An interesting comparison

[NIN]

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/11/what-is-petraeus-legacy-ctd-1.html

I admit to a fair degree of "Bolivian Admiralty" on my CAP uniform (Let me think.. I think I had seven rows, and there were at least 1-2 I didn't wear just because I liked my ribbon rack nice and even) and cadets tend to be easily blinded by a lot of fruit salad.

I think back to WIWAC, and my squadron commander had maybe 6 or 7 ribbons, and the two most important ones that always stuck out to me?





Not much more needed to be said.

Nowadays, you get a ribbon for eating all your veggies at the chow hall.

[Cool Mace]

A very interesting read. It certainly gives one a lot to think about. I myself have never gave it a second thought. I just figured stars = ribbons.

[Eclipse]

I've seen this comparison in a bunch of places this week, and I'd say its more indicative of the times then the men.   Both would have had input into their respective uniforms, but neither created the "culture of me" that they live in, nor is bling limited to the Army, though they do seem to have an affinity for
filling in empty space.

Ike can be seen in photos with more on his uniform, usually when he's attending functions with foreign leaders who tended towards the shiny themselves.

Of course Ike had a little something extra on his shoulder that would tend to delineate Alpha male in a way that probably only the MoH could trump.

He's also alleged to have had his own dalliances, which makes the comparison even more appropo.

[AirDX]

My grandfather came from World War I home with one ribbon, a WWI Victory ribbon with 4 bronze battle stars. 
My father in law came home from World War II with five ribbons, including a Purple Heart and the EU-AF-ME Campaign Ribbon with 4 battle stars.
My Dad, after a career in the Air Force including service in Korea during the war, had 13 ribbons in his "rack".
According to the official portraits on the wall, the O-6 CC and the first sergeant where I work both wear 26 ribbons.

Inflation's been going on for nearly a century.

[jimmydeanno]

I think that the discussion really isn't about uniforms or awards at all.  I think that its more about society's reverence for the military.  In a time where more people only have familiarity of things military through movies, nearly every soldier seen is a national hero, even if they've only graduated boot camp (partly because of the visual of soldiers like Pataeus).  In our current climate, the military is "untouchable."  No politician is willing to put their necks out on the line and question the military establishment, budget, or even actions of its leaders.

Truman fired MacArthur and kept the military in check.

Ike warned us of the Military Industrial Complex.

[PHall]

I have 19 Federal ribbons and 5 State ribbons that I am entitled to wear on my Air Force Uniform.
The vast majority are BTDT type stuff. As a matter of fact, I have just 5 ribbons that I really care about.
These 5 ribbons are the ones I received as individual decorations ( MSM, AF Aerial Achievement, AF Comm, AF Achievement, and the California Medal of Merit ).
I actually had to do something "above and beyond" to get these. As opposed to being where I'm supposed to be for the rest...

[abdsp51]

I think that the discussion really isn't about uniforms or awards at all.  I think that its more about society's reverence for the military.  In a time where more people only have familiarity of things military through movies, nearly every soldier seen is a national hero, even if they've only graduated boot camp (partly because of the visual of soldiers like Pataeus).  In our current climate, the military is "untouchable." No politician is willing to put their necks out on the line and question the military establishment, budget, or even actions of its leaders.

Truman fired MacArthur and kept the military in check.

Ike warned us of the Military Industrial Complex.

Beg to differ, every time the budget is up they look to cut the defense budget across the board starting with retirements and quality of life issues.  Back in April I think I initially received a statement that I was only going to receive a hundred and some bucks because the budget hadn't been passed.  And earlier this year a Marine was discharged for contemptuous remarks about the president.  And now Patreaus and an active general are under investigation for an affair and a general was demoted for overspending.  Every fiscal year the defense budget gets put on the chopping block for cuts.  And not to mention McChrystal was basically canned for his stance on some of the presidents policies.   And lets not forget the Minot incident a few years ago as well.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've talked before about how much less blingage many other countries award than we do...last week Canada promoted an RCAF general to Chief of the Defence Staff, and I see E-1's and E-2's with more than he has:


General Thomas J. Lawson, CMM, CD

I don't think they have the option of wearing just "top three," like we do.

It wasn't always that way with us...my dad did two years active Army (including a tour in West Germany), two years National Guard, and I think all he had was the Army Good Conduct Medal, the Army Expert Marksman badge (with "Rifle" bar) and maybe two State ribbons...he didn't even qualify for the NDSM.

[Eclipse]

^ I would say it depends on the combo they are wearing.  This isn't exactly "subtle".

[AngelWings]

The thing I've always said is that we're promoting a healthy military generation by making their fruit salad bigger 

[GroundHawg]

I have 19 Federal ribbons and 5 State ribbons that I am entitled to wear on my Air Force Uniform.
The vast majority are BTDT type stuff. As a matter of fact, I have just 5 ribbons that I really care about.
These 5 ribbons are the ones I received as individual decorations ( MSM, AF Aerial Achievement, AF Comm, AF Achievement, and the California Medal of Merit ).
I actually had to do something "above and beyond" to get these. As opposed to being where I'm supposed to be for the rest...

Im in the same boat. If you take away the "fluffer" ribbons I probably have less than 7-8 that I really feel I earned and half of those are state awards. When an agency or service that is not your own goes out of their way to write you up for an award, when in reallity, they didnt have to and will probably never see you again... that means alot.

[kd8gua]

I've talked before about how much less blingage many other countries award than we do...last week Canada promoted an RCAF general to Chief of the Defence Staff, and I see E-1's and E-2's with more than he has:


General Thomas J. Lawson, CMM, CD

I don't think they have the option of wearing just "top three," like we do.

Clearly the Hap Arnold Achievement is one of their favorites...

[lordmonar]

I don't think we have all that many more flutter ribbons than 80-90 years ago....but we do have more wars then they did.

I joined in 86 and retired in 08....we had the cold war, Gulf War I, Operation Northern Watch, Operation Southern watch, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Global War on Terrorism, Iraq, Afganistan.......it is only logical that we would have more ribbons.

Take away the "give away" ribbons.....BMTS, Logevity, OS and OS Short, PME......and what exactly are we talking about?   

If we want less ribbons on our chest....we need to stop having wars.

End of Rant.

[NIN]

BTW, I am not 100% sure that "the military" needed to be "kept in check" at the time of MacArthur's firing. Most histories of Army and the DoD from around that time are pretty clear that Douggie Mac was off the reservation (politically speaking) on his own.  He was stepping across the military-civilian-political lines in a "bull in a china shop" way, but essentially it was just him.

Now, the Admiral's Revolt of 1949, that there was pretty good example of the "civilian control of the military" having to stomp on some heads.

[AirDX]

I think that the discussion really isn't about uniforms or awards at all.  I think that its more about society's reverence for the military. 

Fair enough.  I think society's reverence (at least for GOs) is getting a kick in the shorts, between Petraeus and the 4 other GOs in hot water right now.   

[NCRblues]

I think society's reverence (at least for GOs) is getting a kick in the shorts, between Petraeus and the 4 other GOs in hot water right now.

Na, this scandal is a relatively light one compared to ones of the past.

I.E. Patton slapping a soldier (plus his 50 other controversial times), Eisenhower's admission of years of cheating with his driver (his popularity went up over this one somehow), LeMay running as a VP candidate with a POTUS candidate that openly supported segregation and (last but not least, and one of my favorites) LeMay saying at the height of the Anti-Nam war movement that nukes are a good option in Vietnam.

It seems the American public has a tendency to forgive Generals and politicians when it comes to a sex scandal. I mean, just look our Former Arkansas Governor and Former POTUS

[Garibaldi]

I think society's reverence (at least for GOs) is getting a kick in the shorts, between Petraeus and the 4 other GOs in hot water right now.

Na, this scandal is a relatively light one compared to ones of the past.

I.E. Patton slapping a soldier (plus his 50 other controversial times), Eisenhower's admission of years of cheating with his driver (his popularity went up over this one somehow), LeMay running as a VP candidate with a POTUS candidate that openly supported segregation and (last but not least, and one of my favorites) LeMay saying at the height of the Anti-Nam war movement that nukes are a good option in Vietnam.

It seems the American public has a tendency to forgive Generals and politicians when it comes to a sex scandal. I mean, just look our Former Arkansas Governor and Former POTUS

Can't forget Kennedy. But then, everyone loved him AND Marilyn, so...

[Blues Brother]

I personally think its none of our business what public servants, celebrities, etc.. do with their personal lives as long as its not illegal activity.  if they truly do a good job at whatever their occupation/office/rank/ etc..... is,  it dont matter what they do with their personal life as long as it isnt illegal.   who are we the public to judge what goes on in anyone's personal life?  we dont know all of the circumstances and details involved, so what gives us the authority to judge them?  if they want a mistress or an affair, that is their decision, not ours.  if they drunk drive, or do drugs or whatever, well then thats against the law and they should be treated the same as any other citizen.

on a similar note....   Lance Armstrong used steriods and cheated?  well let him live with himself and his conscience.  why make a big deal in the press and media and put him in the limelight even more?  then people like this get book deals, etc... and profit from it.  yea thats really teaching them right from wrong. 

sometimes it amazes me how much effort is spent on this media sensationalized nonsense.

[NCRblues]

I personally think its none of our business what public servants, celebrities, etc.. do with their personal lives as long as its not illegal activity.  if they truly do a good job at whatever their occupation/office/rank/ etc..... is,  it dont matter what they do with their personal life as long as it isnt illegal.   who are we the public to judge what goes on in anyone's personal life?  we dont know all of the circumstances and details involved, so what gives us the authority to judge them?  if they want a mistress or an affair, that is their decision, not ours.  if they drunk drive, or do drugs or whatever, well then thats against the law and they should be treated the same as any other citizen.

on a similar note....   Lance Armstrong used steriods and cheated?  well let him live with himself and his conscience.  why make a big deal in the press and media and put him in the limelight even more?  then people like this get book deals, etc... and profit from it.  yea thats really teaching them right from wrong. 

sometimes it amazes me how much effort is spent on this media sensationalized nonsense.

Well, one of the problems (speaking just for military members) is that Article 134 of the UCMJ includes "Adultery" so, strictly speaking if the affair happens when the GO was on AD status he/she broke the law...

[Eclipse]

I personally think its none of our business what public servants, celebrities, etc.. do with their personal lives as long as its not illegal activity.  if they truly do a good job at whatever their occupation/office/rank/ etc..... is,  it dont matter what they do with their personal life as long as it isnt illegal.   who are we the public to judge what goes on in anyone's personal life?  we dont know all of the circumstances and details involved, so what gives us the authority to judge them?  if they want a mistress or an affair, that is their decision, not ours.  if they drunk drive, or do drugs or whatever, well then thats against the law and they should be treated the same as any other citizen.

As noted by NCRBlues, adultery >is< a crime in the military, and in at least 6 states as well.  In this case you have a 4-star, a Lt Colonel, a former 4-star / head of the CIA, and someone who is being described as a "collector".   People who believed they were either above the scrutiny they
impose and enforce on everyone else, or believed they were the smartest people in the room (or just didn't care).

Further, people who hold state secrets and wield incredible power, in some cases literally the power of life and death for hundreds, if not thousands of people, or maybe even the earth (if nukes are involved), should not be in a position to be compromised in any way because of personal entanglements.
It's hard enough to make life and death decisions with a clear head and conscious, let alone when you've got super-hero personal drama going on.

Then there's the issue of poor decision making and judgement.  Not to mention the very practical reality that the top spy in the known universe wasn't capable of keeping something like this private.

on a similar note....   Lance Armstrong used steriods and cheated?  well let him live with himself and his conscience.  why make a big deal in the press and media and put him in the limelight even more?  then people like this get book deals, etc... and profit from it.  yea thats really teaching them right from wrong. 

Because if he did cheat, he needs to be set up as an example to everyone else in the sport(s) that eventually this stuff will catch up with him.
In Armstong's case, I don't know if we will ever really know for sure.  When you rise that high, there are a lot of people who are jealous
and will do whatever they can to bring you down.  Other cheaters that got caught are not, IMO, your best source for further information,
but I think this was as much as situation of "Armstrong vs. the USDA" as "whether or not Armstrong actually cheated".  He had 500 some documented
tests with not a single positive result, and only a handful that were "questionable".  Clearly whatever the USDA was doing for their testing
protocols, they were ridiculous if he could simply "avoid" testing, etc. for that long.