Multiple awards for the same action prohibited by 39-3

[Eclipse]

We did this dance in another thread.

Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".  It blurs the line between the organizations to the value of neither.

[lordmonar]

We did this dance in another thread.

Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".  It blurs the line between the organizations to the value of neither.

And that's a 2b offense?

[starshippe]

   seems as though it would be possible to get a find, a save, and a sortie towards an air sar ribbon, all in one sortie.

bill

[johnnyb47]

Just a non-authoritative blurb of info as it's only in KB, but I found it interesting that KB actually suggests members become instructors to save units money on first aid training:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/90/kw/first%20aid%20training/related/1

I found that a while back when I was researching first aid training options.

[Eclipse]

We did this dance in another thread.

Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".  It blurs the line between the organizations to the value of neither.

And that's a 2b offense?

Is there really any point in pursuing this part of the conversation? 

The above is not.  The situation you indicated the first time certainly would be.  It's one thing to ride the line and provide
instruction to fellow members and make sure they understand that your capacity id for the AHA (or whatever) and not CAP,
but not to the general public.

I would absolutely discipline anyone under my command for providing direct FA instruction to the general public in a CAP uniform.

[Eclipse]

Just a non-authoritative blurb of info as it's only in KB, but I found it interesting that KB actually suggests members become instructors to save units money on first aid training:
http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/90/kw/first%20aid%20training/related/1

I found that a while back when I was researching first aid training options.

That's what we did.  In fact in two cases we actually paid the training costs for two people to get certified.
One left for another wing 6 months later, which was awesome.

[Ned]

Why don't we hear from Ned on this issue?

Flyer

Luis,

Mostly because I don't have anything helpful or definative to add.

My reading of the reg indicates that under some circumstances CAP members may provide FA, CPR, etc instruction to members and others.  Indeed, I think that is the way the great majority of my FA and CPR training has been done -- by "dual-hatted" members who taught in their ARC/AHA/Fire Dept capacities while saving me money. 

But I also agree that our doctrine prefers outside providers give the training where reasonably possible.

And I also agree that the regs and Knowledgebase are fuzzy and less than definative.  Somebody probably needs to form a committee and harmonize everything.

Please, Lord, let that be a dynamic and interesting committee of dedicated and knowledgeable members.

That does not include me.

As always, thank you for your service, sir.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ned-

Thank you for posting your views on this issue.

Flyer

[Mustang]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

Bob, your ability to misread regs is unequaled.  The first half of your sentence is simply untrue. Para. 1-24f says we cannot provide medical *services* on missions or training events. It says NOTHING about proving medical TRAINING.  Providing CPR/AED *training* is not the same as providing medical *services*.

Your original post is also wrong. As someone pointed out, unit honors and individual decorations are not the same thing. Earlier this month, my wing was awarded a National Commander's Unit Citation for its support of a project I managed--for which I received a DSA. I am authorized both.

[Eclipse]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

Bob, your ability to misread regs is unequaled.  The first half of your sentence is simply untrue. Para. 1-24f says we cannot provide medical *services* on missions or training events. It says NOTHING about proving medical TRAINING.  Providing CPR/AED *training* is not the same as providing medical *services*.

You're really going to try and make the argument that while we can't train our members in FA, we can train the general public?

[lordmonar]

60-3 makes it very clear that CAP members are not authorized to provide medical care or training either internally or externally, and goes so far as to require that the First Aid training mandated by a couple of the ES quals be provided and tracked by an outside agency. 

Bob, your ability to misread regs is unequaled.  The first half of your sentence is simply untrue. Para. 1-24f says we cannot provide medical *services* on missions or training events. It says NOTHING about proving medical TRAINING.  Providing CPR/AED *training* is not the same as providing medical *services*.

You're really going to try and make the argument that while we can't train our members in FA, we can train the general public?

Who says we can't train our members in First Aid?

[Eclipse]

Who says we can't train our members in First Aid?

60-3, NHQ, the JA's, and the Ops Directorate.  All of which are clear that this training must be provided by, certified, and tracked by a card-issuing agency (as well as regularly renewed). 

No, medical professionals who are members are >not< allowed to do First Aid training for members, nor is the local fire department, or "my mom who is a nurse".
Nor are instructors from certifying agencies allowed to provide the instruction outside those other programs rules (i.e. for free), as this violates the instructor agreements
of those programs.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Not true.

Not for free but for a reduced fee.

The only thing my instructor agreement requires is a card and book per trainee. That comes to between $25 and $30. The other cost is for materials - gauze, bandages, and Epi trainer in case of First Aid, and maniquin and AED rental in the case of CPR.

That cost versus the cost of a third-party external provider agency who has to now pay an instructor hours.

Do you want me to scan this instructor agreement? The way you post this, iot seems to me you have never seen an AHA instructor agreement.

AHA does the same thing with nurses and physicians who provide this training in their home institution. For instance, Hospital X sends her lead instructor to be certified as an AHA instructor. She becomes instructor, teaches CPR according to AHA rules. Again paying only for the card and the book. If they have maniquins they use their own. This is not different than what we are discussing here. In the case of a hospital, AHA makes another concession. In some cases a hospital may make an AHA training library.

When I was teaching under Red Cross rules there was a similar agreement.

Flyer

[Devil Doc]

I teach Cadets and Adults FA all the time. Am I certified? I stayed at a Holiday Inn Once, I do have UnParralleled Experience. Just becaus ei Teach FA does not mean they are Certified in FA

[Eclipse]

I teach Cadets and Adults FA all the time. Am I certified? I stayed at a Holiday Inn Once, I do have UnParralleled Experience. Just becaus ei Teach FA does not mean they are Certified in FA

Not really what we are discussing, but muddies the conversation nicely.

[Eclipse]

Not true.

Not for free but for a reduced fee.

The only thing my instructor agreement requires is a card and book per trainee. That comes to between $25 and $30. The other cost is for materials - gauze, bandages, and Epi trainer in case of First Aid, and maniquin and AED rental in the case of CPR.

That cost versus the cost of a third-party external provider agency who has to now pay an instructor hours.

Do you want me to scan this instructor agreement? The way you post this, iot seems to me you have never seen an AHA instructor agreement.

AHA does the same thing with nurses and physicians who provide this training in their home institution. For instance, Hospital X sends her lead instructor to be certified as an AHA instructor. She becomes instructor, teaches CPR according to AHA rules. Again paying only for the card and the book. If they have maniquins they use their own. This is not different than what we are discussing here. In the case of a hospital, AHA makes another concession. In some cases a hospital may make an AHA training library.

When I was teaching under Red Cross rules there was a similar agreement.

Flyer

Again, tangential to the point, making the conversation less clear.

Not only have I read the agreements, I have have had discussions with these agencies, NHQ, various instructors, and other involved in attempts to find the most direct, least expensive route
to this training for my members, while still meeting the letter and spirit of the regs,  including paying to have instructors certified.  We have several in my wing who are able to provide
First Aid for about $10-15 per student depending on the certifying agency. 

The point I was trying to make has nothing to do with the dollar cost and everything to do with the state of the regulations.

And for the record, I find it completely ridiculous, couterproductive, but not at all surprising, that national solicits medical professionals as "valued members" and then prohibits them
from using the very skills that make them valuable.  Considering the stance that we are not a medical provider, 911 is supposed to be the >first< thing we do in a medical emergency,
and the majority of care is self and buddy care, there's no reason at all why we could not do internal basic first aid training for our members, just as the BSA and similar organizations
do today.  But until something changes, that's the state of the regs.

[Devil Doc]

And for the record, I find it completely ridiculous, couterproductive, but not at all surprising, that national solicits medical professionals as "valued members" and then prohibits them
from using the very skills that make them valuable.  Considering the stance that we are not a medical provider, 911 is supposed to be the >first< thing we do in a medical emergency,
and the majority of care is self and buddy care, there's no reason at all why we could not do internal basic first aid training for our members, just as the BSA and similar organizations
do today.  But until something changes, that's the state of the regs.

Makes since to me, Why is National So Afraid of us Using First aid or Learning First Aid. I mean jeez, you would think they would love to have a nurse, provider, emt on there team,  but yet barres them from using there skill.

[Eclipse]

Makes since to me, Why is National So Afraid of us Using First aid or Learning First Aid. I mean jeez, you would think they would love to have a nurse, provider, emt on there team,  but yet barres them from using there skill.

Well-intentioned lawyers + member bad behavior = "where we are today".

It's hard to make the case for relaxing or changing things when we have members in high-visibility situations who can't even follow basic, simple rules.
If I were a CAP lawyer, the first time I saw a cadet with a stethoscope at an encampment or similar activity, where we aren't even supposed to be
involved in medical care at all, would be the last time I was interested in that conversation for a long time.

[jimmydeanno]

All of which are clear that this training must be provided by, certified, and tracked by a card-issuing agency (as well as regularly renewed).

I'm not arguing for or against this, but you keep using the word "clear" but I have yet to see a citation or written statement put up that -clearly- states what you are arguing.  Only you saying that they say it clearly.  Nobody else seems to be able to find these clear citations or regulatory statements that you are referencing.

[JayT]

And for the record, I find it completely ridiculous, couterproductive, but not at all surprising, that national solicits medical professionals as "valued members" and then prohibits them
from using the very skills that make them valuable.  Considering the stance that we are not a medical provider, 911 is supposed to be the >first< thing we do in a medical emergency,
and the majority of care is self and buddy care, there's no reason at all why we could not do internal basic first aid training for our members, just as the BSA and similar organizations
do today.  But until something changes, that's the state of the regs.

Makes since to me, Why is National So Afraid of us Using First aid or Learning First Aid. I mean jeez, you would think they would love to have a nurse, provider, emt on there team,  but yet barres them from using there skill.

Because as a civilian EMS paramedic, I operate under a very specific set of rules and regulations that change even from agency to agency (depending on who's uniform I'm in, I can be standing in the same spot and operate under two very different sets of protocols between my full time job and my part time job.) Those regulations do not make me a independent provider. A nurse is not an independent provider. A PA is not an independent provider. For a civilian EMT or Paramedic to operate in CAP, CAP would have to have an extensive system of medical direction an oversight that, frankly, is not needed. CAP just isn't the agency that's swooping in to 'save' an injured pilot crawling out of his wrecked Cessna. That's a fantasy.

I don't believe the regulations state 'Let your buddy bleed to death' in the one in a million chance that's the case, but if you decide to be a hero and drop a line and do elective bilateral needle thoracostomies and a cric, that's all on you. And have fun explaining to a judge and a jury of your peers why you practiced medicine without proper oversight or an independent license.