Community service ribbon: ACTUAL qualifications and proof?

[jimmydeanno]

Well, I mean with the sequestration happening and all, we can't just be promoting a bunch of people to O-4, that'll chew up our budget in no time!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

For the Promotion to Major...the Approving authority is the Wing Commander.  In the RealMilitary awards/promotions/requests always get reviewed by the approving authority.  It's the responsibility of the CoC to Forward....each link in the chain can forward either endorsing the request or provide the approving authority a reason to not approve.  Either way for the Group Commander to withhold I think is a gross misuse of authority.  I understand that this is the Common way CAP does business, but that doesn't make it right.  If disapproving the request it at a minimum should be done in writing.  Even if it's an email for documentation purposes.

If the Group Commander doesn't respond to your inquiry, it's completely appropriate to go to the Wing Commander because it's the ultimate responsibility of the Wing Commander if the group commander isn't doing his job.

As I understand it, my paperwork dead-ended at the Squadron promotion board and Group was only involved in verbal conversation with Squadron CC.

[lordmonar]

For the Promotion to Major...the Approving authority is the Wing Commander.  In the RealMilitary awards/promotions/requests always get reviewed by the approving authority.  It's the responsibility of the CoC to Forward....each link in the chain can forward either endorsing the request or provide the approving authority a reason to not approve.  Either way for the Group Commander to withhold I think is a gross misuse of authority.  I understand that this is the Common way CAP does business, but that doesn't make it right.  If disapproving the request it at a minimum should be done in writing.  Even if it's an email for documentation purposes.

If the Group Commander doesn't respond to your inquiry, it's completely appropriate to go to the Wing Commander because it's the ultimate responsibility of the Wing Commander if the group commander isn't doing his job.

As I understand it, my paperwork dead-ended at the Squadron promotion board and Group was only involved in verbal conversation with Squadron CC.

So....it is your squadron commander who does not like you.  So the answer to your question should be comming from him...not group or wing.

And of course there is always the IG route.

[coloncapfl]

I got to make an opinion on all this reinstatement issue. First the reinstatement is not an obligation according to regs, and I even spoke to NHQ before I decided to re-join and they explain me that is up to the promoting commander to even take into consideration your previous time in grade before your break in service. For example if you were a Captain for 8 months before your membership expires and after your return the promoting authority could count those 8 months towards your next promotion after your reinstatement.  Having said that, What is the big fuzz about the reinstatement of the Grade? Isn't your duty assignment the important part of your tasks in CAP anyways? Is not like In the military that you see that the duty assignment is usually given to the Senior officer. Here in CAP your Grade doesn't necessary appoints you into a Duty assignment, but your Duty assignment can promote you. Therefore which one has more power or authority for operational purposes, your Grade, or Duty Assignment? I am a 1LT, and I am currently the CDC and our CDS is also a 1st LT and is doing an excellent job, 2 new Capt's  joined our Sq. They have higher grade but they are under the command of a 1LT. I don't see the big fuzz about reinstating them back to their old grade.
Now their break in service and current skills will come to play at the time of Duty assignment. That is my opinion on that.

[ColonelJack]

What is the big fuzz about the reinstatement of the Grade?

In my (never-to-be) humble opinion, the "big fuzz" is about one of the two ways people in CAP are "paid" for their service.

We get recognized for our work in CAP through either promotions or awards.  When I taught a Personnel course at CLC, I used the "promotion=payday" saying as my mantra.  Grade reinstatement is important, as is promotion, because it is a recognition of what has been accomplished.

In my own case, when I returned from a 12-year retirement, it was very important to me that my grade of lieutenant colonel be reinstated.  I had earned it - the hard way - and it kind of rankled me when the Wing CC went off-regulations to recommend I come back as a major and do TIG again. 

Your mileage may vary.  That's how I see it.

Jack

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So....it is your squadron commander who does not like you.  So the answer to your question should be comming from him...not group or wing.

Which I cannot get a straight answer from.  I cannot go into too much detail publicly, but it has to do with issues relating to discrimination.

And of course there is always the IG route.

BTDT on another issue in another wing...and almost got handed a 2B for my efforts.

However, thank you for your input, Master Sergeant...I mean it.

[Devil Doc]

When I first Joined CAP Last August, I was excited about rank, etc. Now it just seems to me like to much of an Hassle. Yes, being a Higher rank is awesome. I would hate to resew all of my ranks on my uniforms, jackets, flighsuits etc. It gets expensive. Alot of SM in my unit have been the same rank for 10 Plus years because they do not want to change there grade insignia over.

In CAP does "Rank" Really Matter? I mean yes someone higher ranking than you grants a salute and respect Etc. Im talking about the rank itself. You have a Lt. Col Pilot, and a Major SCC, then a 1st Lt DCC, Capt. ES Officer, Capt Safety Officer ,Major Chaplain, 2nd Lt PD Officer, etc. Who outranks Who? Yes they are Ranks, but does the Lt. Col Pilot outrank all of them? In Technicallity yes, but when it comes to Position in Leadership no. There is alot of people who are certain ranks filling in for not there Rank Position.

[Eclipse]

In CAP does "Rank" Really Matter? I mean yes someone higher ranking than you grants a salute and respect Etc. Im talking about the rank itself. You have a Lt. Col Pilot, and a Major SCC, then a 1st Lt DCC, Capt. ES Officer, Capt Safety Officer ,Major Chaplain, 2nd Lt PD Officer, etc. Who outranks Who? Yes they are Ranks, but does the Lt. Col Pilot outrank all of them? In Technicallity yes, but when it comes to Position in Leadership no. There is alot of people who are certain ranks filling in for not there Rank Position.

All authority in CAP is based on positional appointment, not grade, up to and including the National Commander.

[lordmonar]

Rank matters to the person.

We give of ourselves, our time, our money and our passion.

CAP has only so many ways to repay that.

So I get bent out of shape when I hear things like Cyborg is going through......It takes 5 whole minutes to tell someone why you are not going to promote him.  Just be a man and a leader and be honest.

And for the record.....while I do know that this sort of thing goes on.......I think it is the exception as opposed to the rule.

For Cyborg.........Push it.   If your promotion is being held up by the squadron commander......demand, politely, an explanation.  If you don't get one go around your commander up the chain.

If you did an IG complaint at wing.....and got threatened with a 2b....do one at region or national.

This is how we fix things......don't just complain.....fight!

[Eclipse]

^1.

[Devil Doc]

^1 Just Wrong, What makes me curious is why they wont give you an Explanation. Reminds me of the CSU Subject....

[Eclipse]

^1 Just Wrong, What makes me curious is why they wont give you an Explanation. Reminds me of the CSU Subject...

That's a big weakness in the promotion system - we discussed it at length, with suggestions, last year. 

Unlike on the cadet side, there's no expectation or requirement for action on a promotion request.  A request can sit indefinitely and not even
be acknowledged, and no specific timeline for processing exists, nor is there a requirement that the denial be explained.

At least in the case of a denial, there is the possibility for appeal or even a complaint (rarely successful), but unprocessed, that's not even an option.

Regardless of the result, our members deserve the basic common courtesy and respect of timely, unambiguous actions on all personnel actions.

I personally had several occasions where promotions or decorations were denied.  The conversations are not generally pleasant, and occasionally
result in hard feelings, but they are part of the duty and responsibility of being a Commander.

[coloncapfl]

Please don't get me wrong, when I posted the question of what is the big deal of the reinstatement, I didn't mean in regards to the member, but in regards to the Commanders who hold them up and make all this extra requirements and waiting extra time before approving it, etc. because is "their way". I had 3 seniors who were 1LT before their membership lapse and I made sure that they took their level 1, gave them a basic briefing of the changes in CAP and as soon as their Level 1 cleared NHQ, I requested my CC to submit their reinstatement. I am a firm believer that if you earned it you should get it. If they held a previous grade is because they spent time in CAP enough to earn the grade. And to clarify, is Grade, not Rank. Rank is how you determine who is senior among officers of the same Grade, or TIG. Like others said, is a personal achievement and it should be recognized.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So I get bent out of shape when I hear things like Cyborg is going through......It takes 5 whole minutes to tell someone why you are not going to promote him.  Just be a man and a leader and be honest.

Thank you for understanding.  I apologise for being truculent with you earlier.

For Cyborg.........Push it.   If your promotion is being held up by the squadron commander......demand, politely, an explanation.  If you don't get one go around your commander up the chain.

I've tried that via a letter to the Group Commander, which has gone unanswered.

If you did an IG complaint at wing.....and got threatened with a 2b....do one at region or national.

I should have clarified that was in another matter, in another wing, and in another life.  The effect was that I don't have a lot of trust in CAP IG...it's full of the GOBN.

This is how we fix things......don't just complain.....fight!

I see what you are getting at.  However, one potential consequence of that is that you can become persona non grata throughout your unit, Group and Wing.  Seen it.  Kind of like in the work world, where for whatever reason they can't/won't fire someone, but will ostracise them enough to get them to quit.

In this case it has to do with discrimination, and I don't use that term lightly in our over-litigious society.

However, I don't plan to let this rest...the instant someone tries to mention "2B," I reply with "lawyer."  Not a route I want to take, but one I am willing to take.

[lordmonar]

I can understand the fear of becomming persona non grata.......but if they are holding up your promotion for no good reason.....aren't you already there?

Worse......they are using you with out "paying" you!

Don't stop at group.  Go to the wing commander, use the IG system.   

Yep it may be cracked and twisted in some places......but not in all......and it will never get fixed until people with the balls to stand up and make it right.

If you just quit in June.....then they win and they get to screw over the next guy.

And don't be afraid of the 2b......first off.....if it is bogus.......it will get turned over in the long run (it may take awhile.....but if you stick to your guns it will get fixed). Second.........it is just CAP.   In the big scheme of things........if the environment you are working is that toxic you are probably going to quit anyways......so a 2b is sort of non issue......also on the good side of things.....a 2b has some hard and fast rules that would REQUIRE the chain of command to pay attention.   

It looks to me you have a commander who likes you.....but someon up the chain does not.....and your commander won't buck the system in your favor.     So any threat of a 2b is probably just that.....a threat......to get you to shut up and just go away.

Think of it as civil disobediance in the 50's.    You can't sit in the front of the bus.......sit there and get arrested and make a scene.     
Bottom line.....if you have completed all of your objective requirments for the grade.......then they either have to promote you or provide clear guidance of where you are failing in the subjective requirements.

Push them.....Unanswered letter to the Group CC.......send one to the wing CC.  That goes unanswered go to region and open an IG complaint at the region level (as this is a wing level decision).

This is always my advice to people who are not getting what they think they should out of CAP (or anything for that matter).  Too often leaders in CAP try to go the path of least resistance and don't do what they need to do....and try to GOBN it.

Does not happen on my watch.

We recently picked up a new member, trasfered from another wing.  Someone in our wing knew someone in the old wing and we were told to "stay away from him".  We picked him up anyways....when that happen the guy from our wing started repeating rumors about this member.....CPP violations, disrepectful, insubordinate....etc.   So my CC simply called our wing CC who cross decked it to the other wing CC.....turns out it was bad blood, some aligations but nothing in writing, no formal complaint.    Ergo.........we ignored it.

If you have a beef with someone.........record it.  A letter of conseling, letter of reprimand, 2b.....is all that it takes.
One of the reasons why I think we need some sort of CAPF 50 for seniors.

[MSG Mac]

CAPF 40 is the SM feedback form.

[Private Investigator]

When I first Joined CAP Last August, I was excited about rank, etc. Now it just seems to me like to much of an Hassle. Yes, being a Higher rank is awesome. I would hate to resew all of my ranks on my uniforms, jackets, flighsuits etc. It gets expensive. Alot of SM in my unit have been the same rank for 10 Plus years because they do not want to change there grade insignia over.

In CAP does "Rank" Really Matter? I mean yes someone higher ranking than you grants a salute and respect Etc. Im talking about the rank itself. You have a Lt. Col Pilot, and a Major SCC, then a 1st Lt DCC, Capt. ES Officer, Capt Safety Officer ,Major Chaplain, 2nd Lt PD Officer, etc. Who outranks Who? Yes they are Ranks, but does the Lt. Col Pilot outrank all of them? In Technicallity yes, but when it comes to Position in Leadership no. There is alot of people who are certain ranks filling in for not there Rank Position.

Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

I often wish I had done just that.  No, I wouldn't promote...but I'd be out of the loop of all this politics, nonsense and Bravo Sierra about promotions.

[Eclipse]

Great point. I always thought about going to my active duty rank, Staff Sergeant and just doing staff jobs in CAP Units. The only people who should have officer ranks are actual Unit Commanders and their Deputies.

I often wish I had done just that.  No, I wouldn't promote...but I'd be out of the loop of all this politics, nonsense and Bravo Sierra about promotions.

You could still do it anytime you want. Might be a nice "How do you do?" And ends the discussion for all involved.

[Private Investigator]

^ That could be a simple resolution   :clap: