Civilian jacket in CAP uniform

[Blues Brother]

CAP is supposed to be more than a local SAR team, volunteer fire department, or a group of vigilante searchers in their NFL jackets.

the people I was referring to are not vigilantes.  they are police officers.  nothing vigilante about that.

[AngelWings]

This has nothing to do with safety.  "Safety" is an excuse that people try to use when they can't comply with the rules, or want to wear something hardkewl that's not on the list.  FWIW, the ANSI II vest or jacket now required will be more visible then a white polar fleece, so its irrelevant.

So I cannot wear a MC Hammer outfit for terms of safety?   

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Man, some of my cadets have a hard time just getting money for dues!

If we can't issue a jacket, how can we require it?

What would you rather have, more cadets, or cadets in regulation outerwear?

In the Michigan Wing, cadet airmen wear what they can find.  Senior cadets start driving and purchasing SAR gear, M-65 BDUs, and purchasing blues outerwear. 

Most cadets don't stay for a year!  The ones that do, start to put their money into their uniforms.

A commander who doesn't turn a blind eye to this is short-sighted.  Maybe fund raisers are the way to go?

[abdsp51]

Man, some of my cadets have a hard time just getting money for dues!

If we can't issue a jacket, how can we require it?

What would you rather have, more cadets, or cadets in regulation outerwear?

In the Michigan Wing, cadet airmen wear what they can find.  Senior cadets start driving and purchasing SAR gear, M-65 BDUs, and purchasing blues outerwear. 

Most cadets don't stay for a year!  The ones that do, start to put their money into their uniforms.

A commander who doesn't turn a blind eye to this is short-sighted.  Maybe fund raisers are the way to go?

1) 39-1 states what is appropriate and what is not.  And it states that it cannot be made mandatory unless provided. 

2) Both! I'll take a handful of cadets who wear the uniform properly and put forth the effort to obtain the items stated in 39-1 that a bunch of cadets who don't and look rag tag. 

3) Sounds like a retention issue. Maybe you are not doing enough to stimulate their interest in the program/s.  And I would applaud those who do put their own money for they will learn a valuable lesson/s

There is the manual and then there is the commanders decision.  Members need to put forth the effort to obtain the proper uniform items through the various resources available.  Those that are near an AF base check to see if you can get access to the thrift shop and/or the Airman's Attic.  Check the dreaded evil bay as some have put it, check here check the local bookoo.com again if you are close to a AF base.  IMO all avenues and resources should be checked before throwing in the towel and wearing whatever.  Plenty of members complain about not being close enough to Ma Blue and that Ma Blue needs to fix the relationship when ultimately we need to take those steps and one of those is the proper wear of the uniform with the proper items.  Now ultimately if it is that **** cold then wear what is needed to stay warm but as a last resort and not the first. 

I found the windbreaker for the blues uniform at bookoo.com, and there is even a military uniform board similiar to here to advertise for uniform items. 

[Blues Brother]

a windbreaker?  I didnt even realize that CAP had a windbreaker available.

[abdsp51]

The windbreaker AKA AF Lightweight Blue Jacket. 

[Stonewall]

The windbreaker AKA AF Lightweight Blue Jacket.

[Pylon]

Yes.  CAP can be expensive.  It sucks when money is a barrier to participation.  But as much as people want to participate and have the best of intentions, sometimes without financial assistance from outside that just isn't possible.  Does the school football team let the kid play who couldn't afford the proper protective gear but shows up to practice with a bike helmet and syrofoam padding in his jersey?  It sucks when money is an issue.  I'm not denying that.  And I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who truly wanted to be in CAP be denied that opportunity because of financial circumstances.

My original point stands though.  BDU's aren't issued either.  Cadets somehow figure out how to put together (most often on their own dime) a regulation BDU shirt, trousers, belt, cap, leather boots, and nametapes so why do we draw the line of acceptable limits at a field jacket?   Why is it not acceptable for cadets whose parents could better use the money elsewhere to just show up in BDUs with no cover, a leather dress belt, white socks, and New Balance sneakers?  I mean, they want to participate.  They did put together a blouse with half of the required insignia, after all.  Shouldn't we just be grateful they tried and that they showed up at all?   Wouldn't we be insensitive, cold, and insuffrable people if we didn't just let the cadet with a BDU top and ABU pants and converse sneakers participate (because that's all he had)?    No.  What IS insensitive and un-cool is allowing these members who want to participate to have to feel like second-class citizens wearing their civilian outerwear.   If a cadet couldn't afford boots in our unit, wouldn't most of us pitch in to get him or her a pair of boots?   

I am not advocating just leaving out members who don't have the fiscal resources to participate in CAP in an appropriate, regulatory way.  Your war cry here in favor of reg-breaking civilian jackets is that it would be unjust to these well-meaning people.  I agree.   

So instead of seeing a member with fiscal difficulties who doesn't have the resources to properly participate in the program and just turning our heads away from their situation, pretending its not a problem and pretending we're not breaking cut & dry clear regulations, why don't we do what leaders would do in this situation:  help them; find a solution?

I explained in a previous post how my squadron responded to this exact same situation: many cadets and members without the resources and means to properly outfit their sons & daughters head-to-toe for CAP.  Understandable.  Completely understandable.  I'm not insensitive to this.  So in response we held some pancake breakfast fundraisers at the airport.  We got some donations from Walmart, and the EAA, and local businessmen.  And we turned around and invested in a whole stock of second-hand M65 field jackets (as well as BDU boots, dress shoes, BDU clothing and parts, and also later a whole slew of lightweight jackets and service coats).  Our squadron is able to issue every cadet who needs one a field jacket and/or a lightweight blues jacket.   That's what leaders do.  They don't ignore the issue.  The find a way to fix it.   So why isn't our response to pass the hat, or fundraise from the local community, or ask for a corporate sponsor, or to comb through Goodwill stores for military surplus?   People don't because ignoring the problem is easier. 

Don't take the lazy way out.  Be a leader. 

[Al Sayre]

Passing the hat can have mixed results, and access to BDU's may be limited by the member's area.  Several years ago I said that we need to have at least one corporate uniform that that anyone and everyone could wear, and could be put together at Walmart, Kmart, Sears, etc. for ~$50.  In the 80's, the USCG had a working uniform that consisted of a navy blue Dickies brand shirt and pants with a navy blue web belt, black shoes or boots, navy blue or organizational ball cap, and appropriate tapes & insignia.  Something along those lines would seem to solve the access and cost problems at the same time.  Wear with "suitable civilian outerwear, matching navy blue or black is preferred".   JMHO

[arajca]

I'll throw in another issue. I was planning a trip to wing supply, if any of my cadets needed anything. A couple announcements at meetings, a couple of emails, over a two week period to find out what they needed and what sizes. The response - Zip. Zero. Nada. As our sqdn has limited storage space, I am not going to just pick up stuff from wing and hope someone will want it. We turned a bunch of stuff in we didn't have room for AFTER three weeks of letting the members pick through it. About 100 pounds of bdu and blues uniforms.

So there the cadets do bear some responsibility for obtaining the correct uniforms, especially if they aren't going to bother to respond when free items are offered.

[Stonewall]

Yes.  CAP can be expensive.  It sucks when money is a barrier to participation.  But as much as people want to participate and have the best of intentions, sometimes without financial assistance from outside that just isn't possible.  Does the school football team let the kid play who couldn't afford the proper protective gear but shows up to practice with a bike helmet and syrofoam padding in his jersey?  It sucks when money is an issue.  I'm not denying that.  And I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who truly wanted to be in CAP be denied that opportunity because of financial circumstances.

My original point stands though.  BDU's aren't issued either.  Cadets somehow figure out how to put together (most often on their own dime) a regulation BDU shirt, trousers, belt, cap, leather boots, and nametapes so why do we draw the line of acceptable limits at a field jacket?   Why is it not acceptable for cadets whose parents could better use the money elsewhere to just show up in BDUs with no cover, a leather dress belt, white socks, and New Balance sneakers?  I mean, they want to participate.  They did put together a blouse with half of the required insignia, after all.  Shouldn't we just be grateful they tried and that they showed up at all?   Wouldn't we be insensitive, cold, and insuffrable people if we didn't just let the cadet with a BDU top and ABU pants and converse sneakers participate (because that's all he had)?    No.  What IS insensitive and un-cool is allowing these members who want to participate to have to feel like second-class citizens wearing their civilian outerwear.   If a cadet couldn't afford boots in our unit, wouldn't most of us pitch in to get him or her a pair of boots?   

I am not advocating just leaving out members who don't have the fiscal resources to participate in CAP in an appropriate, regulatory way.  Your war cry here in favor of reg-breaking civilian jackets is that it would be unjust to these well-meaning people.  I agree.   

So instead of seeing a member with fiscal difficulties who doesn't have the resources to properly participate in the program and just turning our heads away from their situation, pretending its not a problem and pretending we're not breaking cut & dry clear regulations, why don't we do what leaders would do in this situation:  help them; find a solution?

I explained in a previous post how my squadron responded to this exact same situation: many cadets and members without the resources and means to properly outfit their sons & daughters head-to-toe for CAP.  Understandable.  Completely understandable.  I'm not insensitive to this.  So in response we held some pancake breakfast fundraisers at the airport.  We got some donations from Walmart, and the EAA, and local businessmen.  And we turned around and invested in a whole stock of second-hand M65 field jackets (as well as BDU boots, dress shoes, BDU clothing and parts, and also later a whole slew of lightweight jackets and service coats).  Our squadron is able to issue every cadet who needs one a field jacket and/or a lightweight blues jacket.   That's what leaders do.  They don't ignore the issue.  The find a way to fix it.   So why isn't our response to pass the hat, or fundraise from the local community, or ask for a corporate sponsor, or to comb through Goodwill stores for military surplus?   People don't because ignoring the problem is easier. 

Don't take the lazy way out.  Be a leader.

It's funny how I see myself saying the exact same thing about 10 years ago (at age 30) and in a different wing/location.

Let me go back to the original situation that started this thread.  In my honest opinion, this should NOT have happened.  First, it was NOT that cold.  The cadet officer is probably 16 or 17 and not a 5 ft kid.  There were other, much younger/smaller cadets wearing short-sleeve shirts.  And I believe this cadet officer was even wearing a long-sleeve shirt since he was wearing a tie.  IMHO, the cadet did not need the jacket and was either showing off his new Real Tree hunting jacket or his uniform was jacked up underneath and was embarassed to show it.

As for the SM who questioned the cadet, he is new to CAP (about a year) and a retired Army E8 (combat arms type) of the Vietnam Era sort.  Crusty, a little harsh perhaps, but I like that in a way.  Reminds me of my cadet days where we had WWII through Vietnam vets as senior members.  They were as hard as woodpecker lips!

Here in FLWG, it does not get that cold for very long.  I was camping last weekend (Fri to Sat) and wore a sweatshirt at night and shorts during the day.  Yes, it's December!!!!  So IMHO, when we wear blues just once a month, there will likely be 3, maybe 4, and a max of 5 times PER YEAR that a GI Issue blues jacket would come into play.  BDUs are A LOT easy to stay warm in since they fit loosely (not tucked in), are long sleeved, and are easy to dress in layers underneath. 

Point:   It would be a waste of money to buy a 14 year old cadet an official jacket to wear with his blues in Florida that he likely could not fit into the following year, and for only a maximum of 5 opportunities to wear it since the weather doesn't call for a lot of cold gear.

In DCWG we lived near Bolling and Andrews AFB and got a crap-ton of surplus uniforms.  More than we knew what to do with.  Every cadet had service dress and many had the lightweight blue jacket.  And EVERYONE had either the field jacket or ECWCS parka/pants for BDUs.  Additionally, it was COLD a lot longer up there so even if someone did buy cold weather uniform items they at least got their use out of them.

As a parent (unlike 10 years ago), I would be hard pressed to buy my kid a uniform jacket that he/she was only going to use a handful of times.  Especially if it costs more than $50.  And I can afford it. 

Let's look at the possibility of an overnight bivouac in the winter.  Even here in FL it gets pretty cold, especially at night.  You're removed from the public's eye and conducting ground team training.  It gets down to 20 degrees and a cadet pulls out their civilian North Face jacket to stay warm.  Send them home?  Let them wear it?  Or do you conduct a pre-bivouac inspection to make sure only uniforms IAW 39-1 will be brought out to the field?

I am not advocating that members simply "wear what they got", I am not a fan of having to say that at all.  But I say BE A LEADER and choose the right option for the situation.  10 years ago I had a lot more time on my hands and would have been glad to spend time raising money or somehow acquiring uniform items for a few cadets who need something like boots or a jacket.  But today, I've got my own kids in Cub Scouts, Karate, Dance; I'm in the Guard, work 50 hours a week, and have all the responsibilities of a home owner (lawn, cleaning, laundry) and, as most of us CAP vets know, you're often one of the few (1 or 2) that are directly involved with the cadet program in a squadron.  Not to mention, times are tough and people don't have the money/resources they had 10 years ago.

I even stand by my own standard that cadets don't graduate T-Flight (8 week basic cadet training) until their BDUs are complete.  People ask how can I make this a requirement.  And I tell them I just do.  And it works!  But this is where I would identify which of the newer cadets may have financial issues and I (or the squadron) need to step in.  T-Flight will generally have between 5 and 10 new cadets so you can make it happen a little easier. 

But when it comes to jackets when it's cold, I would absolutely encourage and try to procure appropriate uniform items for all conditions.  However, I will not lose sleep over a cadet that shows up to a meeting with a civilian jacket and wears it for an hour.

[Blues Brother]

The windbreaker AKA AF Lightweight Blue Jacket.

OK gotcha.  I get it now. I was envisioning something like a pullover you see a football coach wearing and I didnt recall seeing that in 39-1. 

[Eclipse]

OK gotcha.  I get it now. I was envisioning something like a pullover you see a football coach wearing and I didnt recall seeing that in 39-1.

See page 75 for the official CAP windbreaker.  Not authorized with blues.


Can be customized with name and rating.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Honestly, nothing makes me irks me more in this world than seeing someone so grossly out of reg as mixing civies with our Blues. If you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it. Deal with out disrespecting my uniform. Countless men that have given their life to this country have worn this uniform so you have no right to disrespect the uniform. The importance of professionalism cannot be understated.

[Extremepredjudice]

At FLWG winter encampment this year we allowed doolies to wear civilian jackets with their blues.

It looked horrible. At least some of them made the effort to buy jackets that matched their blues. But some of them..... Seriously?

[abdsp51]

Honestly, nothing makes me irks me more in this world than seeing someone so grossly out of reg as mixing civies with our Blues. If you don't have the money, that's unfortunate...deal with it. Deal with out disrespecting my uniform. Countless men that have given their life to this country have worn this uniform so you have no right to disrespect the uniform. The importance of professionalism cannot be understated.

Lighten up buddy.  This is a topic about cadets not having the proper jackets not some SM.  And judging by your name trust me this was my uniform and several other AD/Ret AF types on this board long before it was yours.  Chill it with the tude and save the whole thing for legitimate wanna bees that actively disgrace the uniform.

[Airman De Ruiter]

Lighten up buddy.  This is a topic about cadets not having the proper jackets not some SM.  And judging by your name trust me this was my uniform and several other AD/Ret AF types on this board long before it was yours.  Chill it with the tude and save the whole thing for legitimate wanna bees that actively disgrace the uniform.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but it's may belief that strictly following the rules is one of the few ways we retain good military order. With all the work the Air Force has put into trying to maintain a professional appearance, there are Cadets and Senior Members destroying that in one fell swoop and it's just really upsetting. I physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.

[a2capt]

I physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.

Well, then.. CAP might be a life threatening thing. After all, there is power in numbers. Everything adds up. ...


There are bigger things to worry about on that level.

[abdsp51]

1) Civil Air Patrol is not in way shape or fashion the military so therefore military order is a moot point.

2) Cadets and SM with uniform violations are easy to correct which depending on the area is heavily needed. 

3) Make sure you wear YOUR uniform right and be a good influence on those you can influence and directly/indirectly impact.

If you are a cadet as you potentially your screen name and sig block seems to indicate do be aware that things here can follow you to your unit.  If you are an AF component then you need to really lighten there are bigger things to worry about. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I physically die a little on the inside every time I see it.

Well, then.. CAP might be a life threatening thing. After all, there is power in numbers. Everything adds up. ...


There are bigger things to worry about on that level.

Agreed.  The uniform issues might cause me a little bit of ag, but it is not worth dying internally over.