What uniform do most seniors wear at your squadron meetings?

[LGM30GMCC]

Previously, there was no requirement for uniforms to be worn. Those days are gone and any non-regulatory (Meaning CAPM or CAPR) guidance to the contrary is either incorrect, or misleading.

Patron members, AE Members, Sponsor Members and Legislative Members do not have to wear uniforms. They also really don't do anything directly in CAP.

39-1 is very clear. Except for 'organized recreational activities' uniforms are mandatory. I wish people would get over this and simply do it. It's not that hard.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We have accepted a cut in pay for a waiver ...

Thank a diety there aren't more of these SM squadrons around.

[bflynn]

39-1 is very clear. Except for 'organized recreational activities' uniforms are mandatory. I wish people would get over this and simply do it. It's not that hard.

I think you're mixing the how to wear the uniform with the when.  39-1 does not mandate when a uniform must be worn, just when it it appropriate to wear it.  There are a few situations where wear is required and 39-1 states "will wear" as the mandate in those circumstances.

By custom and tradition, uniforms are strongly encouraged, but not required at senior meetings.  There are many legitimate reasons, mostly resulting from real life, why somone would not be in uniform.  It's better to have their participation than their absence and to leave it to local commanders to handle someone who habitually attends out of uniform.

[Captain Morgan]

We have accepted a cut in pay for a waiver ...

Thank a diety there aren't more of these SM squadrons around.

The Squadron you wish wasn't around logged over 800 crew hours in CAP aircraft last fiscal year (impeccably dressed in CAP uniforms!), most of which were actual A missions.  We put around 400 hours on the planes, which justified two of the Wing's CAP aircraft. We have taken hundreds of damage assessment photos in recent years for ice storms and floods in declared disasters. We perform a substantial portion of the Wing's O-Rides. We have many qualified non-pilot crew members as well as enough qualified mission base personnel to put on our own SAREX. We raise enough funds on our own to provide Squadron funded training when National and Wing run short.

We have a good mix of adult members, many of which are entrepreneurs and professionals. Their time is precious, and we are thankful for any time they choose to donate to CAP. To suggest they change clothes in their car or a public restroom because they chose to squeeze a Squadron meeting into their busy schedule is absurd.

Every year on the evening before Legislative Day in Washington, there is an official briefing which involves CAP members all the way from Wing level up to and including the National Commander.  It is uniform optional, and many are in blue jeans.  It is one of the most important and most productive CAP functions I attend.  How can that be!!??  Maybe some of you should attend next year and admonish them citing 39-1!

I do understand the role of uniforms in Cadet and Composite Squadrons and in real and training missions, and do not intend any slight of that role.

[Eclipse]

Relevance?

Those members would fly those hours regardless of the charter, and thousands more were flown by members not in senior squadrons.
Unless the implication is that these seniors would leave if forced to meet in proximity to cadets.

We have a good mix of adult members, many of which are entrepreneurs and professionals. Their time is precious, and we are thankful for any time they choose to donate to CAP. To suggest they change clothes in their car or a public restroom because they chose to squeeze a Squadron meeting into their busy schedule is absurd.

Ah, ok. 

Then I guess everyone else's time is plentiful and of less value.

This "you're lucky I showed up at all" nonsense is a key limiting factor in CAP's growth and ability to plan effectively.

[Captain Morgan]

Relevance?

The relevance is that you can have an effective program without a strict uniform policy at Senior Squadron meetings.

Those members would fly those hours regardless of the charter, and thousands more were flown by members not in senior squadrons.
Unless the implication is that these seniors would leave if forced to meet in proximity to cadets.

Many of these members would not function well in a Cadet or Composite Squadron for various reasons so, no, these hours would not be flown in this case.  We should be glad that we have three unique types of Squadrons to appeal to a larger group of potential members.

Ah, ok. 

Then I guess everyone else's time is plentiful and of less value.

Frankly, yes (to varying degrees.)  That doesn't make them any better than anyone else, it just changes the way they manage their life.  An engineer, doctor, lawyer, computer programmer, may have a billing rate of $150, $250, or more per hour.  Depending on their situation, they maybe could skip that CAP meeting and make $500 for themselves or their company.  Many people in this category have alot to offer CAP, and I for one appreciate what they are giving up to be there.  If you respect their situation, rather than resent it, you will gain a valuable CAP member.

This "you're lucky I showed up at all" nonsense is a key limiting factor in CAP's growth and ability to plan effectively.

Our Squadron has had no problems with growth or effective planning, in fact just the opposite.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Right, but properly wearing the uniform would undo all of that. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It sounds like you're talking about the Auxiliary squadrons of the Royal Air Force before the Second World War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._601_Squadron_RAF

They were known as the "Millionaires" and were the sons of the hoi polloi of their day: nobility, bankers, Fleet Street financiers, etc. and "the rabble" need not apply, except as enlisted personnel to service the aircraft, Bentleys and Rolls-Royces.

Oh...these chaps didn't like wearing the regulation RAF blue uniform, either.

Unfortunately, the realities of war diluted their "exclusiveness."

The senior squadron I was in didn't like being around cadets, either, and made no secret of it, but why do you say that these individuals "would not function well" in a Cadet or Composite Squadron?

BTW, I am a former IT professional...and I don't consider my time any more/less "valuable" than any other CAP member.

It sounds like your squadron fosters an elitist attitude, which I find most distasteful.

[Eclipse]

Many of these members would not function well in a Cadet or Composite Squadron for various reasons so, no, these hours would not be flown in this case.

The inability to work and play well with others is generally considered a negative personality trait.  I guess that's different when you're "more important" then everyone else.

Frankly, yes (to varying degrees.)  That doesn't make them any better than anyone else, it just changes the way they manage their life.  An engineer, doctor, lawyer, computer programmer, may have a billing rate of $150, $250, or more per hour.  Depending on their situation, they maybe could skip that CAP meeting and make $500 for themselves or their company.  Many people in this category have alot to offer CAP, and I for one appreciate what they are giving up to be there.  If you respect their situation, rather than resent it, you will gain a valuable CAP member.

And many more people in this category somehow find the ability to work within the full mission of CAP with no issue, including
maintaining the organization that allows the menu-riders their place to play, and still finding 5 minutes to put on a uniform before a meeting.  The idea that any volunteers personal time is some how more valuable is an unacceptable, condescending attitude, which is again part of the overall problem in CAP - "Let someone else carry the corners, I'm important..."

[wuzafuzz]

Wow, that went sideways fast.

Here is an interesting site listing the value of volunteer time by state. 
http://www.independentsector.org/volunteer_time

I think we can safely say our CAP time is of equal value no matter what we do outside of CAP.  I appreciate my volunteers'  tight schedules whether they are a highly compensated professional or someone who works a couple of jobs to make ends meet.  To that end I encourage uniform wear to meetings but refuse to go all uniform-Nazi on them if they are unable.  There is no wiggle room for those activities that specifically require wear of the uniform. 

Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

[Eclipse]

Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

I wouldn't disagree, but that presupposes those are the only two options.

[Captain Morgan]

Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

[wuzafuzz]

Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

I wouldn't disagree, but that presupposes those are the only two options.

There are plenty of options, but all too often I've seen haste result in improper uniform wear.  I'd rather see street clothes than make someone miss a safety presentation because they forgot part of their uniform. 

Of course there are countless would've, should've, could've scenarios.  I'm not advocating laissez faire leadership, just minimal discretion.

[wuzafuzz]

Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

Do you avoid "a strict uniform policy" or do you have a "we don't wear uniforms to the meetings" policy? 

[Devil Doc]

I thought when you do airforce missons you have to be in uniform anyway?And I would suggest not  knocking Down the cadets so bad because there are more cadets better qualified than a lot of senior members.

[Captain Morgan]

Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

Do you avoid "a strict uniform policy" or do you have a "we don't wear uniforms to the meetings" policy?

I would say the former.  We don't make a big deal of it either way.  We certainly do not discourage anyone from wearing uniforms to our meetings.  Some meetings we may have a third in uniform, other times just a few people.  No one would feel out of place either way.
We are not anti-uniform.  Wearing them correctly during missions, exercises, meetings with outside agencies, o-rides, etc. is mandatory and not questioned.

[LGM30GMCC]

Here's my view of this issue in a Guidance and Clarification Format:

The usual question or view (including those expressed by a few members here): CAPP 50-1 Page 60 states "Although most members elect to wear a CAP uniform, the uniform is not mandatory unless conducting the cadet program or when flying in corporate aircraft.  However, members who choose to wear a uniform must wear it properly." Knowledgebase answer 535 states "Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used CAP flight activity), but not necessarily the AF style service uniform" We believe these mean there is no requirement for members to wear uniforms for day-to-day activities.

My answer: Non-concur. CAPM 39-1 Para 1-2. sates "[Commanders] will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of
this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform. The wing commander, or the commander to whom such authority is delegated by the wing commander, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. (The region commander will prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.)"

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1 Line 6 states the uniform is "Mandatory when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1). Note 1 states "The National Commander and other commanders may specify the wear of a particular uniform type for the purpose of achieving a uniform appearance at squadron, group, wing, region, and national functions. However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements."

CAPM 39-1 Paragraph 1-5 states "Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis...It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform."

CAPM 39-1 Para 1-5 a. states "Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue belt/silver
buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem."

CAPM 39-1 Para 1-5 b. states "CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray trousers;
black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve. Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve."

Based on the above I believe some kind of uniform is required except for 'organized recreational activities' for which a wing commander may authorize non-uniform items as there is not necessarily an appropriate uniform combination.

Short short version: The G/W or AF Blues uniform is mandatory for all members to own. Some type of uniform is required for all activities except 'organized recreational activities.' Line 1 and 2 are the ones often cited from table 1-1 (Flying and CP activities) but line 6 makes it mandatory for ALL activities. Even your weekly meetings. Trying to counter this just isn't supported by the reg as written. CAPP 50-1 and the website (sometimes cited) and even KB are not directive in nature. CAPM 39-1 is.

[A.Member]

Notwithstanding the Royal Air Force, elite millionnaires, and scrutiny from people who have enough time on their hands to make over 16,000 posts on Cap Talk, we don't wear uniforms to the meetings because it's just not that important in our situation.  We are very effective without it.  If dressing alike at meetings has caused your Squadron to excel and improved your effectiveness, then carry on!  You won't get any resistance from me.

To change into a uniform takes 5 to 10 minutes max.  Your members are really that put out?  I call B.S.! 

Despite excuses to the contrary, uniform wear is required per 39-1.  It's not that hard, really.   

And while you might not think uniform wear is that important, National does.  Guess who's opinion on the matter actually counts?  (hint:  it's not yours)

[VNY]

Civilian clothing at a meeting is greatly preferable to improperly worn uniforms.

I've seen the polo shirt commonly worn with pretty much anything for pants because the member thought just changing shirts was better than nothing, and it very much is not.

[Captain Morgan]

Every year on the evening before Legislative Day in Washington, there is an official briefing which involves CAP members all the way from Wing level up to and including the National Commander.  It is uniform optional, and many are in blue jeans.  It is one of the most important and most productive CAP functions I attend.  How can that be!!??  Maybe some of you should attend next year and admonish them citing 39-1!

I hope you all show up in March to straighten us out!