My BBDU experiment: after two years, I be done with this nonsense

Started by NM SAR, September 24, 2013, 05:45:46 am

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Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 04, 2013, 03:50:10 pm
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 03:48:16 pm
Folks with medical reason can't wear AF uniforms either. As for the uncomfortable conversations...we all know most people don't do it.


And if you will notice any time I have mentioned H/W and grooming I have also noted that those with a valid medical reason were excluded.


Since when? Theyvhave no more recourse on the H/W chart than the mythical bodybuilder.

abdsp51

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 03:54:07 pm
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 04, 2013, 03:50:10 pm
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 03:48:16 pm
Folks with medical reason can't wear AF uniforms either. As for the uncomfortable conversations...we all know most people don't do it.


And if you will notice any time I have mentioned H/W and grooming I have also noted that those with a valid medical reason were excluded.


Since when? Theyvhave no more recourse on the H/W chart than the mythical bodybuilder.


They are not excluded from the H/W requirements yes, however I throw that in there as my pov is that those who say dump the AF style are those who willingly do not want to meet H/W or abide by grooming.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 04, 2013, 05:08:48 pm
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 03:54:07 pm
Quote from: abdsp51 on October 04, 2013, 03:50:10 pm
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 03:48:16 pm
Folks with medical reason can't wear AF uniforms either. As for the uncomfortable conversations...we all know most people don't do it.


And if you will notice any time I have mentioned H/W and grooming I have also noted that those with a valid medical reason were excluded.


Since when? Theyvhave no more recourse on the H/W chart than the mythical bodybuilder.


They are not excluded from the H/W requirements yes, however I throw that in there as my pov is that those who say dump the AF style are those who willingly do not want to meet H/W or abide by grooming.


I haven't seen much of that personally. Typically those who are anti-AF uniforms feel we should be more removed from the AF, ala RM and Sundog types.

shuman14

Which is why I've been advocating a military-esque style uniform for a Corporate Uniform.

The white and grey doesn't seem to cut it for the more martial minded members yet as many have pointed out for various reasons their are some members that "will not" or "cannot" comply with the USAF requirements to wear a USAF-style uniform.

Does the BBDU uniform look bad in and of itself... no not at all.

It looks bad when 20 CAP members show up for a function and 18 are in woodland BDU and two are in BBDU.

If all twenty had shown up in BBDU THAT would look right.

So, as in the other thread, I'm advocating scraping for all Senior members of CAP of the USAF-style, grey/white and and previous authorized blue Corporate Service uniforms and go to ONE (1) single military-esque style uniform for the Senior members.

I suggest a khaki/silver tan Army Air Corps style uniform with some USAF blue "highlights" thrown in to continue to show your link to the current parent Service of the Air Force.

Retain the USAF blue Flight Caps (ie Garrison Cover), the USAF blue Combination Caps (ie Barracks Cover), USAF blue four-in-hand necktie for males and USAF blue necktab for females and the USAF blue uni-sex belt.

Those are your "USAF Blue highlights".

Adopt a khaki/silver tan four pocket service coat, trousers, and an aviator-style (ie epaulets and pleated flapped pockets)  long and short sleeve shirt as the SOLE authorized Senior Corporate uniform.

Wear the current CAP hat badges, "C.A.P." cutouts as collar brass, silver name tag, silver buttons, pin on ranks (and USAF blue sew on enlisted ranks) and a left arm Wing Patch on this uniform. This will be your "Class A" Service uniform.

You turn this into "Dress Khaki" by changing the shirt to a white dress shirt with males switching to a USAF blue bowtie, while females retain the USAF blue necktab.

For those who already have or wish to acquire a Mess uniform... the currently authorized USAF-style Mess Uniforms would be retained.

For a "Class B" uniform (ie shirt sleeve uniform) there two ways to go:

Way 1: Wear pin on rank (right collar) and a C.A.P. cutout (left collar)

or

Way 2: Adopt a epaulet rank slide in either khaki or USAF blue. (Someone pointed out that the USAF "might" object to blue rank slides.)

On all uniforms allow prior-service military awards and badges to be worn (a MAJOR criticism of the current and former Corporate uniform policies).

As to the "extras" such as the all weather coat, windbreaker, woolly-pulley sweater, cardigan sweater, etc all in USAF blue... either continue to allow their use (with USAF approval) or have a REALLY generous wear-out period and then adopt khaki/silver tan versions.

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As to the polo uniform, again a very generous wear-out date on the grey trousers and then switch to khaki... either civilian, tactical, or even authorize the Service Trousers from the Khaki Corporate uniform described above.

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As to a Field uniform, again allow a generous wear out date on the Woodland BDU and adopt the BBDU as the SOLE Field uniform for Senior members or allow a generous wear out date on both the BDU and BBDU uniforms and adopt a currently commercially available khaki colored BDU uniform.

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As to a Flight uniform, again allow a generous wear out date on any USAF-style flight suits (ie sage-green ?) in current use and adopt a blue for khaki currently commercially available flight suit.

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By doing this you put all Senior members in ONE Corporate uniform based on mission (ie Mess/Dress, Service, Polo, Field, or Flight) for a UNIFORM appearance. You also "color brand" CAP to a khaki uniform... which is your historical root uniform which predates the USAF style.

Professional, clean, martial... yet NOT Military, and most importantly UNIFORMITY among the Senior members.

Of course what does this non-CAP member Army Major know about ANYTHING... so of course it will never work.  :P

I stand ready for the incoming fire from the usual suspects.  ;)


Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Майор Хаткевич

To be fair, I have no idea why an Army Major NOT in CAP cares so much either.

abdsp51

It's a typical mentality of telling folks how bad they are and how to fix it. All over Khaki really thats more bland than grey and not cost effective to members either. Not to mention there is the formal dress uniform as well that hasn't been considered.  Adopting one uniform would take an act of god to happen.

shuman14

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 08:43:22 pm
To be fair, I have no idea why an Army Major NOT in CAP cares so much either.


fair point... how about this... an Army major that is considering joining CAP.

One of the reasons I came to CAPTalk was to gather intel and see if I'd "fit in" with the organization based on the conversations with the members I meet online here.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

abdsp51

Quote from: shuman14 on October 04, 2013, 09:16:15 pm
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 08:43:22 pm
To be fair, I have no idea why an Army Major NOT in CAP cares so much either.


fair point... how about this... an Army major that is considering joining CAP.

One of the reasons I came to CAPTalk was to gather intel and see if I'd "fit in" with the organization based on the conversations with the embers I meet online here.


How you fit in should be based on the units in your area not CAPTalk. 

Eclipse




Luis R. Ramos

So we have an officer who decided to gather intelligence and offer advice at the same time?

???

When I was growing up, I was taught to join an organization and wait until I learn about it before trying to change the culture.

:-\

I guess this is another demonstration on how our society has changed. Instant change gratification. Want food? Go to a McDonalds, don't wait.

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

abdsp51

Quote from: flyer333555 on October 04, 2013, 09:30:00 pm
So we have an officer who decided to gather intelligence and offer advice at the same time?


In my experience especially with all my interactions with the Army that has been the mindset.

shuman14

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 04, 2013, 08:51:33 pm
It's a typical mentality of telling folks how bad they are and how to fix it. All over Khaki really that's more bland than grey and not cost effective to members either. Not to mention there is the formal dress uniform as well that hasn't been considered.  Adopting one uniform would take an act of god to happen.


Ahhh, the "usual suspects" have arrived.  ;D

To address your points:

I have never said anyone was/is "bad". If everyone was happy with the status quo of the current CAP uniforms there would not be so many discussions here on CAPTalk about them. I am simply putting forth a suggestion... take it for what it's worth.

Khaki is bland... in your opinion... grey is ugly in mine.

No uniform purchase is cost effective in a volunteer organization it's simply part of joining. If the USAF was to change it's uniform tomorrow, it would effect CAP's USAF-style uniform immediately. You and I both know that the second that USAF/CAP published their new regulation on how that new USAF-style uniform could be worn by CAP members... there would be CAP members who would show up in it the VERY NEXT MEETING. Some people just have to have the newest of the new in everything. Your argument of "cost effectiveness" is a straw man at best.

I considered the Mess and Dress uniforms above. Retain the current USAF-style Mess Uniform (ie tuxedo uniform) and add a white shirt and blue bowtie to my proposed Khaki Service Uniform to change it from a Class A uniform to a Dress Uniform. Most of the Armed Services already do this to change their Service Uniform to a Dress Uniform.  Normally as a "cost effective" measure for enlisted personnel Some examples:

Army Green Class A  to Dress Greens: Change light green shirt to white shirt add black bowtie and remove DUI from epaulet straps.

Army ASU to Dress Blues: add black bowtie, remove DUI from enlisted uniform epaulet straps.

Coast Guard Service Dress Blue (Bravo) to Dinner Dress Blue: change light blue shirt to white shirt add bowtie.

I have also seen USAF ROTC cadets and Navy NROTC midshipmen change their Class A Service uniforms to dress uniforms by adding a bowtie (Navy) or changing to a white shirt and adding a bowtie (USAF) not sure of the exact terminology for these uniforms so I just described them.

White shirt, blue bowtie and khaki uniform may not be the best dress uniform but it would work and be cost effective.

You and I agree... Divine intervention may be required.   
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Майор Хаткевич

USAF changed a uniform six years ago. Still waiting for it to affect CAP.

shuman14

Quote from: abdsp51 on October 04, 2013, 09:20:04 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on October 04, 2013, 09:16:15 pm
Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 08:43:22 pm
To be fair, I have no idea why an Army Major NOT in CAP cares so much either.


fair point... how about this... an Army major that is considering joining CAP.

One of the reasons I came to CAPTalk was to gather intel and see if I'd "fit in" with the organization based on the conversations with the embers I meet online here.


How you fit in should be based on the units in your area not CAPTalk.


In your opinion, if I like or dislike the picture I get of CAP was based solely on CAPTalk, then you might be right, but I'm looking for a bigger picture.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

shuman14

Quote from: usafaux2004 on October 04, 2013, 10:02:28 pm
USAF changed a uniform six years ago. Still waiting for it to affect CAP.


I "assume" you are talking about ABUs? The second the USAF authorizes the CAP to wear ABUs there will be members both Senior and Cadets that will arrive the very next meeting they go to in the CAP authorized ABU version of the CAP uniform.

I'll put money on that bet any day of the week and twice on Sundays.  ;)
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

shuman14

Quote from: flyer333555 on October 04, 2013, 09:30:00 pm
So we have an officer who decided to gather intelligence and offer advice at the same time?

???

When I was growing up, I was taught to join an organization and wait until I learn about it before trying to change the culture.

:-\

I guess this is another demonstration on how our society has changed. Instant change gratification. Want food? Go to a McDonalds, don't wait.

Flyer


Then you should close CAPTALK to non-members. Since it is open source and allows anyone to join and voice opinions.

Serious question, why do you reject my opinions and suggestion so readily? Do they hold no merit? Are they silly or stupid? I've tried to be respectful of the rules of CAPTALK, the members of CAP both Senior and Cadet, and the opinions of those who's actual experience within CAP and the Military are far greater than mine?

So why the "negative waves" for everything I post/suggest/opine?  :-\
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

abdsp51

Quote from: shuman14 on October 04, 2013, 09:52:05 pm
I have also seen USAF ROTC cadets and Navy NROTC midshipmen change their Class A Service uniforms to dress uniforms by adding a bowtie (Navy) or changing to a white shirt and adding a bowtie (USAF) not sure of the exact terminology for these uniforms so I just described them.

White shirt, blue bowtie and khaki uniform may not be the best dress uniform but it would work and be cost effective.

You and I agree... Divine intervention may be required.


You obviously by this have no idea on the different uniforms for the AF, and no we do not agree by any means.  And negative waves well I go back to my initial posting with you about being an outsider and telling us how broke we are and how to fix it.  And sorry your opinion and suggest for an all members uniform is hideous.  I like grey and yes we could use a different color, however that is what is currently authorized for us to wear.  If you want to have your opinions and suggests hold merit and value join up and go through the process.  Until then it is an outsider telling us how broke we are and how to fix it. 

And changing to Khaki is not cost effective by any means for membership and that needs to be a deciding factor for such a major upheaval in the organization.

Luis R. Ramos

Put it this way.

I am not a military policeman, never even have been in Law Enforcement. Have studied their methods and have been close to some LE types and we have talked. A lot.

With that in mind, if I walk to you and state "Why did you arrest that person? There was no reason to arrest that person, just watching him/her would have been enough." Or "there was no probable cause."

What is your reaction?

:)

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

shuman14

CAP is not broken by any means... you do great work and I admire that.

So if I send my fifty dollar check in... my opinion will matter?  ???

OK please explain how any other uniform purchase is "cost effective" but khaki is not?

CAP does not issue uniforms to Senior members so every one buys their own, correct?

Uniforms wear out with use and need to be replaced, correct?

If khaki, or any other color was adopted, it would be the "replacement" for the items that have worn out... hence a "wear out date".

When the Army switch from BDU to ACU... I wore the BDUs until the very last minute, I had 15+ years worth of them in three foot lockers. Then I switched to ACUs. I still wear Greens and will until the fourth Quarter of FY14 when I can't anymore.

BTW, I then donate all my BDUs  to a local CAP unit to issue to cadets. As to my Greens  I suspect that Army JROTC will still be using Greens for a while so I'll give them to the local HS next year.

So if khaki was adopted, Seniors could donate their Blues to the cadets, cost effective and tax deductible.

If you make the wear out dates long enough no one will complain about having to buy a new uniform.

Some will have it the next day, others will not, and CAP will continue to look Hodge-Podge  in uniforms... for a short while.

Once the wear out dates kick in, everyone will be in one uniform and hopefully happy. Or at least less unhappy.

Again, just my opinion.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: shuman14 on October 04, 2013, 09:52:05 pm
If the USAF was to change it's uniform tomorrow, it would effect CAP's USAF-style uniform immediately.


This is what I'm talking about. Not at all how CAP operates.