ON/AUX OFF stuff!

Sorry for my rant!

[NIN]

Sorry for my rant!

You know Pat, and I'm only saying this because I care - there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.

[lordmonar]

Sorry for my rant!

You know Pat, and I'm only saying this because I care - there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market today that are just as tasty as the real thing.

Yes I know....but then but with out my caffeine I'm not able to function in the morning. 

[Panache]

While attending NSC last year at NHQ I was saluted by REGULAR COMMISSIONED USAF OFFICERS who were lower in grade than I am in CAP.  I returned their salute with a proper greeting and went about business.   :clap:

That's another thing, while I'm venting my spleen here.  Why do some of us have everything up to congestive heart failure if we get a salute from a member of the active duty military? 

Because of all the apocryphal stories floating about that refuse to die about how CAP members like hanging around the BX trolling for salutes.  Nobody wants to be That Guy, so we tend to overcompensate.

Personally, I will go out of my way (literally) to avoid Airmen when I'm on base and in uniform.  I don't have a problem with saluting officers, nor do I have a problem returning a salute if one is given to me.  I just can see some Airman popping off a salute, his buddy saying "Hey, he's CAP, you don't have to salute him, newbie," and the now-embarrassed Airman changing the story to his buddies to how now I was trolling for salutes.

Back to Air Crew wings...

I'm not sure how I feel about the half-wings.  I understand that it has a precedent for prior usage in both CAP and history as "Air Crew", but personally I don't like them because, well, they're non-symmetrical.  I realize this is just personal preference, though.

But even that would be an improvement over a blank disc with "AC" on it.  Ugh.

But if we want to go into historical precedent, I think the 40's-era pilot wings are pretty darn sharp, even if we removed the colored enamel bit and just make the tri-prop silver.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Either way, some Airman's indignation at accidentally saluting a CAP officer should be zero concern to CAP, and a big concern for the USAF who is clearly not communicating their Auxiliary's place in the universe.

Which they have not done for some time, at least not at an educational level.  Upper echelons know who we are (as Colonel Lee can well attest) but the further down the totem pole you go knowledge diminishes.  When it gets to the point where some Airman writes in to Air Force Times saying that in BMT their MTI said to "ignore" CAP members, that's pretty bad - if true.

One thing I am sick to death of are all the apocryphal stories of how some CAP officer tried to chew out an airman/NCO for not saluting him/her.  I mean instances that are not verifiable as having been dealt with as a disciplinary/educational matter by CAP.

It's never been a big thing with me.  I'm just as happy if someone gives me a friendly "hi, how ya doin'?" when they see me.

I wish I could replicate the time just after I got my butterbars back in '94 and was coming out of MCSS and passed an Air Force Reserve Major or Lieutenant Colonel (the colour of the oak leaf fades with memory).  I snapped him my best salute and said "good afternoon, Sir."  He returned my salute and stopped, gave me a vigorous handshake and engaged me in conversation about how appreciative the Air Force and he personally was of CAP.  He said, "Keep on what you're doing, Lieutenant."

That's a warm fuzzy that a thousand salutes couldn't buy for me.  Them wuz the dayz.

I still say adopting a half-wing for aircrew would be good.  No lettering, and make the prop/triangle enamelled, like in the old days of CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

.."but I can do it if I want?" .. "absolutely".. and he snapped a sharp one, and I returned it as he handed me back my cards.

Nicely said, and close to what I tell military personnel who are curious.

I say "you don't have to, but we appreciate it if and when you do."