Yelling != "boot camp, semper psycho"
Been to one lately? You might be surprised.
Also, since an encampment isn't boot camp, not even basics cadet training, the comparison is at the same time, inappropriate >and< troubling.
No one should be "getting into anyone's face" especially one cadet to another,No.One.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 05:43:26 PMBeen to one lately? You might be surprised.Been to what? Encampment? Yes, the last two years. My sons completed it the year before.
Quote from: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 05:54:00 PMQuote from: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 05:43:26 PMBeen to one lately? You might be surprised.Been to what? Encampment? Yes, the last two years. My sons completed it the year before.Basic Military Training.
No, but it really doesn't matter. Yelling does not equal "boot camp"! It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.
Quote from: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 06:12:13 PMNo, but it really doesn't matter. Yelling does not equal "boot camp"! It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.I thought you were advocating the opposite."!=" may be a correct symbol for that, but "≠" is more clear.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 06:00:05 PMQuote from: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 05:54:00 PMQuote from: Eclipse on October 14, 2013, 05:43:26 PMBeen to one lately? You might be surprised.Been to what? Encampment? Yes, the last two years. My sons completed it the year before.Basic Military Training.No, but it really doesn't matter. Yelling does not equal "boot camp"! It is a correlation that people continually make, but it really doesn't have any merit.
Sure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 14, 2013, 06:47:22 PMSure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either. Yelling is just awful, right?
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 14, 2013, 06:47:22 PMSure doesn't. So if they don't do it at boot, then there's really no place for it at encampment.So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either. Yelling is just awful, right? It comes down to your goals. If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine. Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year? I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level. If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).
[Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....
Never once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE.
The FMJ experience is an useful tool when used in the right application and with the proper restraint.It immediately establishes who is boss to a bunch of kids who don't understand the concept of military discipline.That said......most CAP cadets already understand this concept.While a nice "Grab you gear, get off this bus and put your toes on the line! 15, 14, 13...." may be an appropriate tool at encampment. It sets that tone. Setting up reporting statements during the shake down "Sir! What!" also sets up the attention to detail.The no-win, setting up cadets to fail is NOT a good learning tool.The full on FMJ games should start on Day one but by the end of Day two there should not be a need for it.IIRC even at USAF BMTS we by the third day or so we did not have any FMJ stuff going on. Sure our TI yelled at us when we screwed up. But the in your face just did not happen all that much. In truth it takes too much time.We did the pick them up, put them down drill, we did the "do it again" drill with reporting statements "Sir! Airman Harris Reports as Ordered" until we got it right. But we never got no win situations. That's the difference between BMTS and Encampment. Do the FMJ games early....keep them sane....but drop them and move on.
Quote from: Peeka on October 14, 2013, 07:13:05 PM[Totally different if you are yelling at other people's kids....I will yell as necessary, particularly to convey urgency or danger. As far as I'm concerned, cadets under my care are my kids. I need to teach them and protect them as my own and I take that responsibility very seriously.Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 14, 2013, 07:19:21 PMNever once was there a need to YELL IN A CADET'S FACE.Where am I saying it is? Where is anyone saying it is? Yelling at the flight to "hurry up, not fast enough let's do it again" is not yelling in people's faces or abuse in any way.
So I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either. Yelling is just awful, right?
It comes down to your goals. If all you're trying to do is an individual academic activity and are willing to fail those that don't pass, a standard classroom-type training works fine. Are parents going to accept paying $200 for their child to go to encampment to find at the end of the week their child didn't graduate and will have to pay another $200 next year? I don't think so - not for something mandatory for their child's advancement.
If academics is what you're after, encampment should not be mandatory and the required training should be offered at the squadron level. If you expect cadets to come together that quickly with all of the things we want them to learn, holding hands and singing Kumbaya isn't going to cut it unless you do away with standards (in which case, again, what's the point of encampment).
and that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.
When you started defending yelling, you came off sounding on the side of the antics listed in the OP.
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 14, 2013, 08:41:06 PMand that other video where cadets had to report to the top of the stairs, while standing in the heat, and being yelled back down for infractions. Thankfully I believe that one was pulled and is gone.Isn't that video in the new RST?I know it was circulated in a memo nationally that it was a big "no".
Quote from: Elioron on October 14, 2013, 07:07:47 PMSo I guess I shouldn't yell at my kids at home, either. Yelling is just awful, right? Actually, you shouldn't. I do it too, most parents do, but studies and experience show that it generally doesn't accomplish the ultimate goal, it just makes things worse, and unless you practice the increasingly uncommon "Nuclear Option" of corporal punishment, it eventually goes nowhere, just as countries threatening each other with military strikes are considered impotent when they don't follow-through and tyrants when they do.The first time you threaten a child and go nowhere, you're cooked, and left with nothing else in the tool bag to actually fix the problem.
An encampment's intended purpose is to enhance training received at the squadron level as well present CAP in a standardized way to provide tools and lessons that cadets bring back to their home squadrons to make things better. Considering that they need Curry to get in, drill, basic discipline, ability to function in small squads, should not be new to any of them.
Owing to the inconsistencies in training across the organization, unfortunately, far too many cadets arrive at encampmentill-prepared for the totality of the experience. Many are away from home overnight for the first time in their lives, may have no one else from their home unit attending, and might well have other issues that are either revealed or exacerbatedby the stress of the environment. IN a lot of cases yelling just shuts them down.
People can do what they will with their kids, butif you're yelling at cadets for any reason other then to get their initial attention, you're doing it wrong.