Criticism of Rangers & Blue Berets

[Майор Хаткевич]

GTM3 makes sense as most of our ops don't need much more than UDF.

[Eclipse]

Flyer.....I know what the regulations says....I'm not saying that NESA is doing anything outside of the regs.

I'm saying that any or all of the following happen.

a) The Senior GT badge NOT be awarded for completion of AGSAR school at NESA.
b) The Basic GT badge be awarded for completion of GTM 1 not GTM 3.
c) GTM 1, 2, 3 be eliminated and combined into just GTM....where the basic badge is awarded.

And I am pushing NHQ to change it.

Add my name to your list for all of the above, but I don't expect much to change.
#B & C were as it was when I joined, when NHQ changed it, I recall some of the public verbiage was specifically aimed at members more interested in the badge then the duty (i.e. "It takes too long to get to GTM1, so members quit trying...so let's give them the badge at a much earlier time to get them
engaged and enhance "retention").  IMHO this was just one more thing on the pile that watered down the program and actually work to the detriment of the intention.  We wound up with "GTL-3", ambiguity regarding what GTM3's can do, and no advantage I've seen.

[sardak]

I think the breaking into GTM3, GTM2, and GTM1 must have come around 2004 or 2005 when I left CAP and my quals expired.

Flyer

The April 2003 draft of 60-3 had only GTL, GTM and UDF and one level of IC and AL. The following month the ES Curriculum Project (ESCP) Working Group recommended splitting IC and GT into levels. The April 2004 draft of 60-3 shows the three levels of GT plus UDF, and the three levels of IC and AL. NHQ issued a final 60-3 dated May 26, 2004 accompanied by a letter stating:

3. Second, the incident commander, agency liaison, and ground team member specialties have been broken into three levels. Personnel listed in MIMS as qualified in these specialties will be retained as qualified at the lowest level of each specialty. Commanders and emergency services officers should review the qualifications of their personnel to consider upgrading them to higher levels as soon as possible.

In the qualifications for GTM2 and GTM1 this note was included: Commanders or their designees should review ground team training records to determine if current personnel meet the requirements to be qualified in this specialty and approve qualifications in MIMS as appropriate.

In other words, don't just leave everyone at a GTM3 level.

Mike

[Panache]

I had one NBB cadet who came back wearing the SAR Ribbon and find ribbons with multiple attachments. When that was corrected, he started wearing an Army MP brassard on his BDUs. When that was corrected, he transferred to a unit where he was the only cadet in a chartered flight and is now essentially untouchable.

If he's the only cadet in that unit, who's he showing off too, exactly?

[flyboy53]

I had one NBB cadet who came back wearing the SAR Ribbon and find ribbons with multiple attachments. When that was corrected, he started wearing an Army MP brassard on his BDUs. When that was corrected, he transferred to a unit where he was the only cadet in a chartered flight and is now essentially untouchable.

If he's the only cadet in that unit, who's he showing off too, exactly?

That's the point. He was kept in check with his attitude until he transferred to a unit where he wasn't going to be challenged.

[sarmed1]

I personally never agreed with the GTM split, I guess that from a start to finish completion time it made sense.  I personally would have also held off on the badge award until GTM1..... ie Fully Qualified.

Mk

[Flying Pig]

I had one NBB cadet who came back wearing the SAR Ribbon and find ribbons with multiple attachments. When that was corrected, he started wearing an Army MP brassard on his BDUs. When that was corrected, he transferred to a unit where he was the only cadet in a chartered flight and is now essentially untouchable.

If he's the only cadet in that unit, who's he showing off too, exactly?

That's the point. He was kept in check with his attitude until he transferred to a unit where he wasn't going to be challenged.

He was a CAP cadet wearing Army MP insignia?  What was that all about?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Maybe a Guardsman?

[Luis R. Ramos]

SARMED-

...also held off on the badge award until GTM1..... ie Fully Qualified...

Which badge for the GTM1? The Senior Badge or the plain one?

We always chastise cadets because they use text lingo. Or other grammar mistakes. Yet we senior members also lapse sometimes.

As of now, the GTM1 rating, if taken when at NESA advanced school, fully qualifies the member for the Senior Badge!

Flyer

Flyer

[Luis R. Ramos]

MP brassard?

We seniors sometimes encourage this attitude...

Tell me you have never been at least once to an Encampment, Bivouac, or other activity in which cadets have worn a brassard with an obvious military connection... "Officer of the Day," "OD," medical brassard with subdued colors on one side non-subdued on the other...

But MP? It takes the cake...

Flyer

[Storm Chaser]

MP brassard?

We seniors sometimes encourage this attitude...

I've seen my fair share of senior members wearing unauthorized military insignias or authorized insignias (both military and CAP) on the wrong place. My "favorite" are those who want to show more "bling" than what's authorized, so they just find creative places in the uniform to put them on. At the last wing conference I attended, for example, I saw a major wearing four specialty track badges (one on each pocket, one above the name tag and one above the ribbons), when only two are authorized (one centered on each pocket).

[Eclipse]

I've seen my fair share of senior members wearing unauthorized military insignias or authorized insignias (both military and CAP) on the wrong place. My "favorite" are those who want to show more "bling" than what's authorized, so they just find creative places in the uniform to put them on. At the last wing conference I attended, for example, I saw a major wearing four specialty track badges (one on each pocket, one above the name tag and one above the ribbons), when only two are authorized (one centered on each pocket).

+1 - or subdued military badges in between white on blue for a total of 3+, even seen 4, on BDUs.

[sarmed1]

SARMED-

...also held off on the badge award until GTM1..... ie Fully Qualified...

Which badge for the GTM1? The Senior Badge or the plain one?

We always chastise cadets because they use text lingo. Or other grammar mistakes. Yet we senior members also lapse sometimes.

As of now, the GTM1 rating, if taken when at NESA advanced school, fully qualifies the member for the Senior Badge!

Flyer

Flyer

I was speaking specifically in regards to award of a badge for qualification, not in relation to the completion of a school.  At the time of the split from GTM to GTM's 3, 2 & 1 I agreed that it was a long and sometimes difficult process to fully qualify someone, and it was easier to have them at least minimally qualified (GTM3) while working toward GTM1. However, what I disagreed with was awarding the badge at the GTM 3 level.  Partially because I looked (and honestly, still look) at GTM3 & GTM 2 as not being FULLY GTM qualified.  Why award a badge to someone that isnt capable of doing all of the tasks expected of a GTM?  More specifically, if I recall correctly, prior to the split, wernt there additional requirements to the GTM badge besides just GTM qualified?  Werent there some level of mission participation and a First aid card requirement as well? or is the cloud of age confusing that with some other award?

mk

[Eclipse]

More specifically, if I recall correctly, prior to the split, wernt there additional requirements to the GTM badge besides just GTM qualified?  Werent there some level of mission participation and a First aid card requirement as well? or is the cloud of age confusing that with some other award?

Just 2 missions and first aid, but of course the SQTR was a lot longer, and you had to be GTM1 before you could get GTL.

There was some discussion early-on when they made the change that a GTM 1 was "more proficient" because it would require 6 missions to get to that level.  The people making that assumption / assertion are apparently not familiar with the check-box mentality
of many members, especially cadets.

Why even bother with GTM2&1?  You get the badge at 3, and can go directly to GTL from there, and the limitations to what a GTM3 may, or may not do are both unclear, and worse, largely ignored by many GBDs and other mission staff - when I raise the issue I get crickets.  If you're training to be an asset, things just got harder, if you're just a badge collector, things got easier.

Which do you think helps retain member we actually want to keep?

The 3-2-1 split gives the badge too early, and then raises the bar to actual effectiveness, meaning we ultimately have a lesser trained force.

[Luis R. Ramos]

SAR-

Basically what you are saying is not give a badge at all for GTM3 or 2. Give the Basic Badge after attaining GTM1, and give the Senior Badge to GTL. No Advanced School graduate would get the Senior Badge, because it would produce GTM2 and 1.

If I recall correctly, before the split you earned the GT Badge Basic. Requirements for GTM included both CPR and First Aid. Basically all the tasks now separate back then were together. And the same two sorties, real or training.

Later I can look up the old 101 form used to request the 101 card. I stillhave them...

Flyer

[Eclipse]

If I recall correctly, before the split you earned the GT Badge Basic. Requirements for GTM included both CPR and First Aid. Basically all the tasks now separate back then were together. And the same two sorties, real or training.

That's correct.  CPR was dropped in the split.  Most people got it done in the same FA class.

[SAREXinNY]

I spend a LOT of my free time doing ES training (at least 1 full weekend a month, but often more than that), and I have a hard enough time keeping my GTM3 current due to all of the red tape recently implemented at NY wing.  I don't think I'll ever be able to get my 2 or 1 or GTL.

[Luis R. Ramos]

SAREX-

I think I remember who you are. If I am right, you live in the city. In the city, we need more UDF than GTM. I suggest you keep trying for GTM3 and GTL. GTM2 and 1 are nice to have and know but not required for GTL, so if you actually get some tasks signed off for 2 and 1, just say "thank you" but do not sweat them. Move 2 and 1 to the bottom of your list...

At least that is my plan of action. Keep GTM3 active, get GTL and UDF not necessarily in that order. Work as I can other specialties into as I can include them.

Flyer

[Jaison009]

Flyer I believe you are correct. I was a GTM and ST III for much of my cadet career (1996-2002) and could not get my GTL as a cadet because of rules surrounding the CAP DL at the time. Our SM leadership stayed with the van and between myself and two other cadet officers we ran the GT and UDF missions. I always felt the GTM3,2,1 was to respond to criticism regarding CAP GTM vs. SARTECH III, II and I. I don't know if it is even worth trying to get my GT again except if I want to progress eventually I will need it. I think getting only my UDF would be easier but not as useful in AR so I am torn. I know my personal limitations and I don't have the time to train or the physical fitness to ground pound through the brush all day anymore. What I do have is a background in search management and tactics and incident management which can't be used without GTM. I am going to start on MSA and we will see what happens from there.   

I am sorry, now your feelings came out clearer.

I do not agree with you about rescinding the award of the Senior Ground Team Badge to GTM1 and GTM2.

However when I initially qualified as GTM and GTL well, in 1998 or 1999 it was GTM then GTL. Back then it was clearer. So what you want... could be based in historical precedence.

I think the breaking into GTM3, GTM2, and GTM1 must have come around 2004 or 2005 when I left CAP and my quals expired.

Flyer

[Walkman]

Continuing the thread tangent...

I was thinking, considering the extent of most of our missions, that GTM3 & 2 SQTRs could be combined into a GTM rating, then GTM1 & GTL into a new GTL rating.