Most Basic CAP Uniform for New Member

[Eclipse]

But my point remains:  Commanders do not have the authority to order members to purchase optional uniforms.  Any order that purports to do otherwise is improper.

(Again, commanders clearly have the authority to restrict members from performing duties that require the use of an (optional)  field or flight uniform, if the member does not have the proper uniform. But such situations are extremely rare.

This answer, like most information from Microsoft Tech support, is factually accurate and irrelevant.

Saying a commander cannot order someone to buy a specific uniform, yet can set the UOD and restrict participation, means the defacto opposite.

"Well SM Jimmy, I can't make you by whites, but you can't come to a meeting until you have them."

This doublethink, circular logic is a situation NHQ has established and allowed to continue for far too long.

We can't force a cadet to buy anything, but BDUs are the defacto uniform for unit meetings, encampments, and most other
outdoor activities.

BDUs aren't required to be worn, but must be in a members possession for GT (which means we can, in fact, require a cadet to
wear something not issued, except we can, but we can't).

Seriously, it's ridiculous.

How about "one uniform, everyone wears it, or they don't and they stay home".  The chips fall where they fall.

[Ned]

LtCol Lee, you're scenarios certainly provide a different picture, but in all of those prior coordination would have alleviated most of them. 

Well, for at least the first one, I agree.  The other three, less so.

I have said before I would not penalize a cadet for something they have no control over.

I think every good CP officer agrees with you.

Let me ask you this.

How long has Capt Smith known the inventory was due?

Undoubtedly for a while.  But point of the hypo was that sometimes innocent communication errors occur.  And even if it was somehow the member's "fault" for making good faith assumptions or misunderstanding the commander's guidance, it just seems a little harsh to send them home and start talking about them "cutting corners somewhere else," in your words.

The example was meant to point out that mission focus is far more important than uniform focus.

Lt Jones case is correct in assessment it's optional, but I am also on a fixed budget and income and have equipped myself with three different uniform combos. Is all Lt Jones doing is admin and nothing else?

Does it really matter?  Do commander's get to second-guess members on what they can or cannot afford?  ("Sure you can.  You're just not trying hard enough!  Look at me, I can do it.")

If it is "optional," it is optional. 

Cadet Davis's case is one for the CP staff and cadet staff to work on.

Sounds like we agree.

The final case said Lt needs an attitude adjustment big time.  His attitude and contempt is not needed nor hopefully desired in our organization.  He's not the only one who is a busy professional and if he's thumbing his nose at uniform policies, then I go back to the earlier question what's stopping him from cutting corners with the A/C?

On this one, I agree.  As a staff guy, I would support your analysis if you chose option #1.  But if I was your superior or mentor, I would strongly urge you to consider option #2 or a variation thereof.  We agree that his attitude needs correction in order to be a productive team member.

[RiverAux]

Thats why it is ridiculous to allow commanders to set a UOD when the only UOD they can actually make anyone wear is the service dress  which we require be purchased but rarely require be worn.  Thus, the commander can set a UOD that everyone is realistically free to ignore unless it is for an activity that requires a specific uniform.  And the only activity that requires a specific uniform is ground team work (You can fly in blues if you really want to). 

So, CAP is really setting everyone up for failure here. 

Simple solution--

1.  Require cadets to obtain both BDUs and service dress.  Recognizes reality that all cadets have BDUs and officially makes it possible to require BDUs be worn by cadets for regular meetings (which is the norm except on blues night).

2.  Require service dress be standard senior member uniform for all normal activities except for field activities where other uniforms are appropriate. 

[Eclipse]

The example was meant to point out that mission focus is far more important than uniform focus.

These concepts are not mutaully exclusive, and our parent service seems to feel otherwise.

The only reason members believe these are somehow mutually exclusive is because of commander apathy and
NHQ's reticence towards making people sad, despite it ultimately contributing to the general malaise and
confusion about the issue.

[abdsp51]

Thats why it is ridiculous to allow commanders to set a UOD when the only UOD they can actually make anyone wear is the service dress  which we require be purchased but rarely require be worn.  Thus, the commander can set a UOD that everyone is realistically free to ignore unless it is for an activity that requires a specific uniform.  And the only activity that requires a specific uniform is ground team work (You can fly in blues if you really want to). 

So, CAP is really setting everyone up for failure here. 

Simple solution--

1.  Require cadets to obtain both BDUs and service dress.  Recognizes reality that all cadets have BDUs and officially makes it possible to require BDUs be worn by cadets for regular meetings (which is the norm except on blues night).

2.  Require service dress be standard senior member uniform for all normal activities except for field activities where other uniforms are appropriate.

I believe you are confusing the service uniform with the service dress. They are two different entities.

[abdsp51]

Lt Col Lee,  Sir we can go round and round on this whole thing.  We can agree to disagree on many of your hypo scenarios as to what is the right or wrong answer to them. 

In all of your cases can the CC send them home you bet it's entirely his/her discretion and call to make.  Adults are one thing and cadets are another.  When I attended SLS last year, it was put out that the uniform was either the AF blues or the G/W combo.  We had people show up in the polo combo and they were told if they showed up the next day they would be sent home. 

I planned a D/C academy and posted the uniform of the day for the activity, now had someone shown up without that uniform they would have been sent packing. 

But the question still remains if you can not trust someone with the little or minor things how can you trust them with the bigger ones. 

[RiverAux]

Thats why it is ridiculous to allow commanders to set a UOD when the only UOD they can actually make anyone wear is the service dress  which we require be purchased but rarely require be worn.  Thus, the commander can set a UOD that everyone is realistically free to ignore unless it is for an activity that requires a specific uniform.  And the only activity that requires a specific uniform is ground team work (You can fly in blues if you really want to). 

So, CAP is really setting everyone up for failure here. 

Simple solution--

1.  Require cadets to obtain both BDUs and service dress.  Recognizes reality that all cadets have BDUs and officially makes it possible to require BDUs be worn by cadets for regular meetings (which is the norm except on blues night).

2.  Require service dress be standard senior member uniform for all normal activities except for field activities where other uniforms are appropriate.

I believe you are confusing the service uniform with the service dress. They are two different entities.

Well, blame CAP for not really making the distinction clear.  For example, the service dress uniform is labeled as such in various figures in 39-1 while the "service uniform" isn't so described in the figures (while it is elsewhere in the text). 

[abdsp51]

Well let us see if this is fixed with the latest revision of 39-1.

[LSThiker]

When I attended SLS last year, it was put out that the uniform was either the AF blues or the G/W combo.  We had people show up in the polo combo and they were told if they showed up the next day they would be sent home. 

There is a difference here.  The AF Service uniform and the CAP Distinctive Service Uniform are both a required uniform, which every member needs to have.  The Golf Shirt is an optional uniform.  Therefore, this scenario is well within CAPM39-1.  However, if the activity said Golf Shirt and a person showed up in the CAP Distinctive Service Uniform and was sent home, this would not be correct. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ned, typical lawyer speak, twisting my words. Putting things that were never there.

It was established well before my post that there are legal and illegal orders. And that illegal orders cannot or should not be obeyed.

So if that is well established, why would I or anyone insist on them being obeyed?

Address my points without stating things that are clearly not there.

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

By the way, commanders potentially give an illegal order every time a new cadet joins a squadron to wear black and whites until they get the required uniform.

Cadet shows in black denim Levis or Dickies. "It cannot be Levis, it cannot be denim, it has to be dress pants."

Cadet does not own any black dress pants, his school uniform is a different color.

Cadet shows in black tennis-like shoes, or black walking shoes. "Those are not the proper shoes, they have to be black dress shoes."

Cadet does not have any black dress shoes because, again, his school uniform shoes are a different color.

Don't pontificate about "illegal orders should not be obeyed."

I am willing to bet that most previous squadron commanders and Cadet Program Officers here do not/did not check whether cadets have dress black and whites before telling them the dress black/white is a required uniform.

Flyer

[LSThiker]

I am willing to bet that most previous squadron commanders and Cadet Program Officers here do not/did not check whether cadets have dress black and whites before telling them the dress black/white is a required uniform.

Who tells new cadets to show up in black and white clothing?  I have never heard anything like that in my wing or region.  When I was a SQ/CC and then a CP Officer, my guidance was just show up in conservative clothing that is appropriate for the climate until you receive your uniforms. 

When did telling cadets black and white clothing become "a thing"?

[Ned]

Ned, typical lawyer speak, twisting my words. Putting things that were never there.

It was established well before my post that there are legal and illegal orders. And that illegal orders cannot or should not be obeyed.

So if that is well established, why would I or anyone insist on them being obeyed?

Address my points without stating things that are clearly not there.

Flyer

OK, Luis, I'll try.

So what were your points?

[Luis R. Ramos]

My Wing. I joined first in 1996, stopped attending in 2005 or so, came back in 2011. Has been there since 1996, continues until today. I have been in six different squadrons, and have attended some activities in which other squadrons have also told new cadets of this "uniform."

Flyer

[LSThiker]

My Wing.

Flyer

Interesting.  Cannot say I really understand the point, but okay.  Interesting nevertheless.

[PHall]

My Wing. I joined first in 1996, stopped attending in 2005 or so, came back in 2011. Has been there since 1996, continues until today. I have been in six different squadrons, and have attended some activities in which other squadrons have also told new cadets of this "uniform."

Flyer

Was this in a Wing Supplement or something? Because if it isn't it's not enforceable.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Nope, it is not in any Wing supplement. But appears to  be enforced by all senior members... It has never been challenged, and every time you go to  a different squadron, you see the "uniform." And the CCs state it again.

[Fubar]

In all of your cases can the CC send them home you bet it's entirely his/her discretion and call to make.  Adults are one thing and cadets are another.  When I attended SLS last year, it was put out that the uniform was either the AF blues or the G/W combo.  We had people show up in the polo combo and they were told if they showed up the next day they would be sent home.

That's unfortunate that there were members who decided to ignore what I assume were clear instructions on the UOD. Did anyone offer up an explanation for their disobedience that made sense?

What undermines your efforts to enforce your disdain of the golf shirt uniform onto your fellow members is that those without anything but the golf shirt can simply skip your SLS and wait for the next one that allows them to wear their preferred uniform. Because we allow commanders and activity directors the flexibility to command within the regulations, we all have to occasionally live with commanders who base their decisions on priorities other than our own.

[Fubar]

My Wing. I joined first in 1996, stopped attending in 2005 or so, came back in 2011. Has been there since 1996, continues until today. I have been in six different squadrons, and have attended some activities in which other squadrons have also told new cadets of this "uniform."

Flyer

Was this in a Wing Supplement or something? Because if it isn't it's not enforceable.

Is it any less enforceable than the PT uniforms squadrons dictate to their cadet members?

[RiverAux]

What undermines your efforts to enforce your disdain of the golf shirt uniform onto your fellow members is that those without anything but the golf shirt can simply skip your SLS and wait for the next one that allows them to wear their preferred uniform.

I'm glad to hear that there are members who would willingly delay CAP promotion because they couldn't wear their preferred uniform to an event.  Folks like that don't need to be promoted.