Should CAP Even Consider Encouraging Healthy Habits for Seniors?

[Eclipse]

Why does everyone knock the administrative tasks?

People don't join an organization like CAP to balance a checkbook, shuffle personnel files, or sit through endless, meaningless inspections, yet many get saddled with these jobs by being promised the fun stuff down the line - they never get there and quit.

[SarDragon]

Well, if all the folks who don't want to do this administrivia don't take turns doing it, who will? Somebody's got to do it.

[Eclipse]

Well, if all the folks who don't want to do this administrivia don't take turns doing it, who will? Somebody's got to do it.

100% agree, but the idea is we all hold up a corner and the pay-back is doing something fun on occasion.

People who are recruited to fly, or pound the ground, or whatever, don't usually mind taking a staff job to help
keep the wheels turning, but how long would they stay in if they were told that they could no longer get into
a plane or hike in the woods just because of an arbitrary number someone decided was important
(based, as we know, on nothing but conjecture).

We should all "take it for the team", but there's a limit to people's free time, and I know I wouldn't be in uniform
very long if all I was allowed to do was sit for SUI's and shuffle personnel folders.  I've reached a point where I
can make a contribution and have fun in the ICP, but you can't get there without first being a field hand,
so that whole lane would be locked out for those members - just about anything besides MSA, FASC, or LSC
requires, with good reason, field experience.

[johnnyb47]

Hi.
My name is John.
And I'm chubby.



Reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion that if the right person from my squadron came to me and said, "You've been here a while now and you do a great job.... I'd really like to see you take that next step and become qualified to wear the AF style uniforms. Here's a pamphlet CAP has been working on, would you like to give it a look? You're doing great and I wouldn't change a thing... but I'd like to see you have the option to wear something you've earned in every other way but one. If you decide to give it a shot just let me know if there is any way I can help or support you. If not, no worries. You're already a great asset in my book."
I think I would take to it pretty well.

I'm not forced. It's not an issue. I'm not being judged.
I'm simply being offered the chance to try another CAP program that will earn me the privlidge to go out and buy more CAP stuff that I can wear.
I know I'm overweight. Someone pointing it out to me isn't going to come as a shock.

For the record I keep going over and under the line.
I have a stomach condition that makes me look pregnant some days too. Ulcerative Collitis. (it also makes me fun at parties after a couple sodas and some bean dip)
It's not an excuse... i can still lose the weight. I just choose NOT to wear the Blues uniform when i look like Stay-Puff even if I am under the H/W limit.

SO... someone hand me the dang pamphlet already. I'd like to try another program to see if I can get/stay far enough below the line to be able to wear any uniform I want.

[bflynn]

I'd really like to see you take that next step and become qualified to wear the AF style uniforms.

Why is wearing the AF uniform the "next step"?

You believe wearing an AF uniform somehow makes one a better volunteer than someone wearing a CAP uniform?

[a2capt]

It might be from his point of view. It's not from yours? Oh darn. Doesn't make it wrong.

[Critical AOA]

I would think that losing weight for the health benefits and personal appearance would be enough.  I doubt if being able to wear a certain clothing item a few times a month as being that much of an extra motivation.

[johnnyb47]

I'd really like to see you take that next step and become qualified to wear the AF style uniforms.

Why is wearing the AF uniform the "next step"?

You believe wearing an AF uniform somehow makes one a better volunteer than someone wearing a CAP uniform?

Negative.
I do, however believe that being forced to wear the CAP uniform and having the choice to wear the CAP uniform are two entirely different things.
How many of us would switch to the AF uniforms tomorrow if we somehow managed to drop the H/W requirements?

Have you considered the fact that those of us in cadet squadrons might actually be more effective volunteers if we could wear the AF uniform? I'd never have to tell a cadet how to wear their uniform again. Once I have it right all they have to do is look at me. I'd never have to tell a cadet how to do a push-up again either if I could do them without feeling self-conscious (ever passed gas durring PT? ).
Or maybe my post had something to do with the fact that those in my squadron KNOW I would prefer to be in the AF uniform. I would imagine any squadron-mates who would approach a chubby person with this type of program would likely tailor the conversation for that individual.
From now on I promise to put a disclaimer at the end of my posts like they do in weight loss pill commercials.

(YMMV, not approved by the FDA, not legal in California, may cause anal leakage, not to be confused with other posts by this member, not available in all 50 states and claims made here have not been evaluated by bflynn for political-correctness/fact/smell/etc)
Nah.... I'm jus' kiddin. You alright.

[bflynn]

I'd really like to see you take that next step and become qualified to wear the AF style uniforms.

Why is wearing the AF uniform the "next step"?

You believe wearing an AF uniform somehow makes one a better volunteer than someone wearing a CAP uniform?

Negative.

I do, however believe that being forced to wear the CAP uniform and having the choice to wear the CAP uniform are two entirely different things.
How many of us would switch to the AF uniforms tomorrow if we somehow managed to drop the H/W requirements?

Have you considered the fact that those of us in cadet squadrons might actually be more effective volunteers if we could wear the AF uniform? I'd never have to tell a cadet how to wear their uniform again.

Let me phrase the question differently -

Why do you value someone else's uniform over our uniform?  You're in CAP, perhaps loyalty says that wearing the CAP uniform is the first choice, not the fallback plan.

[johnnyb47]

I'd really like to see you take that next step and become qualified to wear the AF style uniforms.

Why is wearing the AF uniform the "next step"?

You believe wearing an AF uniform somehow makes one a better volunteer than someone wearing a CAP uniform?

Negative.

I do, however believe that being forced to wear the CAP uniform and having the choice to wear the CAP uniform are two entirely different things.
How many of us would switch to the AF uniforms tomorrow if we somehow managed to drop the H/W requirements?

Have you considered the fact that those of us in cadet squadrons might actually be more effective volunteers if we could wear the AF uniform? I'd never have to tell a cadet how to wear their uniform again.

Let me phrase the question differently -

Why do you value someone else's uniform over our uniform?  You're in CAP, perhaps loyalty says that wearing the CAP uniform is the first choice, not the fallback plan.

Any uniform that can't be worn by all isn't the first choice.
Unfortunately we don't have one of those either.
SO... the uniform that can be worn by the most becomes the first choice.
One could argue that but for a very select few all members have the option of wearing the AF uniforms. They simply make the choice NOT to conform to regulation/requirements.
By design the CAP uniforms are the fallback plan.

[bflynn]

By design the CAP uniforms are the fallback plan.

And I think finally we arrive at the root cause of the whole issue...

[johnnyb47]

By design the CAP uniforms are the fallback plan.

And I think finally we arrive at the root cause of the whole issue...

What whole issue? One members post about how I would like to be approached if there was a "healthy senior members" initiative?
I dont have an issue. Perhaps you have a complex over your choice to wear the CAP uniform and feel the need to derail a whole thread over my one comment.

[Eclipse]

By design the CAP uniforms are the fallback plan.

100% agree.

The corporate variants were / are a necessary evil because members who can't wear the USAF-Styles have to wear "something".

[bflynn]

What whole issue? One members post about how I would like to be approached if there was a "healthy senior members" initiative?
I dont have an issue. Perhaps you have a complex over your choice to wear the CAP uniform and feel the need to derail a whole thread over my one comment.

I didn't say that you had an issue - you were merely the last one I quoted.  This thread exists because of AN issue.

Nor did I derail a thread, I think I may have posted 3 or 4 times over the course of 6 pages.  If I can derail an entire thread with less than one post per page, then you afford me far more power than I afford myself.

I did get an answer for me out of all of this.  The AF uniform is venerated over the CAP uniform.  Therefore, there is an inherient belief that it is better to be fit and to wear the AF uniform rather than one that is specific to CAP.  That is source of the issue - the belief that less weight = better because less weight = wear the AF uniform.  The concept of less weight is expressed in exactly one place in CAP regulations and therefore has exactly one outcome for the organization.

That is the source...

Perhaps some of this was obviously apparent to others, but it's a bit of a revelation to me.  I'm just surprised at the apparent lack of pride in the organization that our own uniform is denegrated over another organization's uniform.

[Fubar]

Perhaps some of this was obviously apparent to others, but it's a bit of a revelation to me.  I'm just surprised at the apparent lack of pride in the organization that our own uniform is denegrated over another organization's uniform.

My guess is that second-place status of corporate uniforms comes down to two factors. We silly humans tend to get excited about things that are exclusive versus inclusive. If there is something that not everybody can have, then there is often tension between the haves and the have-nots.

Second, for some folks (I have no idea on the percentages), the USAF-style uniform is a primary motivation for membership in CAP. A number of people on this board have stated that if the AF-style uniforms go away, so will they. For them obviously, it's the USAF-style or nothing, they wouldn't even consider a corporate uniform because as you've discovered, for them it's a "lesser" uniform.

People are certainly allowed to have their preference and opinions, where it becomes unfortunate is when people start forming negative opinions about people purely based on which uniform they are wearing. And don't get me wrong, this definitely goes both ways.

[BigShu]

Why does everyone knock the administrative tasks?

People don't join an organization like CAP to balance a checkbook, shuffle personnel files, or sit through endless, meaningless inspections, yet many get saddled with these jobs by being promised the fun stuff down the line - they never get there and quit.

That's your opinion. There might very well be a lot of people who join to be a part of this exciting organization and search for lost people and help during national disasters. They just don't like flying or hiking, or getting out of bed in the middle of the night to respond to a call. Shuffling personel files might be just their cup 'o tea. They still get to wear a uniform, with badges and ribbons. And, they still make a difference, because the mundane back office functions do have to be done. Yeah, I'm dreaming, but I suspect there comes a day when the most committed SAR geek gets tired of the physical challenge, or flunks a flight physical, and then the only way they can contribute is to balance a checkbook. They still get to hang out with the gang, on their own terms.

[Eclipse]

That's your opinion.

Yep, based on 13+ years of trying to retain members.

here might very well be a lot of people who join to be a part of this exciting organization and search for lost people and help during national disasters. They just don't like flying or hiking, or getting out of bed in the middle of the night to respond to a call. Shuffling personel files might be just their cup 'o tea. They still get to wear a uniform, with badges and ribbons. And, they still make a difference, because the mundane back office functions do have to be done. Yeah, I'm dreaming, but I suspect there comes a day when the most committed SAR geek gets tired of the physical challenge, or flunks a flight physical, and then the only way they can contribute is to balance a checkbook. They still get to hang out with the gang, on their own terms.

There might be a lot of things, we can't afford the risk, especially when there's been no evidence that there's a need.  There's a Venti on the counter
that says a weight standard that grounded pilots forces a 30% attrition rate within that category the first year, with another 15% the following.
We have a lot of pilots who are interested in nothing but flying, take that away, and they are gone.

You also somewhat missed the point -  you can't mix the "BTDT"s with the "never dids" - people who have had their fill of field operations
and age out of their web gear are usually anxious to become REMFS and help the new guys.

People who have never had the chance rarely are interested in doing more office work in their free time - this is one of the reasons
our 1st-year attrition rate is so high - people join based on the brochures and then find they have joined a unit that doesn't do anything
but talk about the "good old days".  Further, within our existing curriculum, you can't move into any of the major ICP positions unless
you've had field experience first, so at a minimum we'd have to change the brochures to "Join CAP and get the skinny dudes coffee..."

[BigShu]

Well, if all the folks who don't want to do this administrivia don't take turns doing it, who will? Somebody's got to do it.

100% agree, but the idea is we all hold up a corner and the pay-back is doing something fun on occasion.

People who are recruited to fly, or pound the ground, or whatever, don't usually mind taking a staff job to help
keep the wheels turning, but how long would they stay in if they were told that they could no longer get into
a plane or hike in the woods just because of an arbitrary number someone decided was important
(based, as we know, on nothing but conjecture).

You don't believe its an arbitrary number. The CAP H/W is based on the AF H/W chart. There's no way it's arbitrary. Even if you don't buy the rationale, you know millions were spent coming up with that chart. As to being nothing but conjecture, while experts might disagree on the absolute number, they do agree that weight above that number leads to health problems. Some sooner, some later. But the chain of causation is very well documented, in dozens of studies done over decades. Making the number doesn't guarantee ability or skill, but it increases the odds of success.

[Eclipse]

Millions were spent adding +10% to the existing USAF chart?  A chart that is in excess of 20 years old?

The USAF has not maintained the same program during that time, but ours remained static.   They also moved to "fat-boy" programs
and BMI tests, and only recently went back to standards which are so tight that 80% of CAP members could never get near them,
and a fair number of active and reservists struggle to maintain.

Making the number doesn't guarantee ability or skill, but it increases the odds of success.

Making the number, in a CAP context, means nothing but making the number, because for starters, the chart isn't based on actual CAP ops, it isn't even our chart.

[BigShu]

That's your opinion.

Yep, based on 13+ years of trying to retain members.

There might be a lot of things, we can't afford the risk, especially when there's been no evidence that there's a need.  There's a Venti on the counter
that says a weight standard that grounded pilots forces a 30% attrition rate within that category the first year, with another 15% the following.
We have a lot of pilots who are interested in nothing but flying, take that away, and they are gone....

People who have never had the chance rarely are interested in doing more office work in their free time - this is one of the reasons
our 1st-year attrition rate is so high - people join based on the brochures and then find they have joined a unit that doesn't do anything
but talk about the "good old days".  Further, within our existing curriculum, you can't move into any of the major ICP positions unless
you've had field experience first, so at a minimum we'd have to change the brochures to "Join CAP and get the skinny dudes coffee..."

Those attrition figures sound arbitrary.....like a conjecture! Even if we take them at face value, won't most of those guys be the dead weight you mentioned earlier? If most of the wings only get between 25 and 50% member participation, maybe the overweight pilots who leave weren't doing much anyway. If they were the hot shot multi-hat wearing gung ho members, well, we were looking for pilots when they joined too. There will always be pilots who join for the flying. If the expectation was clear that we need pilots who won't have a cardiac episode in the plane, so much the better. All the overweight pilots out there, they're dreading the flight physical after they get those blood pressure meds, because a special issuance medical isn't a slam dunk. And it gets dicier each time. To me, if we want to solidify the pilot supply, we need to be at least raising the question.