February 26, 2020, 01:49:44 am

NCO Program Launched

Started by ProdigalJim, October 21, 2013, 10:36:18 pm

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Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 am
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 am
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.


No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.


Good thing I went to college! MSgt, I take my coffee with cream and sugar. Lattes with milk at 140F.

Private Investigator

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 am
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:03:37 am
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 12:56:57 am
Quote from: NCRblues on October 22, 2013, 12:33:11 am
Quote from: tkelley004 on October 21, 2013, 11:53:47 pm
No more command assignments "Sorry I'm an NCO" :)


Issue #1
It's one of the reasons why I traded in my Oak Leaves for my MSgt Stripes.


That statement beautifully encapsulates why the NCO / Officer paradigm will never function in an all-volunteer
organization.
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.


Sarge has a great point.

Operationally, a GT is led by a GTL. A GTL can be any rank and a GTM1, GTM2 or a GTM3 follows the GTL directions/orders. I have flown on actual missions and the Wing Commander was our MS. The only people who are rank conscious is new Senior Members and most Cadets understand why a 1st Lt is Squadron Commander and the Lt Col is making coffee and meeting/greeting people.   8)

lordmonar

It is you who assert that grad is meaningless.

Also I just said.....maybe this is a step into making grade less meaningless.

As for officers who don't understand the nco/officer relationship......where do you thing "real" officers learn that?  They certainly don't learn it at the Academy, ROTC or OTS.  They learn from their NCO's on the job.

Which is exactly where I will be......waiting to explain to these new 2d Lt's the errors of their ways and all the glories of heaven that can be theirs.....if they just listen to good old Sarge.

Eclipse.....don't teach your Granddad how to suck eggs.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

If this is, in fact, just a way for those who choose to wear stripes from another service to be able to be promoted along the same PDO
lines as those who are appointed officers, well, whatever, but without a wholesale rework of PD with another full track, it's pretty
meaningless, since the PDO we have today is not geared towards the NCO's universe.   It's all strategic, management, and command.

Here's something else to pipe and smoke.

Anyone who's ever met a real E-8 or E-9 knows they are a special breed of cat, from their level of commitment, to their bearing, to
their (generally) quiet knowledge and authority that comes from having been there and done that at the highest level of their game.

This will now set up the same paradigm for the NCOs that the officers have had to deal with since CAP day-1.  Members rising to CAP
grade that they would have never earned in the military and then standing toe-to-toe with the "real" officers.

The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.



Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:22:47 am
Eclipse.....don't teach your Granddad how to suck eggs.


Don't teach your Granddad to suck eggs...Sir...    >:D



lordmonar

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 01:20:19 am
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 am
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 am
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.


No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.


Good thing I went to college! MSgt, I take my coffee with cream and sugar. Lattes with milk at 140F.
I'll get right onto that sir!   Oh, Sir the Col just called and said he wanted you to get him a CAP Form ID10T and get the Command Chief to sigh it for him.   >:D
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 am
The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.


RM would be one of the chief detractors. But at least they can't troll for salutes outside the BX.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Quote from: NIN on October 22, 2013, 01:25:30 am
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 am
The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.


RM would be one of the chief detractors. But at least they can't troll for salutes outside the BX.


Troll salutes?  No.

Cause panic as some unknown E-8 starts wandering around a base and no one knows where he came from?
Same issue, different insignia.



lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:23:58 am
If this is, in fact, just a way for those who choose to wear stripes from another service to be able to be promoted along the same PDO
lines as those who are appointed officers, well, whatever, but without a wholesale rework of PD with another full track, it's pretty
meaningless, since the PDO we have today is not geared towards the NCO's universe.   It's all strategic, management, and command.

Here's something else to pipe and smoke.

Anyone who's ever met a real E-8 or E-9 knows they are a special breed of cat, from their level of commitment, to their bearing, to
their (generally) quiet knowledge and authority that comes from having been there and done that at the highest level of their game.

This will now set up the same paradigm for the NCOs that the officers have had to deal with since CAP day-1.  Members rising to CAP
grade that they would have never earned in the military and then standing toe-to-toe with the "real" officers.

The anticipated "fun" of watching "real" NCO's gripe about "fake" NCO's is almost worth this effort.
Unfortunately......In my service there is a big difference between an E-9 and a "Chief" and all too often we get a lot of E-9's and not enough Chiefs.

As for "standing toe to  toe"......that's only a big deal if you (or they care).   
Sort of like the whole CAP Ranger issue.   
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:27:05 am
Troll salutes?  No.

Cause panic as some unknown E-8 starts wandering around a base and no one knows where he came from?
Same issue, different insignia.


*ding*

People don't run in panic from random Captains.

People *do* run in panic from the approach of an E-9.  Its like a Terminator: "Its never, ever gonna stop."

:)

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

October 22, 2013, 01:36:23 am #30 Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 01:39:37 am by Eclipse
^ And, at least in the wive's tales, it's usually some NCO making the complaints about CAP salute trollers, so how's that
same guy (who's actually fictional) going to feel about this?

Honestly, I don't care one way or the other in the abstract.

My craw is stuck because with all of the REAL PROBLEMS we're facing, this is deck chairs, and the
last thing we need right now is more background noise and distractions, nor anything else that will
potentially cause a division between members.

We've got eleventy-twelveteen regs that are obsolete or self-conflict, ES doctrine that hasn't been addressed in a nearly a decade,
and a churn rate that would shut down most businesses, yet this somehow rises to the top of the list?



Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:25:16 am
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 01:20:19 am
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:13:47 am
Quote from: lordmonar on October 22, 2013, 01:07:25 am
Why?  I perfectly encapsulates a volunteer organization..."Want to help and be there....but I don't want to be in charge."  "Here you go Sarge.....have fun."  "I'm really motivated and want to be in charge....oh and here are my credentials"....."thanks for Joining LT".

It won't function so long as you force each and every individual into your little mold of what we should be.


No, your meaningless grade doesn't absolve you of responsibilities or give you the expectation that
I'll carry more weight because of my meaningless grade.

That's what's apparently lost here.  You can't have it both ways "Grade is meaningless, except when
I want to be absolved of some responsibility."

You, as an individual, can do whatever you please.  But to take the leap that not being a CAP Officer
some how absolves you of the same staff duties and potential command that everyone else has
means you really don't get it.

If you really want that bright line, and I promise you don't, then there needs to be actual advantage
and privilege to being a CAP officer to go along with the increased scope of responsibility and authority.

If you think things are bad now, wait until you have untrained officers with no fundamental understanding
of the NCO paradigm ordering you to do the heavy lifting while they go for coffee.

'Cause that's what's at the end of this line.


Good thing I went to college! MSgt, I take my coffee with cream and sugar. Lattes with milk at 140F.
I'll get right onto that sir!   Oh, Sir the Col just called and said he wanted you to get him a CAP Form ID10T and get the Command Chief to sigh it for him.   >:D


That joke is much better when not written.

RiverAux

Maybe we should wait to see some specifics before going into full-on debate mode?  We already have a huge general thread on the topic of CAP NCOs that would be more appropriate for some of this.

Lets see some reg proposals and then worry about tearing them apart?

PHall

Quote from: NIN on October 22, 2013, 01:29:16 am
Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:27:05 am
Troll salutes?  No.

Cause panic as some unknown E-8 starts wandering around a base and no one knows where he came from?
Same issue, different insignia.


*ding*

People don't run in panic from random Captains.

People *do* run in panic from the approach of an E-9.  Its like a Terminator: "Its never, ever gonna stop."

:)


Maybe they run from E-9's on Army posts, but they sure don't on Air Force Bases.

But you can bet that if a CAP "Chief" shows up at an Air Force Base in uniform, a member of the base Chief's Group will be making face to face contact within 30 minutes of their arrival.
They're about the only ones who would care.

Walkman

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 22, 2013, 12:53:50 am
Quote from: Walkman on October 22, 2013, 12:36:07 am
Even if the new policy doesn't go as far as some would like, I'm still going to give it a thumbs-up as a good step forward.


To What End?


My 2¢:
1. It gives those who want to stay NCOs a way to keep advancing
2. If the end is creating a structure more like the RM where NCOs have a specific role and officer have another role, I can see some benefits to our whole program
   2a) I've been saying for a while that the training level and qualifications for promotion in the officer ranks should be raised. This could facilitate that.
3. Specialty tracks and PD could expand. Those in the NCO grades could focus more on the technical aspects of things and Os could dig into leadership and strategic development.

sarmed1

Good that NCO's can promote in the NCO ranks to make them feel better about themselves.  Bad-if there isnt more in the wings; its totally about them feeling better about themselves.

I would feel better about this plan if there was a change in the officer appointment/promotion requirements.  Basically putting them more in line with RM counterparts, in essence creating an enlisted corps (even if it will be all NCO's).

In speculation I wonder if some of the drive may come from the USAF change requiring a 4 year degree for SOS even for CAP students.

The down side(s) to more stringent requirements is that there are a lot of folks that are going to get butt hurt about being "demoted" down to Staff, Tech or Master because they dont have degrees after an appropriate phase in period.....and that all new people coming in are going to "only" be SSGT's when there friend who came in 3 months ago is a butter bar....

Would you/Should you put an education requirement onto existing officers to complete by XYZ date or just grandfather forever?
At least this would make life easier on where under 21 seniors fall into things....

mk
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR

vento

Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?

NCRblues

What will placing an education/degree requirement on an all volunteer orginization accomplish?

We really need someone to have a B.S. in art deco history to inventory the unit supply?

This is a volunteer orginization, place an over abundance of requirements on those that do the day to day and they will walk....

Is CAP really that well staffed that we can ask the "very rural middle of the cornfields" squadron to mandate that those members dedicating their time to please go back to school and get a degree? I think not.

Time after time we complain we do not have the manpower for the things we want/required to do.

I am all for more in CAP traning to move up (espically major and above) but I am not for a degree requirement just to volunteer.

Change the "officer promotions" to include real measurement lines. Make promotions actually matter, don't just check the promotion box for anyone. Make people earn the grade, not just breath for the grade. More PME or PD or whatever we want to call it. Real experience in CAP command or staff areas, graded during an inspection or by a panel of area experts, then promote.
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on October 22, 2013, 01:36:23 am
^ And, at least in the wive's tales, it's usually some NCO making the complaints about CAP salute trollers, so how's that
same guy (who's actually fictional) going to feel about this?

Honestly, I don't care one way or the other in the abstract.

My craw is stuck because with all of the REAL PROBLEMS we're facing, this is deck chairs, and the
last thing we need right now is more background noise and distractions, nor anything else that will
potentially cause a division between members.

We've got eleventy-twelveteen regs that are obsolete or self-conflict, ES doctrine that hasn't been addressed in a nearly a decade,
and a churn rate that would shut down most businesses, yet this somehow rises to the top of the list?
That's true......but to be fair....the CMSCAP was not tasked to take care of the eleventy-twelveteen regs and ES doctorine.   That is why there's a staff.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: vento on October 22, 2013, 03:26:10 am
Makes me wonder if CAP NCO will be allowed to wear Pilot wings. Sergeant Pilot in the RM is now distant history. Or are we going to have another Frankenstein just in time for Halloween?
Yes...why not?  What's wrong with a little Frankenstein?  We got Cadets sporting pilot wings.....a pilot is a pilot.....now if you started saying "only officers can be pilots" well then you would be creating a monster.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP