How distinctive is "distinctive" to the Air Force?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

it is not the Air Force's responsibility at any level to educate Airmen about us.

Why?  Airmen are educated about the Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve.  It would take not one whit away from yet another half-hour session of folding underwear and socks for an MTI to cover it in an evening dayroom briefing, if they still do those.

And I can tell there are far more Airmen down in the trenches that know about us by word of mouth than by any class that can be taught.

That is the problem.  Sometimes that "in the trench" knowledge only extends to exaggerated rumours about CAP; i.e., "those fat guys who'll try to make you salute them."  It is inexcusable that an MTI would tell his/her charges "if you encounter a CAP person, ignore them."  I read that in the AFT; once I find a link I will provide it.

Considering I highly doubt you've been to BMT in the last decade, at least, I'd LOVE to know just when you expect brand new trainees to learn about CAP?

No, it has been much longer than that, you are correct.

As I said above, it could be covered in an end-of-day briefing by the MTI.  It would have been far more useful than my MTI regaling us with his stories of how he was the Joe Friday, Dirty Harry and (more likely) Frank Drebin combined of AF Security Police.

How would you relate it to key skills that every enlisted Airman needs to know?  Sorry, but knowledge about CAP isn't critical to my success as an Airman.

Indeed.  How is knowledge of any of the Air Force's history detrimental to any Airman's foundational knowledge?

As for learning about us at our first duty station, that would be better.  Though most of what is said in FTAC goes in one ear and out the other, and if there are handouts, they (at best) get filed away somewhere in the back closet of your dorm, at worst they hit the dumpster on the way out for the day.  I'd rather see a briefing about CAP happen during my commanders call, or an enlisted/airmen all call.  At least at that point I'm generally more receptive to information because it's from people in my actual chain of command, and I know they are generally looking out for me and my EPR.

No problem at all with that.

Yes they are busy....I know I sure was.......but it would be nice to have a half page in the BMTS study guide and maybe a whole page in the Professional Development Guide....maybe rate a question on WAPS testing.

No one is saying that BMTS/OCS/AFA/ROTC trainees need to be able to pass level one......but they should be told that we exist.

:clap: :clap: Bottom line. :clap: :clap:

I agree with you here.....in fact I think that If I Were God For A Day (IIWGFAD) there would be a CAP unit on each and every USAF installation.  That CAP's existance would be breifed at new commers breifings, FTAC and commander's call.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I think that CAP's uniform regulation should just be a chapter in AFI 36-2903 so everyone knows that we are part of the Air Force.

And it would eliminate a LOT of the confusion that currently happens, which has not been beneficial to either us or the AF.

[abdsp51]

They are taught about the Reserve and the ANG because those two components make up the "Total Force Concept".  And I would like for you to cite a valid source of just what the Airmen in the trenches know about CAP outside of a Times article which is not nor ever will be an official source for the AF. 

At the end of the day it is not the AF's responsibility to brief or teach the AD, Reserve, or ANG components about us.  If you think the AF should know more then you need to take a more active role in doing so within your area.  I am always telling people about us and what we do, both in my own section and out on base.  And if I had the opportunity to say something at CC Call I would.  And again it would surprise you just how much someone in the trenches knows. 

[lordmonar]

They are taught about the Reserve and the ANG because those two components make up the "Total Force Concept".  And I would like for you to cite a valid source of just what the Airmen in the trenches know about CAP outside of a Times article which is not nor ever will be an official source for the AF. 

At the end of the day it is not the AF's responsibility to brief or teach the AD, Reserve, or ANG components about us.  If you think the AF should know more then you need to take a more active role in doing so within your area.  I am always telling people about us and what we do, both in my own section and out on base.  And if I had the opportunity to say something at CC Call I would.  And again it would surprise you just how much someone in the trenches knows.

Yes....the "Total Force"  AD/Reserves/ANG/AUX.........see simple....when they teach the RES/ANG part they add one more paragraph for the USAF AUX.

I was in the trenches for 22 years.....never once.....not ever.....heard anything about CAP...heard about MARS, the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, the Aero Club, the Computer Club, the Rod and Gun Club, lots of things I heard about..........not once about CAP.

It is part of the "red headed step child" syndrom.  Not that the USAF is against us.....like I said.....most of them don't know we exists.  It is not a conspiricy or anything.....it is simple ignorance.   So CAP-USAF has to push it to get it included at least a blerb in the BMTS and PD guides.

Me going to all the commander's calls I can will not help educate the airman at some base that does not have a squadron.   Now some of this is CAP''s fault.....yes we need to do a much better job of expanding the number of squadrons and keeping those squadrons afloat....this means more work at the wing and group levels.   Just like I said that every USAF installation should have CAP squadron....that means each wing commander with a vacant base should be at the base commander's officer starting the ball rolling to get one there.

There are lots of little steps we all need to make this happen........but that does not releive the USAF of their responsiblity to at least acknowledge us officall in USAF basic training and PD guides.

[ZigZag911]

At the end of the day it is not the AF's responsibility to brief or teach the AD, Reserve, or ANG components about us. 

In other words we are the orphan children of Ma Blue?

Either we're part of them or we're not...is knowledge of CAP critical to the AF mission? Of course not.

Then again, is knowledge about AF history really critical???

I would argue that it is, and that somehow, somewhere, between the history of the USAF and the total force concept, we fit in, and need to be mentioned...not in great detail, but the recruits and officer candidates should learn something about us.

[SarDragon]

They are taught about the Reserve and the ANG because those two components make up the "Total Force Concept".  And I would like for you to cite a valid source of just what the Airmen in the trenches know about CAP outside of a Times article which is not nor ever will be an official source for the AF. 

At the end of the day it is not the AF's responsibility to brief or teach the AD, Reserve, or ANG components about us.  If you think the AF should know more then you need to take a more active role in doing so within your area.  I am always telling people about us and what we do, both in my own section and out on base.  And if I had the opportunity to say something at CC Call I would.  And again it would surprise you just how much someone in the trenches knows.

Yes....the "Total Force"  AD/Reserves/ANG/AUX.........see simple....when they teach the RES/ANG part they add one more paragraph for the USAF AUX.

I was in the trenches for 22 years.....never once.....not ever.....heard anything about CAP...heard about MARS, the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, the Aero Club, the Computer Club, the Rod and Gun Club, lots of things I heard about..........not once about CAP.

It is part of the "red headed step child" syndrom.  Not that the USAF is against us.....like I said.....most of them don't know we exists.  It is not a conspiricy or anything.....it is simple ignorance.   So CAP-USAF has to push it to get it included at least a blerb in the BMTS and PD guides.

Me going to all the commander's calls I can will not help educate the airman at some base that does not have a squadron.   Now some of this is CAP''s fault.....yes we need to do a much better job of expanding the number of squadrons and keeping those squadrons afloat....this means more work at the wing and group levels.   Just like I said that every USAF installation should have CAP squadron....that means each wing commander with a vacant base should be at the base commander's officer starting the ball rolling to get one there.

There are lots of little steps we all need to make this happen........but that does not releive the USAF of their responsiblity to at least acknowledge us officall in USAF basic training and PD guides.

I gotta say, though, that I got back into CAP after seeing an ad on the base TV broadcast in Misawa, Japan, mentioning when and where the meetings were.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

They are taught about the Reserve and the ANG because those two components make up the "Total Force Concept".

I was in the ANG.  It could be argued that we are more directly tied to the AF than the ANG because the ANG answers to their State unless placed under Federal control.

And I would like for you to cite a valid source of just what the Airmen in the trenches know about CAP outside of a Times article which is not nor ever will be an official source for the AF. 

That is a self-contradictory statement.  If it were from "official" sources, it would not be "knowledge in the trenches."  I can tell you that I have personally heard/witnessed barely (and sometimes not-so-barely) concealed remarks about CAP from Air Force personnel (mostly having to do with being "wannabes" and/or "poseurs"), mostly from young junior Airmen.  Most of the "warm fuzzies" I have personally experienced tend to come from officers and senior NCO's.  I'm just talking about the occasional "thanks for what you do," which gives me a buzz more than an actual salute does.

My point is: Very little is actually known about what we are officially, and our relationship to the Air Force.

At the end of the day it is not the AF's responsibility to brief or teach the AD, Reserve, or ANG components about us.

You still haven't said why.  As long as we have a connection to the Air Force, and wear their uniform, it is beneficial to all concerned for them to have at least a basic knowledge of us.

If you think the AF should know more then you need to take a more active role in doing so within your area.

Gee, that would be real cool...if there were any active bases in my area.  The closest one, according to MapQuest, would be about six hours' driving time away, in another state, and that's gas money I don't have.  I also think it's a violation of regs to directly contact the military without going through the LO/State Director staff.

This is a quick-and-dirty cut and paste from AFI 10-2701, the Air Force instruction about us.

GENERAL OVERVIEW AND RESPONSIBILITIES

The Civil Air Patrol (CAP) is a Federally chartered non-profit corporation that may be utilized as a civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force. The Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) can employ the services of CAP in lieu of or to supplement Air Force resources to fulfill the non-combat programs and missions of the Air Force. Such services may include Air Force-assigned missions (AFAMs) in support of homeland security operations, consequence management, support to civilian law enforcement, and other civil support. Certain CAP cadet and aerospace educational programs may also be approved and assigned as Air Force non-combat missions. When performing Air Force-assigned programs and missions, CAP
assets function as an auxiliary of the Air Force.

CAP Status as an Auxiliary of the Air Force.
Title 10, USC § 9442 identifies CAP as an auxiliary of the Air Force when carrying out a mission assigned by the SECAF to provide services to any department or agency in any branch of the Federal government, including the Air Force. CAP is deemed to be an instrumentality of the United States while carrying out missions assigned by the Secretary.

Status of CAP Personnel.
CAP is not a military service and its members are not subject to the UCMJ. CAP members voluntarily perform Air Force-assigned missions. CAP membership does not confer upon an individual any of the rights, privileges, prerogatives or benefits of military personnel, active, reserve, or retired. While CAP is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members may wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized. Air Force protocol requirements do not apply to CAP members.

CAP Grade.
CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or
noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces. CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure.

Actions on Military Installations.
When on military Installations or other government facilities, CAP personnel will adhere to the regulations and policies of the Installation or facility. Installation or facility commanders may remove or bar entry of individual CAP members in accordance with established procedures.

Air Education and Training Command (AETC).
AETC will have the principal MAJCOM-level responsibility for policy, resource advocacy, and oversight of Air Force support to CAP.

AIR FORCE USE OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL
The Air Force may utilize CAP units and personnel in fulfilling selected non-combat programs and missions of the Air Force. Missions assigned by the Secretary of the Air Force, or the designee, to the CAP must be identified and referred to as AFAMs in advance of mission execution. AFAMs may supportnon-combat programs and organizational functions.

Use of CAP by Air Force Commanders.
CAP is a cost effective force multiplier. Air Force commanders are encouraged to request that CAP conduct missions that are within CAP's capability to perform. Commanders must ensure funds are available to reimburse CAP for requested services before the mission is approved.

Installation Support.
To carry out AFAMs, it is important that CAP personnel have access to adequate facilities and services. At their discretion and expense, Air Force Installation commanders may per-
mit CAP to use Installation services and facilities. Long-term support may include designated CAP use of facilities and services. Short-term support may include temporary billeting, messing, and ground transportation for CAP activities.

Use of Army and Air Force Exchange Service (AAFES) Facilities.
In accordance with AFJI34-210 (AR 60-20) Army and Air Force Exchange Service Operating Policies, Chapter 2-9, Paragraph(c)(4), CAP personnel, while participating in an AFAM, or official function on a military Installation and occupying government quarters, are entitled to the use of AAFES facilities and services if approved by the installation commander.

Grade Structure.
CAP uses a military style grade structure for both its Senior Members and Cadet Members. CAP grades for both their cadet and senior members have no military standing, carry no authority over members of the Armed Forces, nor warrant the customs and courtesies afforded military members. Appointment and promotion follows guidelines contained within CAP regulations.

That is directly from an AFI.  How hard would it be to cobble together a short handout/page in training manual/lecture about us based solely on this?

[lordmonar]

They are taught about the Reserve and the ANG because those two components make up the "Total Force Concept".  And I would like for you to cite a valid source of just what the Airmen in the trenches know about CAP outside of a Times article which is not nor ever will be an official source for the AF. 

At the end of the day it is not the AF's responsibility to brief or teach the AD, Reserve, or ANG components about us.  If you think the AF should know more then you need to take a more active role in doing so within your area.  I am always telling people about us and what we do, both in my own section and out on base.  And if I had the opportunity to say something at CC Call I would.  And again it would surprise you just how much someone in the trenches knows.

Yes....the "Total Force"  AD/Reserves/ANG/AUX.........see simple....when they teach the RES/ANG part they add one more paragraph for the USAF AUX.

I was in the trenches for 22 years.....never once.....not ever.....heard anything about CAP...heard about MARS, the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, the Aero Club, the Computer Club, the Rod and Gun Club, lots of things I heard about..........not once about CAP.

It is part of the "red headed step child" syndrom.  Not that the USAF is against us.....like I said.....most of them don't know we exists.  It is not a conspiricy or anything.....it is simple ignorance.   So CAP-USAF has to push it to get it included at least a blerb in the BMTS and PD guides.

Me going to all the commander's calls I can will not help educate the airman at some base that does not have a squadron.   Now some of this is CAP''s fault.....yes we need to do a much better job of expanding the number of squadrons and keeping those squadrons afloat....this means more work at the wing and group levels.   Just like I said that every USAF installation should have CAP squadron....that means each wing commander with a vacant base should be at the base commander's officer starting the ball rolling to get one there.

There are lots of little steps we all need to make this happen........but that does not releive the USAF of their responsiblity to at least acknowledge us officall in USAF basic training and PD guides.

I gotta say, though, that I got back into CAP after seeing an ad on the base TV broadcast in Misawa, Japan, mentioning when and where the meetings were.

Yeah....I started those up when I was CC there too.....but people still had to be educated about who we were everytime I asked for base support for something.

[JoeTomasone]

The base near me, theoretically, knows CAP well.   There is a Squadron on base, we support their large airshow every year (and are involved in the planning meetings), and we have Wing Staff meetings there periodically.   In all, there's an excellent working relationship.

However, I'd say that 20% of the time I go on base, the SF guard at the gate has no idea what CAP is, and has to call someone over to validate that the CAP ID card is valid for entry.   This despite an MOU signed by the Base Commander providing for just such access.   When we bring an oversized vehicle on to the base, we have to go through a separate gate.  I have yet to find ONE person there that hasn't had to make a phone call to verify the ID - because NO ONE at that gate ever seems to know about CAP.

Unless a massive -- and I mean MASSIVE -- educational effort is made, I don't see how we will rise from the shadows any time soon.  And quite frankly, I'm sure that no one in a position to make such an effort thinks that there's anything that needs fixing.  They have more important things to do, I'm sure.

[abdsp51]

Cyborg, please point out the benefit to implementing something that I guarantee you will be dumped.  We are the Aux yes and I will point out one thing in all of your AFI copy and paste Installation commander's discretion.  And trust me at Travis the relationship there was awesome, here at Tucson we are working at making it better. 

Most average 18-20 is not going to care about CAP unless they were in it before or are in it.  Your average new airman is looking at chasing one of three things and I will not mention those here. 

Again BMT and really neither PD is the place for it you want the word out CC calls and FTAC is going to be the best way to go and relying on the AF to provide anything is like waiting for the golden goose.

[Stonewall]

I have not followed this thread, but thought I'd add that I've pulled security details for this guy on more than one occasion. 

[Walkman]

I love being able to wear the AF-style uni's. I also don't mind being distinctive. I think the service dress looks pretty good with the gray epaulets. I wouldn't mind having hard rank on gray vs. the embroidered just because I've seen several epps start to fade and not look great. But other than that, I like how things look.

I'm also on board with feeling like those that can't wear AF style should have something better for full service dress. We had Wing Conference this weekend and there are a number of MIWG members that wore the blazer combo in the evening and I think they should have something with which they could display their awards and accomplishments in a more formal uniform the same way those that wear the Blues can.

Honestly, though, the only "distinctive" uniform I wish was less so, is the BDUs. I know I've heard all the grumbling from AD folks about the ABU and I'm not looking to open a new pointless debate on the subject, but I'd wear it in the heart beat. The other AF-style options allow for a closer visual association with our parent service while still showing some CAP-ness than the BDUs.

[Storm Chaser]

It is inexcusable that an MTI would tell his/her charges "if you encounter a CAP person, ignore them."

Why? CAP is not part of the Armed Forces or even one of the Uniformed Services. CAP officers are not commissioned either. We are a civilian organization that happens to wear military-style uniforms and military-style ranks.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is inexcusable that an MTI would tell his/her charges "if you encounter a CAP person, ignore them."

Why? CAP is not part of the Armed Forces or even one of the Uniformed Services. CAP officers are not commissioned either. We are a civilian organization that happens to wear military-style uniforms and military-style ranks.

For one thing, it's bloody rude and unprofessional.

[NCRblues]

In the current climate of AF BMT, I doubt a mention of CAP is even near anyone's radar in the training group. With the ongoing sex scandal centered around my BMTS 331st wolf pack, and the budget crunch, plus a redue of how BMT is run and overseen i really doubt anyone is going to listen to us complain that airman have no clue who we are.

As long as base commanders know, and as long as AF units at Wing level and above know, who cares what the A1C on the gate thinks.

[Storm Chaser]

It is inexcusable that an MTI would tell his/her charges "if you encounter a CAP person, ignore them."

Why? CAP is not part of the Armed Forces or even one of the Uniformed Services. CAP officers are not commissioned either. We are a civilian organization that happens to wear military-style uniforms and military-style ranks.

For one thing, it's bloody rude and unprofessional.

Really? I beg to differ. The requirements to become a commissioned officer and a CAP officer are not even close. And as I said before, CAP officers are NOT commissioned. Should military members salute non-commissioned officers? At least they have actual UCMJ authority.

Members of the military are also not required to salute officers (lieutenants and above) of the Police Department, Fire Department and other similar agencies. Why would it be considered "rude" not to salute CAP officers, who are, regardless of CAP rank, civilians?

[Garibaldi]

It is inexcusable that an MTI would tell his/her charges "if you encounter a CAP person, ignore them."

Why? CAP is not part of the Armed Forces or even one of the Uniformed Services. CAP officers are not commissioned either. We are a civilian organization that happens to wear military-style uniforms and military-style ranks.

For one thing, it's bloody rude and unprofessional.

Really? I beg to differ. The requirements to become a commissioned officer and a CAP officer are not even close. And as I said before, CAP officers are NOT commissioned. Should military members salute non-commissioned officers? At least they have actual UCMJ authority.

Members of the military are also not required to salute officers (lieutenants and above) of the Police Department, Fire Department and other similar agencies. Why would it be considered "rude" not to salute CAP officers, who are, regardless of CAP rank, civilians?

Military members saluting CAP officers is a COURTESY. We are civilians and as such, military NCOs and junior grade officers are not REQUIRED to salute CAP officers. Most of the military men and women I've encountered have saluted me because they recognize the grade insignia and may or may not "know" we aren't real military. Last encampment, a group of Marine privates and lance corporals walked right past me and didn't even acknowledge me, although I did say "Good morning, Marines" as they passed by. Other NCOs notice the difference in uniform and either ignore us or acknowledge (at least me) with a not and a good morning/afternoon.

We are required to salute all officers of superior grade, regardless of service branch. We are not required to salute officers of fire or police departments. Funny that I was just thinking that while watching an episode of Adam-12 not 15 minutes ago.

As far as it's being rude and unprofessional, that's an opinion.

[Storm Chaser]

@Garibaldi:

Exactly my point. Well said.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Great Bog in Devon...

You ASSUMED I meant SALUTING by "not ignoring."  I DID NOT!

ALL I meant was maybe something like a simple GREETING, i.e., "good afternoon," "good morning," etc.

I did NOT mean said Airman had to snap a salute!  I know that is not required, though it is required that we salute them.

Think a little broader for crying out loud.

And, yes, I think to not do so is rude, just on the grounds of interpersonal communication.  It's nothing to do with rank/grade, perceived, actual or otherwise.

[Storm Chaser]

Everyone, regardless of rank, service or status deserves a greeting. I greet Airmen and NCOs while in my CAP uniform all the time and usually get a greeting back. I also greet civilians as I walk by. We're not in disagreement on that. We all deserve the courtesy of a verbal greeting or nod. What we were saying, and I think you also acknowledged, is that any courtesy and respect we receive does not derive from our CAP status. The Air Force recognizes our great contributions by supporting us, funding some of our missions and allowing us to wear their uniform, albeit with distinctive insignias. I think thanks plenty. Cheers!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

THANK YOU.

That is exactly what I was trying to get across.