Service coat question.

[Storm Chaser]

I see it as a perk to not wear the service coat...

Having everyone in the same uniform is greatly beneficial.  If the cadets are in blues, they all wear the same level.  Period.  At least, that's always been my policy.

Agree. I think everyone should be wearing the same uniform combination (or equivalent) to meetings regardless of rank or staff status. I don't think we should restrict a uniform combination just based on rank. How would senior members react to such a policy? Only field grade officers (Maj-Col) are allowed to wear flight suits. Or only certain staff positions are allowed to wear the black leather jacket. Or only members meeting certain grooming standards are allowed to wear an AF-style uniform... oh, wait!

You get the point.

[LCG8928]

My squadron only allows cadets to wear one class of blues when we wear them. Personally I agree with this because it helps promote uniformity. I don't agree with the banning of the service coat for those below officers firstly because there's no regulatory precedent for it and secondly because although the class A looks nicer it is not an indicator of rank and can be worn by every cadet.

[Danger]

I think it would be acceptable to not give out service coats to lower ranking cadets, but banning them may just be ridiculous. Understand why uniformity takes precidence over elitism. You're an NCO, so demonstrate the standard of the uniform to the cadets beneath you. Save your jacket for formal events. IMHO Service jackets aren't all they're cracked up to be.

Or if you want to find a loophole around his "Only Officers get service dress jackets"- Be in honor guard. You get the service cap too.

[Walkman]

IMHO there's a good leadership lesson here:

Good leaders don't just issue orders and demand obedience. Good leaders issue orders, explain the reason for the orders so that those that follow do so willingly. (YMMV - certain situations are different: combat etc...). Good leadership also includes keeping the followers informed on how things are run.

Scenario:
c/LT: Alright brand new cadets, as you're getting your uniforms together for the first time, here's some unit policies you need to know about. First, we restrict the wear of the service coat to cadet officers. It creates better uniformity within ranks and its motivating to know as you advance you'll be able to wear one, too.

DCC: Hey Cadet, congratulations on crossing into the NCO ranks. Keep up the good work. You'll look great wearing full service dress in a little while!

CC: Chief, you're progressing very well. Get with Capt. Smith and he'll help you find a service coat for your blues when you promote.

Telling people the regs up front sets expectations. If the OP had know as a c/AB that the coats was restricted, this wouldn't have been a big deal.

[jeders]

Here's something I find interesting, everyone here seems to be in the uniformity camp and is limiting wear to the lowest common denominator, not that I disagree with that at all. A number of years ago when I toured Annapolis, there policy was almost 180 degrees from that. They set a minimum dress uniform, and then any cadet may choose to wear a higher class of dress uniform, but not a lower one. In CAP parlance, let's say the minimum is long sleeve with tie, so no one can wear any form of short sleeve combo, but anyone can wear the service coat combo.

[Storm Chaser]

I'm all for uniformity and the above examples are all good ones. I feel that this may be an acceptable policy for squadron meetings and certain activities. I don't like, however, the idea of a blanket prohibition. The reason for this is that if a cadet airman or NCO wants to attend a CAP banquet, for example, why wouldn't he be allowed to wear a service dress or semiformal uniform like everyone else? Again setting local policies to ensure uniformity is one thing, but blanket restrictions based on rank serve no good purpose IMHO.

[lordmonar]

Storm.....I don't think anyone is suggesting this sort of policy applying everywhere.

And of course the activity director gets to set policy for his/her activity.

[Storm Chaser]

Storm.....I don't think anyone is suggesting this sort of policy applying everywhere.

And of course the activity director gets to set policy for his/her activity.

That's not what I said. But unless this policy is communicated clearly, especially to junior cadets, they may not understand that they can wear a service dress uniform at a Wing Conference banquet or other formal event. These junior cadets normally don't spend too much time reading regulations (if the read them at all). Many new and junior cadets may simply understand this as 'cadets can't wear service dress uniforms unless they're officers' and think this is across the board. So it's important that these and any other policies are communicated and explained clearly.

[abdsp51]

That's not what I said. But unless this policy is communicated clearly, especially to junior cadets, they may not understand that they can wear a service dress uniform at a Wing Conference banquet or other formal event. These junior cadets normally don't spend too much time reading regulations (if the read them at all). Many new and junior cadets may simply understand this as 'cadets can't wear service dress uniforms unless they're officers' and think this is across the board. So it's important that these and any other policies are communicated and explained clearly.

Exactly,  I ran into this here at my current unit.  Basics were told that they could not wear blues until they achieve their Curry.  Both the command and I nipped this in the rear quickly.  This is a example of a policy that has far more potential for harm than good and really if cadets do not know who their cadet staff is there is something wrong.  There are already perks for being a cadet officer there shouldn't be any reason to add an elitist policy as well.

[Storm Chaser]

Exactly,  I ran into this here at my current unit.  Basics were told that they could not wear blues until they achieve their Curry.  Both the command and I nipped this in the rear quickly.  This is a example of a policy that has far more potential for harm than good and really if cadets do not know who their cadet staff is there is something wrong.  There are already perks for being a cadet officer there shouldn't be any reason to add an elitist policy as well. [ emphasis mine]

I question not only the value, but legality validity [added] of this policy. CAPR 52-16 states that in order for a cadet to be eligible for promotion, the cadet must "[p]ossess a CAP uniform and wear it properly." It also states that "[e]very activity should allow cadets to wear their uniform..." CAPM 39-1 describes the service uniform as "[t]he AF-style blue uniforms worn for normal duty" and as the "Minimum Basic Service Uniform." CAPM 39-1 says that "[c]adets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet." It also states that the BDU "is worn when it is impractical or inappropriate to wear the service uniforms." [emphasis mine]

The only uniform that, at least until recently, CAP issues to cadets is the service uniform (Blues). Units may issue BDUs if supplies are available, but there's no guarantee. Blues are a valid basic uniform that every cadet should have and be allowed to wear. Even if this policy was permissible under current regulations, I don't think it serves a purpose. Wearing the CAP basic uniform is an integral part of the Cadet Programs and should not be prohibited or restricted because of rank.

EDIT: Corrected regulation number for CAPR 52-16. Replaced the word "legality" with "validity".

[lordmonar]

Legally?  As in allowed by regulations.

If the squadron issues BDU's then yes it is legal.
Value?  Well....that is up to the local commander and his chain of command to determine.

We at my squadron require our C/AB's to wear an "alternate" uniform until they get their full service uniform.  We also issue BDU's to about 90% of our cadets as we have a pretty good supply of them (although it is getting thinner).

We have a policy at my squadron......Staff (Flt Sgt's and up) wear ties.  Our officers wear service coats and service caps where appropriate.

We watch for the dangers of elitism and make sure that our perks are not being misused.


What others do at their squadron is their business. 

[abdsp51]

We watch for the dangers of elitism and make sure that our perks are not being misused.


What others do at their squadron is their business.

Sir,

Here is the key thing, you are watching for elitism and are not encouraging it in any aspect.  Here the goal since I have been here has been to make sure everyone is as uniform as possible.  And while what other squadrons may do is their business but how many times has this topic come up?  There are things that can be done to identify staff but going to the extreme such as restricting a uniform item a cadet may need for a function is counter productive.

[Storm Chaser]

Legally?  As in allowed by regulations.

I replaced "legality" with "validity", as it's a more appropriate word in the context of my post.

If the squadron issues BDU's then yes it is legal.

The regulation says a commander may require such uniform if issued, but it doesn't really say anything about restricting or prohibiting Blues. Either way, I didn't say that it wasn't "legal" or "valid", but that I "question" it.

Value?  Well....that is up to the local commander and his chain of command to determine.

That is precisely one of the things that I'm questioning. I don't believe commanders are always equipped to make these kinds of decisions, and frankly, I don't think they should have to.

What others do at their squadron is their business.

I know you truly believe that, as you have said so multiple times in different posts. Frankly, it surprises me a bit since that's not how the Air Force operates; at least not anymore. Besides, that's not entirely true. Squadrons are responsible to their groups and/or wings; they can't just do whatever they want.

EDIT: Made minor correction for spelling.

[Eclipse]

Crazy thought...

What if, and follow me here if you can...

We all just wore the same "uniform" in a "uniform" manner, without any special rules?

[Storm Chaser]

That IS crazy, but I like the way you think.

It's so crazy that it may even work. 

[lordmonar]

We watch for the dangers of elitism and make sure that our perks are not being misused.


What others do at their squadron is their business.

Sir,

Here is the key thing, you are watching for elitism and are not encouraging it in any aspect.  Here the goal since I have been here has been to make sure everyone is as uniform as possible.  And while what other squadrons may do is their business but how many times has this topic come up?  There are things that can be done to identify staff but going to the extreme such as restricting a uniform item a cadet may need for a function is counter productive.

Well.....a.  CADETS will never NEED service coats for a function......unless they are issued by CAP.  To be within CAP 39-1.
b.  If/when a cadet needs the uniform items we help them get them.
c.  How many times does this come up?   In the case of the OP....he wanted to be cool and wear his service coat......and was told he could not....and so he complained here......where he was told to suck it up.   90% of the time it has come up is when someone wants to do something when he wants to....when he has been told he can't.

[lordmonar]

Crazy thought...

What if, and follow me here if you can...

We all just wore the same "uniform" in a "uniform" manner, without any special rules?

We are.....unless you are talking about taking off all your rank, ribbons, and badges.

We have built in elitism.......this is just another way to use the elitism tool to our advantage....and that is all.   If it does not work for you then don't use it.

[lordmonar]

The regulation says a commander may require such uniform if issued, but it doesn't really say anything about restricting or prohibiting Blues. Either way, I didn't say that it wasn't "legal" or "valid", but that I "question" it.

If the commander says "UOD for C/AB is BDU's, C/Amn-C/CMSgt is Short Sleeve Blues, for C/2d Lt-C/Col Service dress"  He is not "restricting or prohibiting" he is simply setting the UOD.

Value?  Well....that is up to the local commander and his chain of command to determine.

That is precisely one of the things that I'm questioning. I don't believe commanders are always equipped to make these kinds of decisions, and frankly, I don't think they should have to.

Then we are really screwed......you question if they are equipped to make these kinds of decisions.....these are the same guys launching ES sorties and making money decisions....not to mention promotion decisions.  Your argument breaks down.

What others do at their squadron is their business.

I know you truly believe that, as you have said so multiple times in different posts. Frankly, it surprises me a bit since that's not how the Air Force operates; at least not anymore. Besides, that's not entirely true. Squadrons are responsible to their groups and/or wings; they can't just do whatever they want.]/quote]
Bull.
Each squadron commander and down to the shop chief can make these sort of decisions.  A wing commander getting involved in what the Comm Squadron Commander is doing about UNIFORM OF THE DAY is just asinine. 

The real USAF usually just ignores it......for the most part.

[Storm Chaser]

We are.....unless you are talking about taking off all your rank, ribbons, and badges.

We have built in elitism.......this is just another way to use the elitism tool to our advantage....and that is all.   If it does not work for you then don't use it.

The officer rank insignia already set these cadets apart; why do we need another uniform item to differentiate them.

[Eclipse]

Then we are really screwed......you question if they are equipped to make these kinds of decisions.....these are the same guys launching ES sorties and making money decisions....not to mention promotion decisions.  Your argument breaks down.

No, it is based on the reality of CAP as it exists outside the pamphlets, where many commanders are poorly trained (if at all), chosen like the Hunger Games, and only actually read the regs as a matter of last resort.