What uniform do most seniors wear at your squadron meetings?

[Devil Doc]

I think "all" should be authorized to wear the BDU's. Get rid of BBDU's. One color Flight Suit. Problem solved.

[SarDragon]

I think "all" should be authorized to wear the BDU's. Get rid of BBDU's. One color Flight Suit. Problem solved.

As has been pointed out numerous times, that is not CAP's choice to make. That's an Air Force decision.

[Devil Doc]

Sorry, wasnt trying to bring the Horse Back Alive. My question is, how is it AF decision on BDU's if they do not issue them anymore, nor is it an uniform of the Armed Servives. Who can tell you you cannot wear BDU's when they are not official anymore. On the other hand, if the AF is the reason we wear the "Nametapes" then I fully understand.

[SarDragon]

Sorry, wasnt trying to bring the Horse Back Alive. My question is, how is it AF decision on BDU's if they do not issue them anymore, nor is it an uniform of the Armed Servives. Who can tell you you cannot wear BDU's when they are not official anymore. On the other hand, if the AF is the reason we wear the "Nametapes" then I fully understand.

We were never issued BDUs. They have always been a purchase item. There have been some available as direct surplus from the AF, but that has never been a primary source. They seem to be readily available from the companies who make them, and I'm willing to guess that there are more civilians buying them for hunting gear than there are CAP members getting for uniforms. Yes, the cheap supply has dried up, but they are still available.

The AF makes the rules, and the current one says that we wear BDUs. End of discussion, as far as they are concerned.

[Garibaldi]

Sorry, wasnt trying to bring the Horse Back Alive. My question is, how is it AF decision on BDU's if they do not issue them anymore, nor is it an uniform of the Armed Servives. Who can tell you you cannot wear BDU's when they are not official anymore. On the other hand, if the AF is the reason we wear the "Nametapes" then I fully understand.

We were never issued BDUs. They have always been a purchase item. There have been some available as direct surplus from the AF, but that has never been a primary source. They seem to be readily available from the companies who make them, and I'm willing to guess that there are more civilians buying them for hunting gear than there are CAP members getting for uniforms. Yes, the cheap supply has dried up, but they are still available.

The AF makes the rules, and the current one says that we wear BDUs. End of discussion, as far as they are concerned.

Well...not ENTIRELY true. We have had access to surplus BDUs from DRMO for years, but as you said, that has dried up. Our supply closet has quite a few sets available for issue, but a lot of those have come from former members who have no need for them anymore. In fact, one of our new seniors told me he still had a few sets and boots from before the ACU became mandatory, so there's probably a few former AD that have some, or were able to go "dumpster diving" when they were tossed out.

The Air Force is the not-so-final authority on what our uniforms are, in conjunction with recommendations by the National Uniform Board and NHQ. When the BDU was authorized for wear for the military back in the 80s, it took nearly 10 years for us to get them. I am anticipating much the same length of wait for ABUs.

[Private Investigator]

The Air Force is the not-so-final authority on what our uniforms are, in conjunction with recommendations by the National Uniform Board and NHQ. When the BDU was authorized for wear for the military back in the 80s, it took nearly 10 years for us to get them. I am anticipating much the same length of wait for ABUs.

I think the phase in date for BDUs for CAP was 1994. Of course the military started bringing in BDUs in 1977-78. 

[SarDragon]

The Air Force is the not-so-final authority on what our uniforms are, in conjunction with recommendations by the National Uniform Board and NHQ. When the BDU was authorized for wear for the military back in the 80s, it took nearly 10 years for us to get them. I am anticipating much the same length of wait for ABUs.

I think the phase in date for BDUs for CAP was 1994. Of course the military started bringing in BDUs in 1977-78.

We were wearing BDUs at my OS squadron in '87. The fatigues were no longer available. NHQ said we could. I'm not sure when the phase-in date was, but I think it was before '94. The fatigues went away in '96, so the BDUs were authorized well before '94.

I still wore my fatigues from my last stint in CAP, and never bothered to get the BDUs, since I knew I was going to be growing my beard back when I left the unit, concurrent with my retirement from the Navy.

[Captain Morgan]

A handful of golf shirts.  An occasional BDU.  Mostly no uniform for regular meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

A handful of golf shirts.  An occasional BDU.  Mostly no uniform for regular meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron.

Why is it that virtually all senior squadrons I've encountered are that way?

My first CAP squadron was a composite squadron where everyone wore AF style.

Then I moved (due to getting married) and the only nearby squadron was a senior squadron.  They could have cared less about uniforms, not to mention I felt like useless baggage most of the time since I'm not a pilot.

I don't get it.

[Garibaldi]

A handful of golf shirts.  An occasional BDU.  Mostly no uniform for regular meetings.  We are a Senior Squadron.

Why is it that virtually all senior squadrons I've encountered are that way?

My first CAP squadron was a composite squadron where everyone wore AF style.

Then I moved (due to getting married) and the only nearby squadron was a senior squadron.  They could have cared less about uniforms, not to mention I felt like useless baggage most of the time since I'm not a pilot.

I don't get it.

I think I can help.

BDUs: $60 or so for a used set. Anywhere from $50-$120 for a pair of boots. $15 or so in patches. So worst case expenditure is $195 or so.

Polo: $30. Slacks: If you don't happen to have a pair hanging in your closet, $30 at Walmart. Shoes: again, if you don't happen to have a pair in your closet, $25 at Walmart. Total expenditure: $85 or so.

Then, you have to worry about grooming. Time it takes to throw on a polo shirt over the gray slacks you wore to work vs. time it takes to change completely into BDUs in the men's room. Do you REALLY do anything at a meeting that REQUIRES you to wear one over the other? Did you remember to shave this morning?

BDUs are time- and money-intensive. Polos are not. Most folks, I feel, are worried about these things, and balance the fact that it IS an easy to wear approved uniform combination over taking the time to make sure the BDUs are presentable, boots shined, etc. to wear it for 2 hours. Then, you have a few folks who spent their time on AD and "will not wear the AF style or any other military style uniform EVER again."

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Garibaldi, what I was getting at was not necessarily the monetary aspect, but why the dislike of wearing the AF-type uniform seems to be concentrated, though not exclusively, in senior squadrons.  That's what I have observed, at least, and I've been a member of composite (4, including my current one), senior (1, a very bad fit, but there was nothing else nearby) and cadet (1) squadrons, in two wings.

Granted, it was a lot easier (and cheaper) to get the AF uniform back before the change to the McPeak/Fogleman style.  I got the Tony Nelson jacket, pants and shirt for under $50 at an army-navy shop.  There wasn't the difference between "officer" and "enlisted" cut service dress there is now.  A squadron member who was in the AFRES got me a flight cap at the BX.  I think the only things I had to order from the then-CAP bookstore were collar brass, blue nameplate and cap device.

It was much the same for BDU's.  They were a lot more plentiful then.

For the record...I cut my hair and shaved my beard off, by choice, when I joined CAP.  And, yes, I did take my blues/BDU's with me to work and changed in the men's room after.  I don't want a medal or pat on the back for that; it was just the way I worked it.

As well, our Deputy Commander of Cadets almost exclusively wears the golf shirt/BBDU's.

My experience, and I know this is painting with too broad a brush, is that many (not all) of those who won't wear the AF style (but could), do it because they don't want to be bothered with C&C's, ranks, etc.

Of course, YMMV vastly and probably does.

As well, the attitude that "if you're not a pilot you're baggage" I encountered in my senior squadron did a lot more to sour me than their attitude toward uniforms.

[Critical AOA]

It is really pretty simple.

Senior squadrons are made up of a different type of person than you would normally find in a cadet only or even a composite squadron to some degree.  Most senior only squadrons are composed primarily of adults who either want to fly SAR or be involved in ES on some other level.  They are not trying to be Air Force. They will dress in a manner they find most comfortable to them or that fits their mission of choice while still obeying the rules.

The seniors in a cadet only squadron are there for the kids....oops... the cadets.   As such they might feel it is a bit incumbent on them to match the cadets out of a sense of a desire for uniformity and setting an example.   As the cadets are most likely aspiring to be in the Air Force or other military service, they want to look the part and act the part so the AF uniform and C&C fits them.  In other words, they are trying to be Air Force.

A composite squadron is made up of both types so you will see more of a mix of uniforms.  Of course if the seniors meetings are on a different schedule than the cadets, you will see the seniors looking more like a senior only squadron with the exception of the seniors working with cadets who will dress more like the seniors in cadet squadrons. 

All of this is perfectly understandable and there is nothing wrong with it.   It should only take a very short while in CAP and a basic understanding of both the various missions of CAP and its various uniforms to get it.

[Garibaldi]

Garibaldi, what I was getting at was not necessarily the monetary aspect, but why the dislike of wearing the AF-type uniform seems to be concentrated, though not exclusively, in senior squadrons. 

I realize that. What I was trying to get at was one of the many reasons many seniors feel compelled to do polo over any other uniform. Having been in a senior squadron, cadet squadron, and composite squadron or three, I can say that in my experience it's money and time vs. other aspects.

My senior squadron (really a flight; we had maybe 6 active members) never wore uniforms to our meetings, only on activities that we sponsored.

My cadet squadron, as a cadet, we really didn't have much of a choice, and neither did the seniors. OD fatigues or blues.

My composite squadrons, pretty much if you didn't deal directly with the cadets, polo shirts or grey/whites. I am the sole exception in my current unit because I feel more comfortable in uniform.

If asked, I'm sure that they would respond that the polo or grey/whites are more comfortable. Most of our active seniors don't meet H/W standards, and the few that do still choose the polo. Given that we have 6 or 7 active pilots and they all wear the polo, I'm gonna have to go with comfort vs. money. Backing off my original statement, which is still valid, I will say comfort is mainly the deciding factor, not a dislike of the AF uniform per se.

I've only come across a few seniors who are adamant about not wearing the AF style uniform, either blues or BDUs, in my travels in 3 different wings in 3 different regions. One stated quite firmly that he "spent 20 years wearing AF blue, and I am sick of it and won't wear it again."

As for the dislike factor, I guess it's like Vandenbroeck said. Dress for the mission at hand, whether it be a meeting or a mission. And I'm sure that's going to open an already open can of worms.

[Critical AOA]

Glad to help.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is really pretty simple.

David, if anything in CAP is "simple," please let me know.

Senior squadrons are made up of a different type of person than you would normally find in a cadet only or even a composite squadron to some degree.

There were some members in my senior squadron that were exactly that way - mission-orientated, and good at it, and duly recognised for it.  However, they too often focussed on ES to the exclusion of the other two mandated missions of CAP.

There were others who only wanted to fly on the Air Force's nickel.  They also would sign up their significant others so they could joyride in CAP aircraft - and these significant others took part in NO other activities of the squadron.  We had a roster full of mostly-female SMWOG's and 2nd Lieutenants who I never met in two years in the squadron.  They also saw no need for positions like Administration, etc., unless it dealt directly with the airplane and they disliked giving cadets O-rides.

I am an Observer, but was still considered "baggage."  They wanted another pilot in the right seat.

The seniors in a cadet only squadron are there for the kids....oops... the cadets.   As such they might feel it is a bit incumbent on them to match the cadets out of a sense of a desire for uniformity and setting an example.   As the cadets are most likely aspiring to be in the Air Force or other military service, they want to look the part and act the part so the AF uniform and C&C fits them.  In other words, they are trying to be Air Force.

We had seniors in the cadet squadron who didn't wear the AF uniform, even though some could.  The CC would only wear hers to a wing activity.

A composite squadron is made up of both types so you will see more of a mix of uniforms.  Of course if the seniors meetings are on a different schedule than the cadets, you will see the seniors looking more like a senior only squadron with the exception of the seniors working with cadets who will dress more like the seniors in cadet squadrons. 

My first squadron must have been quite unusual, then.  We wore AF-only.  I never saw anyone in an alternative uniform.

All of this is perfectly understandable and there is nothing wrong with it.   It should only take a very short while in CAP and a basic understanding of both the various missions of CAP and its various uniforms to get it.

I don't want to put across that there is anything "wrong" with it...except for the attitude from those who favour one group of uniforms that the others are somehow "lesser" members of CAP.  I don't believe that; never have.

But as for "a short while in CAP"...I've been in since 1993 with a couple of breaks in service and sometimes the attitudes still baffle me.

[RiverAux]

Uh, yes there is something wrong with people not wearing any uniform, even of the golf shirt variety, to CAP meetings. 

[Eclipse]

Uh, yes there is something wrong with people not wearing any uniform, even of the golf shirt variety, to CAP meetings.

+1

[Captain Morgan]

"Senior members may be required to wear a uniform during some activities - such as when flying in CAP aircraft. Senior members may wear the USAF style blue uniform or one of the distinctive CAP uniforms.  However, some members choose to serve quietly without wearing a uniform."
The above quote is from the CAP main web site.
I am very active IC and MP.  I am also the Wing's Government Relations Officer.  I have multiples of most of the AF and Corporate uniforms (no mess dress or blazer), which I wear often for missions, meetings with outside agencies, and exercises.  Our Squadron is a good mix of pilots and non-pilots (who we welcome with open arms.)  There is no good reason to require uniforms for our regular Squadron meetings.

[RiverAux]

There is no good reason to require uniforms for our regular Squadron meetings.

Other than the fact that it is required by 39-1 (Table 1-1) in which it says that members wear the CAP uniform, "when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1)?

Squadron meetings constitute both a "normal duty" as well as a "local function"

The web page is pretty obviously referring to those types of members that are prohibited from wearing CAP uniforms

[Captain Morgan]

We have accepted a cut in pay for a waiver ...