How Many Ribbons?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

My big smell issue is burning trash. Ramadi smelled like burning trash, constanly. Every time I smell it, I kinda space out.

I gained about 25 from eating, but since walking, I have lost 20. And I feel much better... But I also picked smoking back up so I don't have all the appetite either, not any better is it?

[Devil Doc]

Not Really, I quit smoking cigarettes and Drinking all together, (well I smoke cigarettes every now and then). I had to quit drinking, the cocktail of meds I take do not mix well with ETOH. Burning tires, can never get that smell out of your nostrils, I was near the Syrian Border, Al Qaim Area.  We patroled north of the river, fun fun.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Ramadi, Capitol of the Suni province. South shore of the Euphrates. They burned trash constantly.

I was never much of a drinker... Thank God. It's hard to kick what has kept you sane for so long... Already what has kept you from going more insane than you already are. Lol

[Devil Doc]

So how do we "Band of Brothers" together, and change the NHQ regulations?

[Flying Pig]

Off topic......

Devil Doc

Thank you for your choice of career path. I see your NAM "V" and your PH which I interpret to mean youve put it on the line for somebody when it was hitting the fan.    When I was a squad leader in weapons platoon the Corpsman was in my squad.  We never wanted him to stand watch or do anything but just relax.  He always insisted that he never wanted to be treated any different.  Humped the 240 and the .50 cal right along with everyone else.  We taught him how to crew the guns, call for fire, etc etc.  We often commented that our Corpsman was the best Marine in the platoon    He chose to stay Navy reg vs Marine Reg.  I always thought it was cool having a platoon of Marines in our Alphas with the Corpsman in his cracker jacks in formation.  Sort of engrained the Marine/Navy relationship.......and it was a good visual for him to remember that we out numbered him 40-1

[Devil Doc]

Thank you, Flying Pig

I seldomly let people know what I have done, or that I was even in the service. The tue heros in my mind are the ones that never made it home, and I am thankfull that I did. As I said before I cannot wear my ribbons on my G/W, so I just wear my 2 CAP ribbons.

[LGM30GMCC]

On the topic of SDFs, do the active services actually get any say in what they wear? I know the NGs fall under title 10 and 39, and I suppose could have completely different uniforms for the different occasions. Do the SDFs ever fall under title 10 of the USC?

Do SDFs ever receive any kind of federal funding or oversight?

If the answer is no to both, then it's possible (likely) that the USAF either doesn't have a say, and doesn't give a crap, or has no say in the matter. They are the Federal Agency that administers a good chunk of our funding from Congress (it isn't from their budget, but they watch over it.) That's a very different relationship.

And as for the CG/CGAux...I love the CG, but they kinda do their own thing. They have forever lived in the realm 'Are we in the military?' To which the answer is a very clear 'Sorta, definitely yes except when no. But we still love ya...' So perhaps it's not the best comparison.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

On the topic of SDFs, do the active services actually get any say in what they wear? I know the NGs fall under title 10 and 39, and I suppose could have completely different uniforms for the different occasions. Do the SDFs ever fall under title 10 of the USC?

I don't believe they do.  Any connection they have to Federal military regulations would be through their respective state AG's.  I know that in the vast majority of cases, SDF's are not deployable outside the boundaries of their state, except at the request of another state's Governor.  Overseas, absolutely not.

Do SDFs ever receive any kind of federal funding or oversight?

I'm going to say that other than funds appropriated for each state's ArNG/ANG, no.

If the answer is no to both, then it's possible (likely) that the USAF either doesn't have a say, and doesn't give a crap, or has no say in the matter. They are the Federal Agency that administers a good chunk of our funding from Congress (it isn't from their budget, but they watch over it.) That's a very different relationship.

I can see why you would think that, but I still don't think it could/would be that way.  The USAF's uniform is theirs, if nothing else in a proprietary sense, and they could veto its use by the handful of SDF Air units.  They could, through the office of the Director, ANG, say "these SDF's don't wear the uniform unless they play ball by our rules."

I remember back in the '90s I saw an SDF Air 1st Lieutenant at an airshow, wearing blues with the waist-length jacket.  The only modifiers he was wearing was additional wording on his (blue) nameplate and a state badge on the left side of his flight cap (which still had hard rank).  His jacket was hanging open, unzipped, and he quite likely would not have met CAP standards to wear the AF uniform.  So I would think that the Air Force would care about how their uniform is being worn if nothing else.

And as for the CG/CGAux...I love the CG, but they kinda do their own thing. They have forever lived in the realm 'Are we in the military?' To which the answer is a very clear 'Sorta, definitely yes except when no. But we still love ya...' So perhaps it's not the best comparison.

They are still at all times an armed force of the United States and subject to the UCMJ.

I was a CG Auxiliarist some years ago.  The CG prescribes very little limitations to the Aux uniform, other than their silver sleeve lace...and they treat their Auxiliary much differently (none of the AUXON/OFF B.S.).  Their members also can wear, to the best of my knowledge, any and all military awards earned and duly documented.

[Devil Doc]

I was a CG Auxiliarist some years ago.  The CG prescribes very little limitations to the Aux uniform, other than their silver sleeve lace...and they treat their Auxiliary much differently (none of the AUXON/OFF B.S.).  Their members also can wear, to the best of my knowledge, any and all military awards earned and duly documented.
[/quote]

Then why dosn't CAP do this if the CGAUX does?

Also, im assuming an SDF is an State Defense Force. Which my state does not have, but i can tell you, that our state is using us for DHS and DR missions, so i guess we are as close as you can get for an SDF.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

So how do we "Band of Brothers" together, and change the NHQ regulations?

Best guess, petition. Get a form up online, here would probably be the best bet, and get people who want all to be able to wear all their awards to list their name and CAPID. Once we reach a thousand or two names, send it up the chain. Even if there isn't two thousand members on this site, word of mouth will get it rolling.

[Critical AOA]

Brandon (Devil Doc),   Sorry to hear of your physical issues as well as your battles with PTSD. I cannot even begin to understand your struggles.  Having served only 3 years and it all being peacetime, I left the Army fairly unscathed.  I imagine it is very difficult to maintain one's weight with those issues.
 
I am a little heavy for the H&W standards but am a heck of a lot closer to them than many members I see wearing the blues.  My hair is always pretty much within military limits within an inch or so and I rarely have facial hair anymore so the grooming is not an issue with me.
 
I could probably wear the blues with CAP awards plus my few Army ribbons and Air Assault badge if I chose to without any hassle. I just choose not to as it is my personal belief that military uniforms and decorations are for current military members though I see no harm with war vets wearing theirs on certain days which I believe they are allowed to do.   As a peacetime REMF, I do not feel that I am entitled to it.  I have too much respect for both the military services and the individuals who did actually make a real sacrifice.

Personally, if CAP would limit the wear of military decorations to those earned in combat by men such as you, I would be more accepting of it.  I just feel that those in my category of service who desire to plaster their chest with as much candy as possible need to get a grip.  We are no longer in the military & those awards have no relevance to CAP, so why wear them?  I will wear my CAP pilot wings on all my CAP uniforms but I see no need or justification to wear my Air Assault badge.  As I don't believe we rappel out of aircraft during our missions, it has no relevance.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

David, don't feel bad, or like your service means any less than any of us who Were deployed. You Were ready, if you Were given the order to deploy, you would have, just like we did. We Were of the same mindset, ready to do what must be done for those who depended upon us. You voluntarily put yourself in that place, ready to move when told. Thank you for that. Be proud of it.

[Garibaldi]

Brandon (Devil Doc),   Sorry to hear of your physical issues as well as your battles with PTSD. I cannot even begin to understand your struggles.  Having served only 3 years and it all being peacetime, I left the Army fairly unscathed.  I imagine it is very difficult to maintain one's weight with those issues.
 
I am a little heavy for the H&W standards but am a heck of a lot closer to them than many members I see wearing the blues.  My hair is always pretty much within military limits within an inch or so and I rarely have facial hair anymore so the grooming is not an issue with me.
 
I could probably wear the blues with CAP awards plus my few Army ribbons and Air Assault badge if I chose to without any hassle. I just choose not to as it is my personal belief that military uniforms and decorations are for current military members though I see no harm with war vets wearing theirs on certain days which I believe they are allowed to do.   As a peacetime REMF, I do not feel that I am entitled to it.  I have too much respect for both the military services and the individuals who did actually make a real sacrifice.

Personally, if CAP would limit the wear of military decorations to those earned in combat by men such as you, I would be more accepting of it.  I just feel that those in my category of service who desire to plaster their chest with as much candy as possible need to get a grip.  We are no longer in the military & those awards have no relevance to CAP, so why wear them?  I will wear my CAP pilot wings on all my CAP uniforms but I see no need or justification to wear my Air Assault badge.  As I don't believe we rappel out of aircraft during our missions, it has no relevance.

You earned it, wear it. Proudly. And I don't think the epithet REMF applies to you; you were training for front-line work, not something that would have kept you in the safety of a fire base or even a stateside post.

And FYI, I think most folks here would say the same thing regarding your service, like Manfred. Me, on the other hand, can claim zero service since I got out on an ELS 4 weeks into basic training. When people ask me, I tell them no, I did not serve. To me, it doesn't count, like quitting a job halfway through orientation.

[Devil Doc]

I cant agree more, just because you did not deploy, does not mean your service should not count. The call would have been answered if it came down to it and you would have been there just like us.

[ol'fido]

For Senior Members (joining today without prior cadet membership):
10 Decorations (Silver Medal of Valor to Unit Citation)
5 Professional Development Awards (level I - V)
2 Aerospace Education Awards (Yeager & Crossfield)
2 Service Awards (Red Service and Command Service)
14 Activity ribbons (this is counting the Disaster Relief Ribbon and Disaster Relief ribbon with V device separately, as they should be)
= 33 ribbons

Though the likelyhood of a SM receiving all those award in their CAP career is extremely rare, they must be a "Super Senior".

NO. DR w/V and DR are not two separate awards. If you already have a DR ribbon and do something to earn a "V" , you don't put on another DR ribbon with the device on it. You simply add the V to the one you got. This is just like the Bronze Star in the RM. You can earn a BS for service(usually in a combat setting/I believe this is usually awarded to enlisted and junior officers/Senior officers would get a Legion of Merit for the same thing.) You can also earn the BS for Valor(also usually in a combat situation) and wear the ribbon with the "V" device attached. You don't wear two separate ribbons because one is for Valor and one is for Service. Same would apply with its use for the DR ribbon.

One may argue that you can't really earn the plain old DR ribbon anymore because some of the courses don't exist. Well, there are a lot of DR missions out there that don't qualify for the V because they aren't declared a "presidential" disaster.  Regardless, this does not change the way these things work just because CAP can't or won't get someone to edit their regs and make them clear and consistent across the board.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Sir-

The regulation is pretty clear. There are different requirements for the DR w/o V and the DR w V. Just because you do not like the wording of the regulation or think there are holes in it, you should not "adjust" or reinterpret it.

Also, your logic that it is like the RM ribbon does not apply, that is a military award. Not CAP. The attachments for CAP ribbons like stars, clasps, and propellers are discussed in the para that governs such award. In contrast, the Disaster Relief ribbons are covered in two different paras, numbered differently, for the DR awards.

Para 21 (f) covers DR ribbon. Para 21 (g) covers DR with V device. Two different paras, two different awards. Tell me it is the same ribbon when both are covered in the same para with the same number it is renumbered as "21 (f) 1. DR ribbon for Red Cross classes and mission part... 21 (f) 2. V device for this ribbon..."

You cannot reinterpret CAP regulations like CAP commanders senior members like to do. Otherwise we are teaching cadets to disregard regulations if they do not like its wording. And at their age, this carries to real life. "I do not like to stop at a red light, therefore, I will zip through" is one of the results. I know, I know, it is an extreme example, but I hope you get my drift...

Flyer

[ol'fido]

While you may be awarded the ribbon with a "V" device for serving in a presidential disaster, the real award is the "V" device not the ribbon itself. I myself already have a DR ribbon. If I were to participate in a presidential disaster, I would not be awarded a DR ribbon with a "V" device. My commander would cut orders to award the "V" device. If you do not have the DR ribbon previously, you would be awarded the DR ribbon for participation but it is the device that denotes it as a "presidential" disaster. I am not reinterpreting anything.

[Luis R. Ramos]

That is not true.

I was awarded the DR for the Red Cross classes and missions. Then after Sept 11 I was also awarded the DR ribbon with V device. It does not say anything to "add the V device to the DR ribbon."

You have not answered my statement.

Two different paras, different criteria, makes it two different devices. Para 21 f and para 21 g.

This seems to be the prevalent view of the majority of members posting here as well as that of Ms Parker, of NHQ, in a 2008 CAP Knowledge Base message.

Flyer

[RADIOMAN015]

I think a few reminders might be in order.


Our AF colleagues control the wear of our AF style uniforms, and they take this responsibility seriously.  If and when we make requests to change our AF style uniforms, we staff the requests through our partners at CAP-USAF.  The AF has their own internal staff approval process on these requests, but generally has been very supportive of us in the past.

The AF does not believe it is allowable for us to wear military badges or ribbons on our corporate uniforms.  Some of you here clearly disagree with them, and have some good examples to support your position.  But the point remains that after consulting with their legal types, they believe it to be improper and that does not seem likely to change in the near future.  It may be that if we could get their legal types and ours to sit down together and go over the relevant statutes and DoD regulations / policies that progress could be made, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I would think that the AF (as well as other military services) policy on the wear of military earned ribbons (versus medals which can be worn on civilian attire on certain occasions) on civilian attire is basically to protect the AF from wear getting out of control; but also affects other, what I would term "patriot" wear uniforms such as VFW & American Legion Uniforms, that cannot wear ribbons or occupational devices.

The Air Force style uniform worn by CAP members is a Civil Air Patrol Uniform, and I would think that we would want a consistent presentation on ALL our CAP uniforms.  It's not clear to me why members would be allowed to wear any armed forces occupational designations insignia  (e.g. pilot, navigator, security police, information management, nurse, doctor, etc.) on their CAP AF type uniforms, since it likely has no bearing on their current CAP duties.  In my opinion, they should be wearing ONLY the appropriate CIVIL AIR PATROL occupational badge/insignia.  IMHO this avoids confusion to the already confused public on the CAP military uniform wear.

Regarding the wear of military earned ribbons, this is more of a Department of Defense wide consideration of a standard policy to allow "authorized" groups wearing "appropriate" patriotic organizational uniforms to wear earned ribbons (as opposed to medals) since individual military services regulations vary.     

Since this involves other patriotic groups organizational uniform wear, it is more than just a CAP issue.  Perhaps after the national election, some congressional interest might be in order to address at the DOD level.
RM             

[68w20]

  It's not clear to me why members would be allowed to wear any armed forces occupational designations insignia  (e.g. pilot, navigator, security police, information management, nurse, doctor, etc.) on their CAP AF type uniforms, since it likely has no bearing on their current CAP duties.

Because we worked hard to earn them and have a great deal of pride in our accomplishments?