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Author Topic: Why are Cadet Crossover Members so Rare?  (Read 15109 times)
Майор Хаткевич
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« on: October 11, 2012, 05:00:29 PM »

As a relatively new SM, I noticed one big thing - very few cadets turned SM. Why is that? I know some people walk away for a bit (college, work, family, etc), but come back and join at some point, but these people tend to be almost as rare as a cadet aging out and turning SM.


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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2012, 05:03:52 PM »

Most kids in their 20's are, naturally, more interested in themselves, their careers, and making their own nest.

It's not until things settle down / slow down a bit, maturity kicks in, and they want to start to give back or
make things better, etc.
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Pylon
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2012, 05:11:00 PM »

College/Military Service tends to happen right around the time cadets are eligible to become SM's, so it makes sense many cadets move on to other things during that critical period.  It would behoove CAP and squadrons, however, to "keep tabs" on their former cadets and where they end up after college/military service and see if they can't be recruited back once their lives settle down a bit.
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Cool Mace
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 05:17:52 PM »

There are some pros and cons to cadets transferring to senior.

From my experience with cadets that leave, they want to focus on collage for awhile or enlist in one of the Branches.

Most Wings have a rule that cadet-to-senior have to stay out of the cadet program for at least a year (sometimes more, some less), and that's a huge turn off.
I see the reasoning behind it on some aspects. Learn the senior side, distance from cadets, learn your role, ect...
Most seniors think that cadets moving over to the dark side still think like a 12 year old kid, when that's not the case.

Cadets that transfer to senior can be the biggest player when it comes to the cadets, because they are "with the times" when it comes to relating to them, and the cadets are more likely to seek their advise.

When you take someone out of a program that they have been in for 5+ years, they aren't too happy and quit.
Why?
When they pick a specialty track away from the CP, they are moved in with the "older crowd" who still think of them as that 12 year old cadet, and makes them uncomfortable.
Now this isn't always the case, just my experience with it. (I don't feel the awkwardness like others have)

I would recommend to any cadet that wants to transfer over, study the senior side before you do! Learn how the PD works, what they need to do to start on a specialty track, whatever they can do to get their foot in the door to make the move easier.

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Eaker #2250
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 05:27:19 PM »

Most Wings have a rule that cadet-to-senior have to stay out of the cadet program for at least a year (sometimes more, some less), and that's a huge turn off.
I see the reasoning behind it on some aspects. Learn the senior side, distance from cadets, learn your role, ect...
Most seniors think that cadets moving over to the dark side still think like a 12 year old kid, when that's not the case.

Actually, I don't think many wings do this.  I think they should, but far too many never give it a thought.
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CDCTF
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2012, 05:49:05 PM »


When they pick a specialty track away from the CP, they are moved in with the "older crowd" who still think of them as that 12 year old cadet, and makes them uncomfortable.


I am one of those rare few that aged out and have elected to turn SM.

I know why some, including myself to a point, don't want to rejoin. You hit the nail on the head with the treatment. As a cadet, most SMs think you're 12, even though you're clearly a 20 year old, third year engineering student that reads the Wall Street Journal (my case). That treatment translates once you switch over from cadet to SM, just when you thought you may finally get some respect. Even though you may have 3-5 years experience in CAP, they often look at CP experience as essentially irrelevant. In some cases it is, in most cases it isn't. As a mature cadet that has lead, you've dealt with ES, CP and Aerospace Education, which encompasses all three of our missions.

For me, it has been hard to balance an engineering course load and CAP, even just one night a week. I do it b/c I want to better my SQ b/c really I've never been 100% (heck, even 5%) happy with the way my SQ runs. That has motivated me to stay in, but not everyone has that motivation.

I think a lot take a "break" from CAP and it quickly becomes a thing of the past, something they'll never rejoin, they lose the passion and that's something that is just not easily regained.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 06:02:42 PM »

As a cadet, most SMs think you're 12, even though you're clearly a 20 year old, third year engineering student that reads the Wall Street Journal (my case).

Most 20 year olds in college have many miles to travel before they will be taken seriously by most adults.  Having to make your own way, write monthly checks, and being responsible for other people's well-being will bring you the authority of experience that college and the WSJ can't.

I know several mature cadets who can walk the line very well, and far too many who believe that just their diamonds give them a moral
imperative to "fix" CAP.   They walk in having been "big cheese" last week, find themselves a SMWOG this week and don't like not standing
at the front of the room, even though their relevant experience wouldn't place them there (yet).

Leading adults is a lot different then leading adolescents.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2012, 06:21:02 PM »

As a cadet, most SMs think you're 12, even though you're clearly a 20 year old, third year engineering student that reads the Wall Street Journal (my case).

Most 20 year olds in college have many miles to travel before they will be taken seriously by most adults.  Having to make your own way, write monthly checks, and being responsible for other people's well-being will bring you the authority of experience that college and the WSJ can't.

I know several mature cadets who can walk the line very well, and far too many who believe that just their diamonds give them a moral
imperative to "fix" CAP.   They walk in having been "big cheese" last week, find themselves a SMWOG this week and don't like not standing
at the front of the room, even though their relevant experience wouldn't place them there (yet).

Leading adults is a lot different then leading adolescents.


Yes, for some reason new seniors must "prove" themselves when there is no need to. Just being in collage, working in a full time career job and keeping up with CAP is not nearly enough.  :o

Eclipse, you second point was very bold (granted, about 99% of your posts are  >:D ). Being a 20 year old C/Maj/Lt Col/Col for some reason isn't enough to grant them the respect they deserve?
I don't think most cadets that transfer expect to be the CC's right hand (CDC or DCS) any time soon. But they do have more knowledge on the cadet side than just being a senior member will ever have. If you don't live that life, then you can't fully know.

Again, I don't think 99% of cadets that transfer over expect to be "leading" anyone right off the bat. We still have to "put our time in", just like any other brand new senior. But here's the difference.
Most cadets turning senior have been in for more than a few years by the time comes, and know more than just Joe Smith off the street. Other seniors should still show the proper respect to the "Transfers" that they earned as a cadet.

I haven't had any issue with this myself (or anything big enough to matter), but I have seen it done before.

YMMV
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Eaker #2250
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johnnyb47
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Van Dyke Cadet Squadron
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 06:25:27 PM »

Collage = (From the French: coller, to glue, French pronunciation: [kɔ.laːʒ]) is a technique of art production, primarily used in the visual arts, where the artwork is made from an assemblage of different forms, thus creating a new whole.
A College = (Latin: collegium) is an educational institution or a constituent part of one. Usage of the word college varies in English-speaking nations. A college may be a degree-awarding tertiary educational institution, an institution within a university, an institution offering vocational education, or a secondary school.

Sorry, it was killing me. :)
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Capt
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 06:35:10 PM »

Collage = (From the French: coller, to glue, French pronunciation: [kɔ.laːʒ]) is a technique of art production, primarily used in the visual arts, where the artwork is made from an assemblage of different forms, thus creating a new whole.
A College = (Latin: collegium) is an educational institution or a constituent part of one. Usage of the word college varies in English-speaking nations. A college may be a degree-awarding tertiary educational institution, an institution within a university, an institution offering vocational education, or a secondary school.

Sorry, it was killing me. :)

Thank you, Johnny. I thought it looked wrong, but went with it anyway.
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Eaker #2250
C/Lt Col, Ret.
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johnnyb47
Seasoned Member

Posts: 296
Unit: GLR-MI-117

Van Dyke Cadet Squadron
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 06:53:51 PM »

I'm here to help!

On the subject:
I think it has to do with the crummy jobs a 21 year old has to take to get into the work force, long school hours for those in college, that out of place feeling a lot of us had when we turned 20-21 (cant hang at the kids table but not old enough to sit at the old farts table) and they lack common ground with the average senior member.
After business is done and it's time to chit chat most of our seniors talk about their kids who are almost as old as a recently crossed over SM would be or, god forbid, all teh different "old people" ailments/surgeries we've been going through.

In short I think it's a combination of life changes and failure in the SM ranks (one side or the other) to find enough common ground to keep the new SM coming back.
 
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Capt
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »



In short I think it's a combination of life changes and failure in the SM ranks (one side or the other) to find enough common ground to keep the new SM coming back.


This reason right here is why I started studying the senior side when I was 19. I get along great with about 98% of the seniors in my Wing, and have a lot in common with them thanks to this.
I would encourage any cadet that age to make friends on the senior side when they feel comfortable to do so. Finding the common interest is a huge part of the transition!
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Eaker #2250
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arajca
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2012, 07:31:34 PM »

I have seen far more cadet-turned-to-senior members who have this crazy idea that they'll be able to fix everything that's wrong with the unit's cadet program without having a clue as to how the back-of-the-house works. I've lost count of how many times I've heard these members talk about "taking over the squadron" as soon as they turn 21.

As for having to 'prove' themselves, yes, they do. Before they get into a leadership position, they need to show they have made the mental switch from cadet to senior member, which is very difficult for many. And no, just because you were a C/Maj, C/Lt Col, or C/Col does not mean you understand how the cadet program runs, despite what the NB thinks.
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Garibaldi
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Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2012, 07:33:15 PM »

Life choices. I've known a few cadets who became seniors at 18 who decided to stick with it, and a few more who decided after a few months that the military was a better option. Right now, we have a 19 year old TFO former Spaatzen who is in college and is as active as life lets him be.

Most of the active seniors in my unit, with 3 other exceptions, have zero cadet experience: myself, the CC (who was also a Spaatz cadet. Turns out he joined 3 years after I did and has had a plethora of life and CAP experience that I do not. After 5 years I managed to get to the lofty grade of C/SSGT and no position higher than element leader), and the aforementioned TFO and his brother, also a Spaatzen, who is also a Major.

Many former cadets have issues separating themselves from their former cadet friends, like Johnny said, even if they were superior to them as cadets. There's also the issue of money. College students and those just starting out in the workforce have little extra money for CAP, or time for that matter. Once they see that pretty much anything they want to do as a SM costs money they don't have, they tend to get disillusioned. That, and actually having to work for a CAP living in a job that needs to be done that they may not necessarily want to do, like logistics or historian (nothing against either of those jobs).
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2012, 07:40:37 PM »

My unit is probably well outside the norm when it comes to this situation.  About 75% of my seniors are former cadets, and our average senior age is about 27.  The cadets that have graduated or are in college have transitioned to senior membership, but they aren't part of my unit any longer.

I think that a lot of it has to do with approaching the subject before the day that they arrive at the time to make the decision.  From my experience as a cadet, becoming a senior member just wasn't something that was thought about.

Additionally, with career building, family starting, college, military life, etc., often the demands for time are far greater than what they can give as they adjust to their new-found independence.  For example, a cadet that joins the Air Force is going to find themselves going to BMT, Tech School, getting to their first base.  This is the time when being active in CAP is going to first be a possibility.  However, now they have to work on becoming proficient in their jobs, passing their CDCs, and getting enough stuff done to get promoted.  Mix this in with deployments, etc., and you may have a senior member, but not a very active one.

I do think that Eclipse has a good sense of the majority of cadets that do turn senior, however.  Even highly successful cadets that earn the Spaatz, or whatever, often have a difficult time transitioning because being IN the cadet program, and RUNNING the cadet program are vastly different.  As a cadet, you get the opportunity to work with adults that are running the program.  As an adult, you get to work with adults who aren't in the program.  These two scenarios have vastly different expectations of results, and there is little to no safety net for the latter. 

So, it's no wonder that experienced officers have reservations about putting a brand new cadet -> senior member and putting them in some sort of leadership position, despite all the "experience" that they have.  I'd love to take the majority of our seniors and make them Deputy for Cadets or Seniors, but between their life demands and lack of experience, the end result wouldn't be very good.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

I'm not particularly worried about the small numbers of those that go straight from cadet to senior for all the reasons mentioned above. 

However, as a former cadet that rejoined about 10 years later I do think there is a pool of hundreds of thousands of former cadets that could potential be recruited as seniors. 

The problem is maintaining contact with these former cadets through the 10-20 years most will take to get established before they are truly able and interested in rejoining the program.  Obviously their old address, phone number, and email addresses are likely to be invalid. 

I think social media may actually be helping maintain this link between cadets and CAP.  If they "liked" CAP's facebook page as a cadet, they'll probably maintain that "like" going forward and get constant reminders about what CAP is doing and sooner or later that might draw them back in.  The rise of social media is probably too new for this effect to be noticed, but I think it has potential. 

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Captain Needa
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« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2012, 08:42:24 PM »

As a cadet, most SMs think you're 12, even though you're clearly a 20 year old, third year engineering student that reads the Wall Street Journal (my case).

Most 20 year olds in college have many miles to travel before they will be taken seriously by most adults.  Having to make your own way, write monthly checks, and being responsible for other people's well-being will bring you the authority of experience that college and the WSJ can't.

I know several mature cadets who can walk the line very well, and far too many who believe that just their diamonds give them a moral
imperative to "fix" CAP.   They walk in having been "big cheese" last week, find themselves a SMWOG this week and don't like not standing
at the front of the room, even though their relevant experience wouldn't place them there (yet).

Leading adults is a lot different then leading adolescents.


Yes, for some reason new seniors must "prove" themselves when there is no need to. Just being in collage, working in a full time career job and keeping up with CAP is not nearly enough.  :o

Eclipse, you second point was very bold (granted, about 99% of your posts are  >:D ). Being a 20 year old C/Maj/Lt Col/Col for some reason isn't enough to grant them the respect they deserve?
I don't think most cadets that transfer expect to be the CC's right hand (CDC or DCS) any time soon. But they do have more knowledge on the cadet side than just being a senior member will ever have. If you don't live that life, then you can't fully know.

Again, I don't think 99% of cadets that transfer over expect to be "leading" anyone right off the bat. We still have to "put our time in", just like any other brand new senior. But here's the difference.
Most cadets turning senior have been in for more than a few years by the time comes, and know more than just Joe Smith off the street. Other seniors should still show the proper respect to the "Transfers" that they earned as a cadet.

I haven't had any issue with this myself (or anything big enough to matter), but I have seen it done before.

YMMV

Speaking as a Senior Member who joined at the tender age of 18 (who has a sister and brother about to make the Cadet to SM jump), I can certainly relate to both sides of this.  I don't think cadets should expect any special treatment though.  They should be listened to--same as any other adult member with experience in a certain area--but they have to prove themselves as well.  In fact, they do have it a bit harder, just by the very nature of switching.  They used to be a cadet, but now they're not.  That's going to take time for EVERYONE to get used to--cadets and fellow seniors alike--and the former cadet has to be able to re-forge their place in the squadron.  This is especially true with cadets moving to SM in their same unit.

And while I have incredible respect for those who have achieved their Spaatz award, sorry, it's not an all-inclusive achievement that makes you automatically smarter than everyone else.   :o

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SarDragon
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2012, 08:47:42 PM »

I crossed over a very long time ago. One thing that helped me was the 1+ year break in participation caused by Navy boot camp and the follow-on tech school. I turned SM when I enlisted, but maintained my membership. The other thing that helped was the move to a different unit in a different wing, when I finally started participating again.
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Dave Bowles
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2012, 10:11:41 PM »

I never had time.  Becoming a Senior Member was the farthest thing from my mind when I graduate High School.  I graduated on a Thursday night, and Saturday morning I was at MCRD San Diego.  It wasnt until about a year after I got out of the Marines that I was moving some things out of my parents house and pulled my cadet uniform shirt and pants out of the garment bag that was hanging in a closet.  Complete blues with ribbons just as they were when I hung them up for the last time 6 years earlier.  Even had a ketchup stain on them from my little going away thing I had at McDonalds on the way home from my last meeting.   Talk about interesting flashbacks to some of the greatest times of my life! 

So I looked up the local unit, Hemet Ryan Sq 59 and went to a meeting.  And there it started all over again.  I never viewed being a cadet as a transition into being a SM.  To me, they were to totally separate organizations if you will, with two totally separate missions.  My view, and still is, that being a cadet sets you up to get started on life more mature and able than the average teen.  Being a SM was something to come back to after I was an established adult with something to offer.  To be totally honest, if I hadn't pulled that uniform out of my old childhood closet that lazy afternoon, I dont know that CAP would have entered back into my mind.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2012, 11:17:58 PM »

FWIW.....the BSA has this same problem....most scouts move on to do other things and then don't get invovled again until they have kids of their own.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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spacecommand
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2012, 05:17:40 AM »

I think the "cross over" happens much later in life.  In my unit we have quite a few senior members who were cadets "a long time ago" but came back into CAP as senior members later in life.  Things simply "get in the way", college, work/careers etc, things tend to settle down a bit later in life and they re-join, many (in my unit) tend to be retired or near retirement or pretty much settled down in life (but still  young ;) ) before they joined in as Senior Members after being cadets in their younger days.

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BillB
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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2012, 11:46:18 AM »

During the period between World War II and Korea, it was very common for cadets to turn Senior between the 18-21 year bracket. In the Squadron I was in probably 75% (as a guess) fell into this condition. These cadets turned senior were given non-com grades based on the highest level completed in the cadet program. mThere were no warrent officer or flight officer positions at that time period. I was given the grade of MSgt based on completing ach. 9 in the cadet program. Ever see a 19 year old MSgt? With a cadet COP you got Sgt grade.
The period of WW II up to probably 1960, before Jack Sorensen came up with basically the current cadet program, would find more cadets crossover to senior membership directly from cadet status. Why the changes mentioned in other posts of a break in membership is beyond my experiences of the period. Cadet then still retained cadet or senior membership while attending colleges, often transferring to squadrons near their schools. Now it seems that college students drop membership. Why?
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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SamFranklin
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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 01:30:11 PM »

The percent of cadets who turn senior may be low, but the percent of seniors who were cadets must be quite considerable. Look at the highest levels of CAP for an example.

Of the 17 individuals on the last iteration of the BoG/NEC (before the governance changes), 6 are former cadets  (Anderson, Lee, Vasquez, Chazell, Phelka, Parris). That's better than one-third, and a stat that CAP should be proud of.

I agree that college and first jobs and new families explain why so few 20-something ex-cadets stay in CAP.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 02:33:21 PM »

I think part of it may be that a fair number of cadets are interested in becoming pilots when they grow up which leads them to CAP.  However, when they're older they realize just how expensive it is to be a pilot, CAP or otherwise, and that reduces their incentive to stay with CAP.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 02:39:50 PM »

How many colleges have units?
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 03:02:05 PM »

How many colleges have units?

Colleges with AFROTC have CAP units, but they aren't traditional CAP units as we know them.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 04:02:57 PM »

How many colleges have units?

Colleges with AFROTC have CAP units, but they aren't traditional CAP units as we know them.

A few do, but it's by no means consistent..

There are less then 150 schools that offer AFROTC, and another under 900 associated with a nearby detachment.

There are less then 1500 CAP units total.
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2012, 04:40:16 PM »

How many colleges have units?

Colleges with AFROTC have CAP units, but they aren't traditional CAP units as we know them.

A few do, but it's by no means consistent..

There are less then than 150 schools that offer AFROTC, and another under 900 associated with a nearby detachment.

There are less then than 1500 CAP units total.

FTFY  >:D

Grammar patrol...AWAAAAAYYYYYYY!!! *flies into the sunset*
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coudano
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2012, 04:54:59 PM »

imho, to be a productive senior member requires one to have an abundance of talent, time, and energy, AND the capability and willingness, and motivation to share it.  in my experience, old cadets and young senior members rarely possess this.  the ones that do, stay on and often do great things.  the others just go on with their lives.  fwiw, we do a mediocre job of setting people up for that transition, of basically consumer of the program to producer of it.  freal, -most- of the cadets i have tried to transition have looked at the other side and just said.  nah, not interested.

additionally it may be a shock going from mom and dad paying your $40 a year plus uniform and activity fees  and transportation to you paying for your own $80 a year plus uniform, activity fees, transportaation, and if you work with cadets, probably covering part of someone elses too...   all during that magical few years where you make rent barely by sharing an apartment with 3 roommates, sit on a futon you picked up off the street, and consider peanut butter sanwiches and ramen a good, full meal :)
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BillB
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2012, 07:25:06 PM »

Up to about ten years ago, every SAFROTC Detachment sponsored a CAP unit within the AFROTC program. USAF paid part of the dues. Each AFROTC CAP unit had it's own charter number NOT a Wing charter number, but rather one of a block issued to AFROTC More often than not there was little contact between the CAP members in the AFROTC unists and the local CAQP Squadron. by CAP NHQ. Florida Wing on the other hand chartered a unit at the University of Florida for cadets and seniors attending the University and included the members that joined the AFROTC-CAP unit. That Squadron known as Headquarters Composite Squadron, SER-FL-002 only lasted 3-4 years but produced more Spaatz cadets than the rest of the Souitheast Region combined. Cadets were transferred back to their home Squadron for the Spaatz presentations.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
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« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2012, 11:15:28 PM »

As a cadet, most SMs think you're 12, even though you're clearly a 20 year old, third year engineering student that reads the Wall Street Journal (my case).

Most 20 year olds in college have many miles to travel before they will be taken seriously by most adults.  Having to make your own way, write monthly checks, and being responsible for other people's well-being will bring you the authority of experience that college and the WSJ can't.

I know several mature cadets who can walk the line very well, and far too many who believe that just their diamonds give them a moral
imperative to "fix" CAP.   They walk in having been "big cheese" last week, find themselves a SMWOG this week and don't like not standing
at the front of the room, even though their relevant experience wouldn't place them there (yet).

Leading adults is a lot different then leading adolescents.

I guess there's an assumption that just b/c you're in college you're apparently not paying your own way or responsible for anything. In my cadet career my parents paid for exactly zero activities, exactly zero uniform items, and drove me to meetings or activities exactly zero times. Then in college my parents names are on exactly zero of my student loans, and they have paid for exactly zero books and supplies. Let's not be hasty and assume that just b/c someone is 21 years old that they haven't had to write monthly checks or make their own way. Not trying to be hostile, but, that attitude is kind of the problem that I think arises in the SM program of CAP. There is a lot of assuming, not trying to get to know the individual. "You're a cadet? You obviously don't know anything outside of drill and ceremonies." "Oh you're 21 years old? Wait until you're a grown up and have to start paying for things."

I can't remember how many times my CC would ask me how I was planning on paying for an activity or what not and I would say "Well, I'm going to try to work some extra hours and maybe if I can save enough I'll go or maybe I won't be able to go." It's like he couldn't imagine that there was a cadet out there that couldn't just ask his parents for $250.

Once again, not trying to get up in your "grill", I just don't like when people assume something about me. It happened at my SQ, it happens at my school, and now, it happens on CAP Talk.
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Critical AOA
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2012, 12:05:26 AM »

FWIW.....the BSA has this same problem....most scouts move on to do other things and then don't get invovled again until they have kids of their own.

But does the BSA have anything for adults besides being a scout master?  CAP does have a lot to offer the adults besides being a SM in CP which could be looked at as the CAP equivalent of a scout master.   
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"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw
Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2012, 12:06:38 AM »

You kinda missed the point on that and went direct to taking it personally.    If you're one of the small percentage of people who,
by either choice or circumstance, had to pay their own way and make it on their own, good on 'ye (x2).

But we're talking at the macro level, and at the macro, not only do few people under 25 pay their own way for anything, its is more
and more common for people to delay leaving the house at all and accept the realities of life.
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Critical AOA
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« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2012, 12:07:45 AM »

I think part of it may be that a fair number of cadets are interested in becoming pilots when they grow up which leads them to CAP.  However, when they're older they realize just how expensive it is to be a pilot, CAP or otherwise, and that reduces their incentive to stay with CAP.

Agreed. One of the things that motivated me to get back into CAP was that I finally did get my pilot license. 
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"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw
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« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2012, 04:38:02 AM »

You kinda missed the point on that and went direct to taking it personally.    If you're one of the small percentage of people who,
by either choice or circumstance, had to pay their own way and make it on their own, good on 'ye (x2).

But we're talking at the macro level, and at the macro, not only do few people under 25 pay their own way for anything, its is more
and more common for people to delay leaving the house at all and accept the realities of life.

Some of us were dumb and got off the gravy train at 18...
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SarDragon
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« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2012, 04:56:12 AM »

You kinda missed the point on that and went direct to taking it personally.    If you're one of the small percentage of people who,
by either choice or circumstance, had to pay their own way and make it on their own, good on 'ye (x2).

But we're talking at the macro level, and at the macro, not only do few people under 25 pay their own way for anything, its is more
and more common for people to delay leaving the house at all and accept the realities of life.

Some of us were dumb and got off the gravy train at 18...

I was drafted at 20.  8)
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2012, 01:01:11 PM »

My son was a cadet and is currently in his 1st semester at college in the town where our original squadron is. He planned on getting back into CAP and going SM, but between classes and working, his time's packed.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2012, 03:00:39 PM »

You kinda missed the point on that and went direct to taking it personally.    If you're one of the small percentage of people who,
by either choice or circumstance, had to pay their own way and make it on their own, good on 'ye (x2).

But we're talking at the macro level, and at the macro, not only do few people under 25 pay their own way for anything, its is more
and more common for people to delay leaving the house at all and accept the realities of life.

Some of us were dumb and got off the gravy train at 18...

I was drafted at 20.  8)

I drafted myself into a relationship. To each his own?  :D
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bosshawk
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« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2012, 04:23:02 PM »

You had a choice: Dave likely didn't.
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Paul M. Reed
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« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2012, 05:58:20 PM »

Dave always had Canada.  >:D

But speaking of the draft...I had to sign up for the selective service or I wouldn't get my citizenship, yet it seems almost none of my friends have signed up and yet are still not in jail...what gives?
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PHall
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« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2012, 07:22:26 PM »

Dave always had Canada.  >:D

But speaking of the draft...I had to sign up for the selective service or I wouldn't get my citizenship, yet it seems almost none of my friends have signed up and yet are still not in jail...what gives?

Yeah, but they can't get stuff like Pell Grants or Federal Student Loans.

Or at least they're not supposed to be able to get them if they haven't registered.




And your Canada joke is not even close to being funny... >:(
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SarDragon
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« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2012, 08:18:11 PM »

Dave always had Canada.  >:D

But speaking of the draft...I had to sign up for the selective service or I wouldn't get my citizenship, yet it seems almost none of my friends have signed up and yet are still not in jail...what gives?

If I had gone to Canada, my dad would have been the first one to rat me out. It simply was not an option.

As for signing up, there isn't an aggressive effort to chase these folks down. What usually happens is that they get nabbed when they try to get a benefit somewhere else and their name pops up as not having registered.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2012, 08:57:30 PM »

I know for a fact they got Pell grants...which is why I was surprised.

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RiverAux
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« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2012, 10:19:35 PM »

Probably just have to say that they registered.  Doubt that they check. 
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hotoppb
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« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2012, 07:45:14 AM »

i got out and joined the Air Force.
Saw a local squadron at my tech school and decided to join again.
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FW
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« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »

By the time I reached college, I went thru the cadet program and had nothing more to gain.  I did join up with a local squadron however, I wasn't allowed to officially transfer to this unit (my home unit didn't want to lose a prospective Spaatz cadet).  This actually soured my attempts to stay.  Then again, my interests changed and, I was moving on. CAP already gave me the tools needed to be successful and; I did.  After 10 years of learning, establishing myself and, starting a family; I felt a need to "give back".  I rejoined my old unit and, for the next 30 years, had a great time. 
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Smith
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« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2012, 09:35:53 PM »

I honestly believe there are few crossovers because to some degree, though we may not like to think so, most cadets only care about their success and recognition and then move on after their cadet experience thinking they "have learned everything and gotten everything out of CAP."

I, on the other hand, truly cared about teaching and helping others succeed and progress, which is why I did not promote as much as a cadet (Earhart). It is also why I also transitioned to SM after turning 21.

The squadron had many "great" cadets who did all these things and were "good examples," but now the squadron suffers and is about to suffer more because those great cadets did not teach their predecessors or pass on their "knowledge" and the junior cadets do not know what to do because others did it for them.

Sp, I guess what I'm trying to say, and kind of failing at, is that the program itself is not pushing the importance or teamwork, helping each other, and putting others before yourself, and most importantly leadership. Successful leaders care about the people under them and their successes. I've learned that by the success that my followers achieve, the more I benefit. I have seen lately that the focus is more on self satisfaction.

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AngelWings
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« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2012, 01:39:06 AM »

CAP is like an electric bull. You ride it for the fun, and it kicks you off, and sometimes you decide to get right back and some times you decide it is not as fun anymore. Just like anything else in life.

I know if I have kids, I want them to join CAP at least for a few meetings. I give CAP full credit for making me the person I am today, giving me my best hours, and giving me the strength to keep my head up in the face of adversity. CAP is a life saver for young men and women such as myself, but I am not sure of its ability to be as impacting as Senior Member.

I will also go and say admitingly is that I am both young and things may change drastically within two years time and I could re-up with no regrets, keeping active. I am also unable to clearly see into my future with CAP considering how things are with the organization, but I believe CAP will never leave me for as long as I live. Some parts of growing up are realizing things that used to mean so much to you don't any longer. Hell, I used to want to do a bunch of crazy things when I was really young that I cannot stand now.

I would like to also note that everyone who thinks their role in CAP is unimportant, you are dead wrong. I want to be with a family of decent men and women. Each and every member of CAP makes CAP what it is. You're all very important, more important than wing commanders, the national commander, or any other high ranking CAP member. You're all part of a team, and one thing I've learned is that what makes me take another day of physical (and economical) punishment with CAP is the people I spend my time with.

I've met some really awesome people who I hope I'll know for the rest of my life. All of you are instrumental to the retention of young kids like me. I love having people who I both relate to and can feel are on my team.
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umpirecali
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 04:14:52 AM »


Most 20 year olds in college have many miles to travel before they will be taken seriously by most adults.  Having to make your own way, write monthly checks, and being responsible for other people's well-being will bring you the authority of experience that college and the WSJ can't.

I think attitudes and expectations towards our young people are part of the problem.  You said it yourself, "most 20 years olds...before they will be taken seriously by adults", so you don't consider a 20 year old an adult.  When we (collective we) don't treat them like adults and give the adult responsibilities, we perpetuate the problem.  I was a youth pastor and when they became too old to be in the youth program, I treated them as equals.  I look at young SM's they same way.  If a 19 yr old TFO senses that you view them as a child, then they won't want to be around you. Now, I understand the progression of life experience, and maturity separates several levels of adults and depending on the person, the age will vary.  I know irresponsible 28 yr olds that live at home and work at Starbucks (my brother-in-law) and I know a mature 18 year old who started his own business when he was 16.  What we put them in charge of isn't a function of age but proven track record. 

As others have said, most 20-something's have other priorities as I did at that age and I think that accounts for why so few crossovers, however I treat a FO no different than a white hair.
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Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2012, 09:34:56 PM »

I know in my case I made every attempt to work as a senior member after the dreaded 21 forced change over, believe me it was like pulling teeth to give up being a cadet. 

After becoming a senior member a few things happened that “forced” me to put CAP on the back burner. 

The first was college, when I became a senior member I was already elbow deep in college, and taking on task as a senior member became a increasing challenge, as  I was to busy studying, and other “college” related activities. 

Second, was the eye opening relaxed atmosphere that was being a senior member, i.e. relaxed military C/C, etc.

Third, and probably having the most impact on my separation, was this girl I met and then decided to throw large amounts of money at, who then produced other people at whom I have had to throw even larger amounts of money at.

Finally after finishing college, I became a firefighter, and had family, and focused on my career. 

I have now come full circle and am in the position where my son wants, and I would like for him, to join.  I will foster this; however, I do no know if this is something I need to let him do for him self or join now and experience it from this side with him. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 10:41:38 PM by FDLT19 » Logged
umpirecali
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« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2012, 09:55:58 AM »

We had an 18 year old last week become a SM after being a C/Capt.  Time will tell how involved in the dark side he gets.
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Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2012, 02:33:00 PM »

Dave always had Canada.  >:D

But speaking of the draft...I had to sign up for the selective service or I wouldn't get my citizenship, yet it seems almost none of my friends have signed up and yet are still not in jail...what gives?

Yeah, but they can't get stuff like Pell Grants or Federal Student Loans.

Or at least they're not supposed to be able to get them if they haven't registered.




And your Canada joke is not even close to being funny... >:(

They can't get security clearances.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2012, 02:45:03 PM »

...so you don't consider a 20 year old an adult.


Nope.
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Texas Raiders
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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

I was a very active cadet until I turned 18 and joined the military.  I rolled over to the senior program with my squadron.  Ultimately, I fell inactive as my military duty station was over 300 miles from my hometown and my squadron.  My priorities changed and were focused upon my military career.  I served for twelve years and then my career intentions changed and I became a career firefighter/EMT.  Until recently, I had no intentions of rejoining.  There was small private aircraft that went down near Simsbury, CT a while back.  I immediately thought of CAP and whether or not they'd be utilized (they were).  This incident refreshed my interest in CAP, motivated me to find a squadron, and attend some meetings.  Needless to say, I'm back.   

I think I'll be a better senior member because of my time away.  Over the years, I have become a mature adult and have gained a wealth of knowledge and experience along the way.  I don't think I would have been a good senior member if I had stuck around before. 
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SM Randy Patterson
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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2012, 04:04:41 PM »

I agree with eclipse about twenty year olds.  Now at 20 I would argued diffrent, 37 not so much.
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a2capt
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« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2012, 05:35:08 PM »

I've had experiences with Cadets turn Senior that just can't separate themselves and in fact, become advocates and enablers for cadets .. when some cadets are ripe for pushing the envelope.

When you have comments like "We like SM XXXX (substitute up to Capt.), he lets us do things the other senior members won't..)

Nothing good can come of that.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2012, 06:06:32 PM »

I've had experiences with Cadets turn Senior that just can't separate themselves and in fact, become advocates and enablers for cadets .. when some cadets are ripe for pushing the envelope.

When you have comments like "We like SM XXXX (substitute up to Capt.), he lets us do things the other senior members won't..)

Nothing good can come of that.

That probably means that SM/Lt/Capt XXXX needs some training. Did anyone talk to them about the role of SMs?

I didn't get a talk like that (I did read a few transition/welcome guides however), but I've been operating under the model of "if I wasn't allowed to do it, they aren't allowed to do it either" and "Yea it sounds cool, but I can see it turning ugly quick". Hasn't failed me yet.
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umpirecali
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« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2012, 10:16:12 PM »

...so you don't consider a 20 year old an adult.


Nope.

Would you say that in front of a bunch AD SrA's and SSgt's?
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Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2012, 10:38:19 PM »

Probably would. I don't agree with the viewpoint (I'm 22), but I see what they are getting at. My 22 year old self would smack my 18 year old self.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2012, 10:39:44 PM »

...so you don't consider a 20 year old an adult.


Nope.

Would you say that in front of a bunch AD SrA's and SSgt's?

Depends on time frame. When I was around that age, in an essentially peacetime environment, definitely. Today, with all the young'uns who have been deployed at least once by their 20th birthday, maybe not. But there are still many 20 year olds in the military noticeably lacking maturity. In that case, they still aren't quite adults.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2012, 04:19:33 AM »

I have a bunch of A1C, SrA types in my unit.  At times, I want to smack them and tell them to grow up.  Some are mature and are fine, but the dorm rat just out of tech school group still has A LOT of growing up to do.  That isn't to say that they aren't adults, but there is still a lot of work that can be done.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2012, 04:28:46 AM »

...so you don't consider a 20 year old an adult.


Nope.

Would you say that in front of a bunch AD SrA's and SSgt's?

Yes.
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MSG Mac
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« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2012, 06:36:49 PM »

Back on subject. The reason so many Cadets don't immediately turn senior is that nowhere in the Cadet Programs or any of the advanced courses is the Senior Member Program presented. They all seem to know that if they reach a milestone award they can come in at an advanced grade, but little else.
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Michael P. McEleney
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« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2012, 06:55:22 PM »

Back on subject. The reason so many Cadets don't immediately turn senior is that nowhere in the Cadet Programs or any of the advanced courses is the Senior Member Program presented. They all seem to know that if they reach a milestone award they can come in at an advanced grade, but little else.

Maybe the SDA program for cadet officers is intended to be their introduction to the dark side.
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2012, 03:31:35 AM »

Back on subject. The reason so many Cadets don't immediately turn senior is that nowhere in the Cadet Programs or any of the advanced courses is the Senior Member Program presented. They all seem to know that if they reach a milestone award they can come in at an advanced grade, but little else.

Maybe the SDA program for cadet officers is intended to be their introduction to the dark side.

I believe it is, or it certainly could serve as one. Unfortunately the "internship" portion seems to be more or less skipped over. There are a million excuses , it's a cadet-only squadron who doesn't have any senior members fulfilling the duties being studied, the seniors meet on a different night, the needed senior member isn't available (or worse, avoids cadets). It's shame, I think the SDA program could be valuable in a cadet's progression to senior member.
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okeecap
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« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2012, 04:31:07 AM »

I know as a cross over member myself it is rare.  When I was under 21 nobody I knew at my squadron in Georgia at the time had a clue what to do with me.  I transitioned at 18 and was sort of promoted to FO after level one, meaning I got the ranks and ceremony but never the papers.  At my old squadron in GA I was told by a member who was in CAP since the dawn of time that he had not really seen it.  I think that if there were some sort of transition course that the amount of cadet to senior would increase.
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Paul_AK
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« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2012, 01:38:37 PM »

If you look to actively recruit Seniors from the Cadet ranks I would say focus on career progression. In any transition course I would say look at what they are interested in and show them how staying on as a Senior could keep that rolling. The few people I have run into who have started out as Cadets have all seemed to have that in mind. Whether they liked the Aerospace education portion or maybe enjoyed mentoring, if they can can somehow keep that focus you will have a few more then you do now.

Now some of that may already be happening, I have been out of the game for a couple of years now, after all. But all I know is my transition was quite the learning curve as I was not the best Cadet I could have been.
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Paul M. McBride
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« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2012, 09:24:04 PM »

While I don't see a lot of members who cross over, there seems to be a substantial number who return later in life...
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Lt Col Al Sayre
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« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2012, 10:24:24 PM »

The conversation has been on track. My experence turning senior was 30 years ago but the story is still the same.

The cadets treat you as a senior and the seniors treat you like a cadet. You have no friends in the unit. Since some of CAP's pay is social that hurts. If you luck out and can find a senior to mentor/befriend you (invite you to the senior social events like coffee after the meeting.) you are lucky. Often you have more time in the program than many seniors in the unit. Since many cadets join in a group and tend to be about the same age, if you can get a buddy to come over at the same time it helps.

Many cadet go off to college or the military in that age group. It is hard to attend your local meeting when college is 500 miles away. Give them the contact info for the local unit and give the local unit thier contact info. Keep them active while they are away. Keep them on the mailing list, in touch through social media, give them a reason to attend when they are home. (Holiday Party or class to give or ...) This can also work if they start a new life after college.

Slowly give them recognition for the the things they did in the cadet program. They get to skip Level 1, the get a rating in a speicalty track, they may get to skip other PD. They get to carry over some ribbons, they get to do some things (like drive the van) they could not do as a cadet, they get to carry over some ES quals... If they get stroked every month to six weeks there is a reason to come to meetings. Even if they are comming just to do the paperwork that meeting they are developing the habbit of comming, acting like a senior and making friends. Pavlov was right.

Many cadets have no idea what the seniors do and assume it is nothing or boaring. (Ok some times it is). Sometimes they see seniors a people who don't know what they are taliking about. Sometimes that is true and sometimes that is the cadets limited point of view. So there is no reason to "come to the dark side."  Start their transition about 6 months before they have to turn senior. Give them a project (they have always wanted to do or nobody has done before), task, duty that is usualy done by a senior but not the complete authority. They can't sign this or authorize that. The task should end after they have turned senior. It acts as a bridge. Have them assist a senior on a project/department other than a cadet thing. it broadens thier perspective, helps them make friends with a senior, changes thier focus, they peek behind the vail an see what seniors do, that things that make the cadet program don't magicaly happen and that if they want to continue to help the cadet(s) program they have a role and can make a difference,  but they need to be a senior to do it.  Then they have a reason to choose to come over to the senior side.

Have them mentor a new senior member. You can even start this with a 19 or 20 year old cadet officer. But put limits on them, "after all they are still a cadet and have to show respect for seniors".  Then when they turn senior the restrictions can be removed. That way turning senior is a step they took in order to accomplish a task. This also works if they just turned senior. You have replaced the cadets/flight with the new member. They are still in a leadership position.

I often see Cadet Commanders that become the Deputy for Cadets and that seldom works out. They never stop being cadet commander (and acting like it.) A break from being in authority in the cadet program helps a lot. They can be the AEO (for example) and still do classes or activites with the cadets but not in charge.

If you have a nearby unit (Which is easier in Nat Cap than WV) a change in unit helps. Everybody just sees them as a new senior member with experence and units are always glad for the help.


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« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2012, 06:27:14 PM »

While I don't see a lot of members who cross over, there seems to be a substantial number who return later in life...

+1 great reply.

At 21 most people have other, time consuming things to do. The Composite Squadrons I have been in has had very active Cadet Programs and the Senior side is really slow in comparison. All that 'gung ho' stuff you got in weekly doses is going to end at 21.
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a2capt
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« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2012, 06:48:30 PM »

Yes, I do see quite a few that return later in life, sometimes after kids are age-ready for the program, others due to retirement, but all the same. I've had the privilege of working with some all these years, in my unit. People who will put up with an amazing amount of flak from above who keep pounding along, to give every cadet a chance to be discover themselves and be something. .. and whether they know it or not, a few other senior members along the way, too. :)
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umpirecali
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« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2012, 03:41:05 AM »

+1 to has been.

You made a few suggestions about transitioning cadet into senior that i will ask my command about later in the year.  Fortunately our former DCC was as the squadron commander for 3 yrs and is a Lt Col who was a cadet many moons ago, so I think he'll have a great prospective for what works and what might be worth trying.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2012, 04:11:53 AM »

+1 to has been.

You made a few suggestions about transitioning cadet into senior that i will ask my command about later in the year.  Fortunately our former DCC was as the squadron commander for 3 yrs and is a Lt Col who was a cadet many moons ago, so I think he'll have a great prospective for what works and what might be worth trying.

For me, now in perspective 5 months after rejoining fully active status, I never really 'left'. I was gone for college, but paid my dues, and kept in touch with the unit. The last two summers I arranged to drive down from the city to the unit with members who also lived in the city. While it was a pain (for them) to do that, they were helpful, and it was nice to visit. As soon as I finished college and moved back to the suburbs, I simply came back, full time. I think I missed one or two meetings so far, but overall I am glad to be back, and certainly am still adjusting (but also enjoying) working with cadets indirectly, and seeing the cadets at all levels do what I did. It brings back warm memories for me, and amazes me at the same time how much they can grow on their own in such a short time. I don't know all of them yet, but I already can tell those who shine and those who have potential. It will be great to see where all of these cadets go from here.
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a2capt
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« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2012, 10:48:14 AM »

We've had a few go off the school, though they've not kept the membership current, they've maintained communications with the unit and make appearances during visits home from school, filling in on their progress, relating to their experiences at CAP over the years and how it got them to where they were now.

They generally get a lot of interaction between the cadets which is fun to see. One year we had three go off to service academies, and just this last weekend at our color guard competition a prior Spaatz cadet, Westpoint graduate that I've seen in photos while sorting stuff for our website archive, came back with the intention of participating in Cadet Programs. He got out of the Army early due to downsizing. 

Generally, I think the outcome is positive when prior cadets return, that have gone active duty or to the academy, in uniform and with a presentation worked out.

See, he/she was one of you right here and now look.  Statistically it seems that the majority of the ones that do come back are military over non-military. IE, someone who went to college somewhere else.. seems like you never hear from them again.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2012, 02:55:10 PM »

Quote
The cadets treat you as a senior and the seniors treat you like a cadet.

This is a big problem from what I have seen. I witnessed it again at CLC not too long ago. Although not all seniors act this way towards the new transfers, it does happen a lot.

Another thing I have noticed. Most 21 year old who want to join are welcomed with open arms. While a transfer, who has been training in leadership his whole cadet career is told to take a back seat.
Why is this? "They need the separation." is always the answer I see. If seniors are properly mentoring those higher cadets, they should start learning the senior side of things at least a year out. Along with having a heavy involvement with what goes on with the senior program, and how things run on the other side of the fence.

You teach these cadets leadership, and have them teach and mentor the cadets below them, but all of the sudden, the clock strikes midnight, and then they are told to stay away from them. But at the same time, you have the quote above. What is the new transfer supposed to do?

Just some interesting observations  from my side.  :)
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« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2012, 04:06:50 PM »

You teach these cadets leadership, and have them teach and mentor the cadets below them, but all of the sudden, the clock strikes midnight, and then they are told to stay away from them. But at the same time, you have the quote above. What is the new transfer supposed to do?

Take time to separate themselves from the cadet program as a participant in it, and learn to become a senior member.

This is the most difficult lesson to learn - senior members are not, in any way, the peers of cadets.   That is not generally an issue for
new  21 year olds who were never in the program, but is a very real challenge for dark-siders who may well be members of the same
social group as those who are still cadets.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2012, 04:18:29 PM »

You teach these cadets leadership, and have them teach and mentor the cadets below them, but all of the sudden, the clock strikes midnight, and then they are told to stay away from them. But at the same time, you have the quote above. What is the new transfer supposed to do?

Take time to separate themselves from the cadet program as a participant in it, and learn to become a senior member.

This is the most difficult lesson to learn - senior members are not, in any way, the peers of cadets.   That is not generally an issue for
new  21 year olds who were never in the program, but is a very real challenge for dark-siders who may well be members of the same
social group as those who are still cadets.

Again, if the mentoring and training are done like they are supposed to. They will already be studying the senior side of the program at least six months before the transfer.
A little trust and guidance can go a long way in this situation.

I've found that it's not the new transfer having a problem with it, but their peers. Seniors still see them as cadets, and cadets see them as seniors. Where are they to go?
Transfers need to make sure they have a good mentor in place to help with the process, and to stay away from the seniors who still see them as cadets.
The seniors who still see them as cadets give them more of a head ache then any amount of paper work, or reading through 39-1/CapTalk ever will.
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« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2012, 04:25:50 PM »

The flawed assumption is that someone under 21 is in any way a "peer" of an adult.  That's a harsh reality that people
in that age range don't like to hear, but it's simply a fact of life.

That doesn't mean they aren't valued members, sometimes the most technically informed and capable in the room on a given
subject, or that we should ignore their opinions out of hand, but experience is what makes adults, not a status change
on a membership card.  Believe me, I have reeled out plenty of "rope" in my time for older cadets and new dark-siders only
to realize it was too much, too soon. I've also seen several very serious situations where young people put in situations
where they weren't ready translated into consequences that were far-reaching outside the CAP multi-verse, thanks in part
to the actions of senior members who, themselves, never fully made the transition from cadet to senior.

This is really no different then when those with military experience insist that those without it simply "can't understand".
Until you've BTDT, you won't know what you don't know.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2012, 04:29:42 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Cool Mace
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« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2012, 04:31:49 PM »

So do you think that cadets turning senior should be a case by case situation when it comes to how "hand on" they can be?
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« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2012, 04:40:28 PM »

So do you think that cadets turning senior should be a case by case situation when it comes to how "hand on" they can be?

FWIW, no.  That's essentially how its handled today, ad hoc and in some areas with no recognition of the problem,  let
alone any remediation or attention to it - in some units the seniors are so happy just to have another name on the senior
roster they lose sight of the potential risks.

I'd prefer to have new converts barred from CP staff appointments and other major interaction with cadets for a calendar year -
have them spend the time becoming senior members and then, if they are still interested, they can be considered for
staff appointments and other participation with cadets.  For starters it would keep those whose progression has stalled
but still want to be "in charge" from taking that route - it might also help encourage cadets to stay in the program.

I'd also be in favor of discussions that simply ended the cadet program at 18 for anyone not in Phase 4, and set
senior membership at 21 period.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2012, 04:45:46 PM »

So do you think that cadets turning senior should be a case by case situation when it comes to how "hand on" they can be?

I'd also be in favor of discussions that simply ended the cadet program at 18 for anyone not in Phase 4, and set
senior membership at 21 period.

:TOPIC DRIFT:

I've talked with a few other members about this, or least, along those lines.

At 18, they would hold senior status and be treated as a senior. But they would hold their cadet rank to have a shot at the Spaatz award. Since 18 is legal age in the US, it becomes sort of a "limbo" for those cadets. CPPT applies to them, but then they are told to share bucks, and shower time with the rest of cadets.

It puts them in a weird position.
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« Reply #81 on: December 17, 2012, 04:51:23 PM »

Limbo members would make things worse.

Cadets are served by the program, seniors serve the program.  A hybrid of that would not be functional in any meaningful way
that makes a difference over today's rules.
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a2capt
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« Reply #82 on: December 17, 2012, 04:58:15 PM »

..and then there certainly is the argument that some people would be unfairly penalized because of that rule. Provision it so that there can be variances, or the individual in an assistant role somehow.

I've seen it way more often than not, that a prior cadet can't seem to separate themselves though the ability to do it seems to be better for those who reach Spaatz vs. the ones that didn't, timed out or turned early.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #83 on: December 17, 2012, 04:59:08 PM »

We were seeing it as a "best of both worlds" in a sense.

Since cadets over 18 have to be careful do to legal issues, and have to watch their back. This would eliminate all that. But they would still be able to achieve the Spaatz.
Again, just an idea that would/will never go anywhere.
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« Reply #84 on: December 17, 2012, 05:15:06 PM »

We were seeing it as a "best of both worlds" in a sense.

Since cadets over 18 have to be careful do to legal issues, and have to watch their back. This would eliminate all that. But they would still be able to achieve the Spaatz.
Again, just an idea that would/will never go anywhere.

What "legal issues" do cadets over 18 have to deal with?  Within the program they are not considered adults, anything else is external
and CAP has no control over it.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #85 on: December 17, 2012, 05:23:37 PM »

We were seeing it as a "best of both worlds" in a sense.

Since cadets over 18 have to be careful do to legal issues, and have to watch their back. This would eliminate all that. But they would still be able to achieve the Spaatz.
Again, just an idea that would/will never go anywhere.

What "legal issues" do cadets over 18 have to deal with?  Within the program they are not considered adults, anything else is external
and CAP has no control over it.

My point exactly. Those cadets aren't covered under CAP.

Say at encampment. Open bay showers, and they have staff shower time. A 19 year old cadet has to shower with a 14 year old staff member. If for some reason the 14 year old says 19 year old looked at him the wrong way, and there goes the 19 year old's life. CAP won't cover that cadet for anything, since they already had CPPT. When it comes to something like this. The reality of it is guilty until proven innocent.
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a2capt
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« Reply #86 on: December 17, 2012, 05:28:54 PM »

Since 18 is legal age in the US, it becomes sort of a "limbo" for those cadets. CPPT applies to them, but then they are told to share bunks, and shower time with the rest of cadets.

It puts them in a weird position.
I share bucks with cadets pretty often .. and I'm many years from having been near the age that could have been a cadet.

I suspect you meant .. bunks.

But yes, that is an interesting point. Though I'd have to bet that 18+ year olds sleeping adjacent to a 12 year old is pretty rare to hardly occurring in the program. By that age they're cadet staff, and of course there is the rare 18 year old basic at encampment. They're probably going to keep to themselves just to get it the heck over the week.  Though they are Cadet Members, and not Senior Members. There is a separation. Muddle it, and your going to have problems.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #87 on: December 17, 2012, 05:49:30 PM »

Cool Mace, That's a pretty big leap.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #88 on: December 17, 2012, 05:51:16 PM »

Cool Mace, That's a pretty big leap.

Yes and no.

The situation for this has happened before. Thankfully nothing like that accusation did happen though.
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« Reply #89 on: December 17, 2012, 08:02:09 PM »

IIRC at Spring Encampment we had 18+ year olds shower after underage cadets.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #90 on: December 17, 2012, 08:04:22 PM »

Time isn't always on your side at encampment, regrettably.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2012, 08:10:53 PM »

We managed this at a weekend encampment. I'm sure a week long summer event can find the time to group showers by age.
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Cool Mace
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« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2012, 08:14:56 PM »

We did are best, don't get me wrong.

But after the basics students lights out, there's only so much time for staff cadre to get through. Along with last minute tasks they have to take care of.
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Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2012, 08:34:20 PM »

We did are best, don't get me wrong.

But after the basics students lights out, there's only so much time for staff cadre to get through. Along with last minute tasks they have to take care of.

Why wait until cadet basic lights-out for the staff to do everything they need to get done?  That's why a flight has a flight commander and a flight sergeant and a TAC officer.  The flight sergeant can go shower and ready-up for the night while the flight commander helps supervise cadet basic free-time (or whatever late evening session you have scheduled after hygiene) and then switch off when the other cadet staff has showered.  It shouldn't take a cadet staff member more than 15 min to hygiene.  Both cadet staff could shower and hygiene in just 30-40 minutes, while the flight is doing evening-time stuff.  Heck, even the TAC could temporarily relieve both cadet staff if the flight was in some sort of "evening free time."
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a2capt
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« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2012, 08:46:08 PM »

A fringe benefit when with Encampment on Oahu, it's held in 4 man rooms, that's the facility that can be gotten, that's where it's held. This avoids a lot of the funny business with showers because they each have a one per four, or two if TACs, and other staff vary. But it's all separated that way.  Open bay sure helps the situation, but it's becoming a rarity.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2012, 09:03:19 PM »

A fringe benefit when with Encampment on Oahu...

...is that it's on Oahu!

Back to the drift, my experience, especially with CAP activities, has been that time management and good planning
are usually in inverse proportion to the actual amount of time available.

Anyone saying you can't accomplish in 7-10 full days what other activities can do in 5 needs to buy a watch, a calendar, and
a notebook.  Any activity that goes a full week has more "flight time" in one day then a weekend encampment gets in
the entire event, not to mention 1/2 the in/out processing overhead, plus most week+ activities have at least
one full day of prep time before cadets start showing up.
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2012, 05:56:48 PM »

I'd prefer to have new converts barred from CP staff appointments and other major interaction with cadets for a calendar year -
have them spend the time becoming senior members and then, if they are still interested, they can be considered for
staff appointments and other participation with cadets.  For starters it would keep those whose progression has stalled
but still want to be "in charge" from taking that route - it might also help encourage cadets to stay in the program.

You should write that up and send it up the chain.
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2012, 07:15:32 PM »

I'm an 18 year old Flight Officer that was a C/2dLT in the cadet program. I decided to go senior because I was in college at the time and am now waiting to ship out to Marine Corps basic training. I love the cadet program and still devote a decent amount of time to its needs. I feel as a SM I can more effectively get things done, I have the credibility of my years of experience in CP and the age needed to be reliable.  YMMV   
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Why are Cadet Crossover Members so Rare?
 


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