Initial promotion of an attorney (since 1991) with master's in psychology

[EMT-83]

When you interview for CG Aux, be sure to bring a printout of this thread. You'll want to make sure that they fully understand how awesome you really are,

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm 23, a college grad, and a Captain. You, Mr. CAP member, don't need to salute me. I wouldn't want it.

[mwewing]

Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.

As a 1st Lt, I could say the same thing regarding your possible promotion to Captain. I am not inclined to salute self-centered, disrespectful people, simply because they have obtained a graduate degree.

As others have pointed out, CAP grade is awarded for a variety of reasons that you may or may not be aware of. It is important that we respect everyone's contributions. As an example, I recently met a CAP Major who is 1 year younger than me, and got advanced grade because she is a CFII. I bring valuable skills and experience to the unit that she doesn't have. However, she has been a mission pilot, attended NESA, and is very active in ES Ground Operations as well. She has been an incredible resource for me during my training for Mission Scanner and GTM3, in addition to her willingness to work with and train other members. In time, my abilities will benefit CAP, and I am sure I will be promoted based on the caliber of my performance, and my ability to use those skills in areas of greater responsibility. You don't necessarily know what led a person to their grade, but you should respect them regardless. Someone up that person's chain of command deemed them worthy of that grade. I gladly salute that Major out of respect for her contributions to CAP, the unit, and of course to me; and I would respect her grade even if none of that were true.

If you come to CAP as a licensed attorney and express interest in serving as a wing legal officer, your commander should help you prepare for that service, and connect you with people who can assist in that endeavor. It is also possible to serve as a staff officer in the unit, while accepting additional duties at group/wing level. This could allow you to continue serving the local cadets, while CAP benefits from your legal expertise. Without having all the facts, I can only suppose that your commander's unwillingness to even speak with you relates to the general attitude you present. If I were your commander, I would be unwilling to recommend you for wing staff, advanced promotion, or anything else, until/unless your attitude is adjusted to fit the core values of this organization.

The simple fact that everyone posting on this forum thread (a group of people who seldom all agree on anything) believe that your attitude is a major factor here, should tell you something. I hope you decide to stay in CAP, regardless of any decision on your advanced grade. If you have as much to offer the unit as you indicate, there are many ways through which you can serve in a meaningful way. Finally, just because you don't get the advanced grade now, doesn't mean in a year you might not be in a position to serve as legal officer, and can take the advanced grade at that time. If it is something you want, you will look for ways to grow in the organization, and make sure that wing staff know who you are, and what you can do.

[Storm Chaser]

If that is your attitude, I too would be hesitant to promote you. The regulation is very clear on what constitutes grounds for an advanced promotion. I can infer from your posts that the main reason you want to be a captain is because you think you're better than your commander and other senior members that you've encountered with lesser education or professional accomplishments. But let me ask you this, what do you know about CAP? What is your CAP experience? What have you done so far for this organization? Or for your squadron? What do you bring to the table?

If you just want to be a captain because you think you deserve it more than your commander, then you're in for a big surprise. Do the work first. Contribute to your squadron. And learn as much as you can about CAP, its missions and the specialties/duty positions you're assigned to. Then, just then, you can start thinking about promotions. If that's not good enough for you, you can try becoming a Legal Officer, but you'll have to do the work.

That being said, I think CAP may not be the right place for you. And this is coming from a major in both CAP and the Air Force with enough experience and professional and educational qualifications to be able to tell you that, if I was you commander, lawyer or not, I wouldn't even promote you to 2d Lt at this time. You're just not ready.

[Flying Pig]

See I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.

When I was an 8 year infantry Sergeant I felt the same way about snot nosed 2LTs!!  Still whipped it out. I think you are taking the salute a little to personal.  Just have fun with the program. Most SMs dont really salute each other much anyway.  And if they do, so what. It doesnt lessen any of your accomplishments. 

[Storm Chaser]

See I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.

When I was an 8 year infantry Sergeant I felt the same way about snot nosed 2LTs!!  Still whipped it out. I think you are taking the salute a little to personal.  Just have fun with the program. Most SMs dont really salute each other much anyway.  And if they do, so what. It doesnt lessen any of your accomplishments.

That's different from the situation described by the OP. You had 8 years of experience in the Army and Infantry; the 2LTs had a fraction of that experience. Most captains in CAP have at least 3 years of CAP experience plus corresponding PD. Some unit commanders may have less, but they still have that command experience in CAP. And those coming from the military bring that experience as well. That's not the case of the OP. He's the one with barely any CAP experience or qualifications. The one skill that he has that could warrant an advanced promotion (his qualification as an attorney), is the one he doesn't want to use in benefit of CAP. So why does he want to be a Capt? So the he too can be saluted? That's just not good enough.

I wouldn't want anyone in my unit that looks down on others base on their professional or educational backgrounds or lack of. I want people who want to work regardless of personal recognition.

[ColonelJack]

When you interview for CG Aux, be sure to bring a printout of this thread. You'll want to make sure that they fully understand how awesome you really are,

Heck, let's just forward a copy to the CGAux.  I'm certain they'll have the proper reception for this guy.

Jack

[spaatzmom]

Ok, well thanks for all replies! And thanks for judging me so harshly everyone. I'll take my skills and knowledge elsewhere, maybe to the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I hear they have a better reputation than CAP anyway (good ole boy and good ole girl thing) and, further their not so tied up in the saluting, rank, etc. Lastly, those who were so quick to judge me ASSUMED that I could not complete the Office Basic Course and Squadron Leadership course within 6 months. NOR did anyone catch the fact, that with ONLY 6 seniors in the unit, the captain never had more than 10 words for me in past 5 months. Also, I was actively helping the cadets before my membership went through, albeit selling candy bars at break time and other mundane tasks, that I ALEADY do as a band booster and volunteer with my son's community theater group. At least in these undervalued and underused positions, I do not have to salute a bunch of egotistical, very overweight, and never do PT bunch, wearing costume jewelry folks no less. 
Oh and lastly, while selling candy bars and doing other mundane tasks for CAP, this egotistical soon-to-be departed CAP member was never given proper information on how to become a legal officer in CAP, nor the opportunity to apply. Otherwise, assuming I would have been accepted as a Legal Officer this entire conversation would be moot!

Really?  Do you honestly think that after making disrespectful, inflammatory, and insulting remarks about the membership they would not call you out on it?  Nice try but all it did was prove the belief that you are of the belief that you are superior to the rest of us and we should be oh so grateful for your very existence not only on earth but within CAP.  I don't think so.

[MSG Mac]

If you completed SLS and OBC good for you. As for " this egotistical soon-to-be departed CAP member was never given proper information on how to become a legal officer in CAP, nor the opportunity to apply. Otherwise, assuming I would have been accepted as a Legal Officer this entire conversation would be moot" I would have thought an attorney would have been trained in doing research and have the ability to pick up the phone to contact and interview with the Wing Legal Officer.  Elsewise you have stated your intentions to leave, and in the process burned several bridges. I hope you discussed these issues with the maligned Squadron or Group Commander before you left, maybe they could have been redressed.

[Luis R. Ramos]

In all organizations there is an adage well worth  remembering: Engage your brain before you speak. Here is an adaptation: Engage your brain before your hands!



You know you stuck your foot too deep in it when...



...when even spaatzmom cannot find any worth in your message(s)...



...when all, but everyone in CAPTalk unite posting messages critical of you...



...when no one, but no one is even posting any helpful message.



I hope you have learned by now when you should just zip it...

Flyer

[NorCal21]

Having said that, and having had to come up the hard way in life, I'm do not feel inclined to salute non-college educated stay-at-home moms simply because they have been in CAP longer than me.

I was with you right up to this final statement. That was uncalled for. This attitude has been seen even on AD. Could you imagine the chaos we'd have in the military if we Marines didn't salute the AF because they don't have to work as hard for their rank as I did? Doesn't matter. What an AF Captain has to do to obtain that rank and what I would have to do in the Marines is very different. Doesn't matter. Even what two Marines obtaining captain with one being from supply and one from recon is completely different.

The point is that it doesn't matter what someone did to obtain their rank so as long as it was within regulations. As a former corporal in the Marines I don't even receive the respect of the AF as being an NCO as the AF doesn't see an E-4 as an NCO yet they would automatically promote me to E-5 if I made the move to the AF. They recognize that my duties are the same as their E-5. See how convoluted this whole thing gets?

You are not responsible for anyone but yourself. You do what you have to do to obtain the rank you want. Don't worry how others got theirs.

[abdsp51]

Let him/her go.  Hopefully some has emailed the group and squadron cc about this.  If this is the attitude displayed they need to be shown the door.  Hopefully they have more class, finese and integrity in the courtroom.

[NorCal21]

"We salute the rank, not the person".

Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.

[Critical AOA]

The best way to avoid having to salute someone who you do not want to salute is to not wear the Air Force style uniform or simply just do not don't salute.   No one is going to write you up or give you a hard time if you walk past them and do not salute.  C&C in CAP is pretty meaningless outside of the cadet program anyway. In the senior world it is about accomplishing an actual real world mission. The important thing is to contribute your skills to the organization in the best way possible. 

Now, while I will agree with others that your attitude could stand some improvement, probably a lot; I will also state that many of those who came to CAP without any skills, licenses or degrees that would give them the possibility of advanced promotion hate the concept of advanced promotion and resent anyone who uses it.

In the end you are probably pushing too hard and your commander is probably one of those who do not like the program and might even feel threatened a bit and thus is pushing back.  A little give and take might be in order from both of you.

[Eclipse]

The best way to avoid having to salute someone who you do not want to salute is to not wear the Air Force style uniform or simply just do not don't salute.   No one is going to write you up or give you a hard time if you walk past them and do not salute.  C&C in CAP is pretty meaningless outside of the cadet program anyway. In the senior world it is about accomplishing an actual real world mission. The important thing is to contribute your skills to the organization in the best way possible. 

Wearing a corporate uniform in no way negates or relieves the requirements to express full customs and courtesies to superior officers, including salutes.

Accomplishing the mission and rendering courtesies are not somehow "separate", nor are they specific to being within earshot of cadets.

Please don't propagate this urban myth.

[MSG Mac]

You seem to have a feeling that you are the most educated person on this continent.  In my unit most of our Senior Members are college graduates. Most with Master's and at least 4 with Doctorates (including 2 JD's). None of them are crying about not having been appointed directly to the grade of Captain. They all started as Senior Members and have progressed through the program. As stated earlier, contact the Wing Legal Officer about being appointed as an Assistant Legal Officer. As far as getting an advanced appointment as being "Exceptionally Qualified" they are few and far between and being a Lawyer with a secondary degree in psychology isn't in any way, shape or means exceptional. In  40 years of CAP service I have seen only two in my former wing that qualified. One was a Major who served as acting Wing Commander for three months when his predecessor died in office. The other was an AF Reservist and CAP member whose assignment was working with CAP. Because of the conflict of interest, he was given the choice of quitting CAP or his AF assignment. He chose the AF. when he finally retired we were able to get him Major based on his AF grade and than LTC based on the fact he met all the PD requirements and would have been a LTC, if he hadn't had to give up CAP for the higher good. Both gentlemen later wound up as Wing Commanders.   

[Flying Pig]

"We salute the rank, not the person".

Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.

Were you an MP doing gate duty?  Because I was never taught to salute cars and never did nor did I ever hear anyone instructed to salute stickers on cars. Not even at NCO school did I ever hear of that practice.

[NorCal21]

"We salute the rank, not the person".

Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.

Were you an MP doing gate duty?  Because I was never taught to salute cars and never did nor did I ever hear anyone instructed to salute stickers on cars. Not even at NCO school did I ever hear of that practice.

Were you in the Marines and if so what years? I was taught that, and it was expected of me, at every duty station in the Marines I served starting in 1994. Nope, I was a mechanic. The closest I got to gate duty was camp guard.

[stillamarine]

"We salute the rank, not the person".

Ain't that the truth? When I was in boot camp in the Marines we were always taught to salute a vehicle with a blue DoD decal. And if we couldn't tell what color it was we saluted anyway. You obviously aren't saluting the car or even the decal. You're simply saluting the rank of the person who's most likely in the vehicle. You don't even have to see the person. I can't tell you how often I saluted 16 year old girl.

Were you an MP doing gate duty?  Because I was never taught to salute cars and never did nor did I ever hear anyone instructed to salute stickers on cars. Not even at NCO school did I ever hear of that practice.

Were you in the Marines and if so what years? I was taught that, and it was expected of me, at every duty station in the Marines I served starting in 1994. Nope, I was a mechanic. The closest I got to gate duty was camp guard.

He was.

And yeah I remember saluting cars. It really sucked on Oki when the officer sticker was a little white O on top of the DOD sticker.

[RiverAux]

I don't think we want him in the CG Aux either.