TIG Problem

[RogueLeader]

I joined up in october of 04, got my level one done in Decemeber of 04, but got promoted to 2 Lt in jun of 06.  I just got my tech rating, is there any reasonable way of waiving that, or just wait until June arrives?  I checked 35-1, and didn't see anything.  Just curious.

[davedove]

There may be ways to wave time in grade for exceptional circumstances, but I don't see any such circumstances from what you've described.  You will have to wait until June 07 to fulfill the time in grade requirements and be eligible for promotion to First Lieutenant.

Note that I said eligible.  There is no guarantee that you will be promoted; it's all up to your squadron commander.  If I were you, I would have the paperwork ready to go on the day you are eligible and get it submitted then.  It never hurts to look out for yourself in CAP (just don't be a pest )

[MIKE]

The 12 months TIG is part of the requirements for the Duty Performance Promotion to 1st Lt.  If you finish the other requirements early you still have have to sit around for the TIG to be eligible for promotion.  See CAPR 35-5 Sec. B Fig. 2.

... or qualify for the grade under other criteria.

[arajca]

You can apply for a waiver, but at this level, there really isn't any reason for it. Besides, you only get one waiver for promotion in CAP. From talking with an experienced Personnel Officer (and former region CV) waivers typically take a long time. His experience with one was that waiting for the waiver took longer than waiting for TIG to be completed.

[DNall]

Waiver: Seen it take 3 years, or go up & never get any feedback.

Is that 18months you waited as a SM to make 2Lt? What's that all about? Anyway though, no you can't speed it up. Technically you can apply for a waiver for exceptional performance promotion, but there's no point.

I wouldn't worry about it. The dif between 2Lt & 1Lt is not much at all. I got screwed that way going to Capt back in the day, that was Dec 98 & I'm just now getting papers in for Major. There's other bigger things to worry about, trust me on this.

[davedove]

Very true, it's not worth worrying about.  After all, it's not like you're getting a pay raise or anything.

[RogueLeader]

I know, Thanks for the input though.

[MIKE]

Very true, it's not worth worrying about.  After all, it's not like you're getting a pay raise or anything.

O-1 = 0.00

O-2 = 0.000

[RogueLeader]

But 1st Lt looks soo much better on a resume 

[DNall]

Very true, it's not worth worrying about.  After all, it's not like you're getting a pay raise or anything.

O-1 = 0.00

O-2 = 0.000

You got the decimal point in the totally wrong place on that... it's:

O-1 = $0.00

O-2 = $00.00

[RogueLeader]

Very true, it's not worth worrying about.  After all, it's not like you're getting a pay raise or anything.

O-1 = 0.00

O-2 = 0.000

You got the decimal point in the totally wrong place on that... it's:

O-1 = $0.00

O-2 = $00.00

Would O-3 look like $000.00?

[DNall]

Exactly, now you got it. 

[RogueLeader]

Gee, the MG would look like $0000000.00.  Now if it were mine, I'd like to put a 9 at the front end.

[DNall]

Yeah I'm sure most of us could use an extra 90mil.

[RogueLeader]

Do you know of many jobs that pay like that  or know of any high rolling banks?

[DNall]

you know I haven't run across the 9mil job yet, or even the 900k job. I'll stick to my extra zeros & come & pay.

[Al Sayre]

Powerball Winner is as close as you can probably get, but I've applied several times and still haven't got a call...

[DNall]

  I've applied a few times myself when the pay gets to a range I'm willing to accept.

[Major_Chuck]

I'll share some personal experience here about waivers.

Several years ago the NB authorized members to apply for a one time TIG waiver.  I used it a couple of years ago to cut my TIG as a Captain in half. 

There are catches.  You have to provide a really, really, good justification about why your credentials, skills, and abilities warrant a waiver.  I wrote a six page justification why my civilian skills and experiences in the logistics field warranted my promotion to major. 

It had to pass muster past the Wing Promotion Board,  The Wing Commander, Region Promotion Board, Region Commander and finally the National Level Promotion Board.  Each level had to provide supporting endorsement.

It took about seven months to run the course.

I recommend it for those in the grade of Captain or Major.  When I submitted mine I had no desire to become a lieutenant colonel.  Things change however.  It also allowed me to become eligable to attend National Staff College.  Don't waste a waiver on trying to move up to 1st LT or Captain.

Chuck

[RogueLeader]

Here's another situation,  we have a new SM with her Commercial Licence, and should be gettinging her 1st Lt. in April.  She is confident of getting her CFI this summer- thus qualifing her for Captain.  Would that qualify for a speacilty promotion with out TIG as 1st Lt.?  or should she wait for 3-4 months as SM?  I realize that utlimately the decision to take 1st Lt or wait for Capt. is up to her, I just wanted to be able to advise her on that situation.

[lordmonar]

Once here Level one is completed....the unit commander can put in a 2a for her and promote her based on her qualificaitons.  So...once she gets here CFI she can apply for Capt...no TIG required.

[DNall]

IIRC you can submit a subsequent promotion request based on qualification. That's not waivers. In other words, make her a 1Lt now & then resubmit it again for Captain exactly like the first time. That happens with mil officers that get promoted too. That's a very different process. I don't believe you should have any trouble with that.

[Monty]

Once here Level one is completed....the unit commander can put in a 2a for her and promote her based on her qualificaitons.  So...once she gets here CFI she can apply for Capt...no TIG required.

.....or the 2A can be relegated to the 90s and in its stead, the personnel officer and/or commander can use the "membership" and subsequent "promotions" utilities in e-services and promote them that way, paperless*.  (Not only does it work like an insta-charm, we just passed our big inspection and we were told point blank that if the member is promoted in e-services, no 2A copies are needed.  We had been double-documenting with paper and e-services...the point of the module, as we were told by TPTB, was "to lighten the burden, not double the load.")

Good 'ole Harris is dead-on about applying for Capt w/o TIG under unique circumstances like CFI...but never forget that CFI isn't a mandate for a Capt promotion (not implying that's what he meant, just throwing a casual reminder out there for us all.)



* - watch out; your wing might let some, none, or all promotions happen the old way or the new.  As it stands, CAWG allows e-services promotions for company grade officers but refuses to accept e-services versions for field grade.  No comment from me on the practicality or mindset of this "half new, half old" method.

[DNall]

That's interesting. Way our case seems to work is you can submit the official request & approval process via eServices, but you have to email the 2a (or whatever) to provide documentation. That's more an issue for ES awards, but basically the process for most everything.

If I had to guess why they're doing the split version there, I'd say they're putting field grade to teh Wg promotion boards & just letting Company grade fly thru on CC discreression. That makes pretty good sense, but I can see where a policy letter explaining it would be helpful.

[Monty]

That's interesting. Way our case seems to work is you can submit the official request & approval process via eServices, but you have to email the 2a (or whatever) to provide documentation. That's more an issue for ES awards, but basically the process for most everything.

If I had to guess why they're doing the split version there, I'd say they're putting field grade to teh Wg promotion boards & just letting Company grade fly thru on CC discreression. That makes pretty good sense, but I can see where a policy letter explaining it would be helpful.

Yup!  Everybody's home is different...which is why I tried to avoid a tangent by saying:

No comment from me on the practicality or mindset of this "half new, half old" method.

[RogueLeader]

Thank you, I just didn't want her to think that she could get !st Lt soon and get Capt. not too soon afterward when she couldn't because of the 18 month TIG.  Thank you all.

[Major Carrales]

I have never seen TIG as a "problem."  I consider it experience.

For example, I could have been advanced to 1st Lt for my credentials as a teacher.  But, I would have known very little about CAP and have been the living embodiment of all the problems people see with our LEVEL I and RANK system.

I chose the time...better to be experienced, and patient, at a lower grade than an immature CAP Officer at a high one.  That was my thinking.

[Camas]

.....or the 2A can be relegated to the 90s and in its stead, the personnel officer and/or commander can use the "membership" and subsequent "promotions" utilities in e-services and promote them that way, paperless*.

I believe this is for duty promotions only.  If you're promoting due to mission related skills or professional appointments, then the CAPF 2 needs to be submitted. It wouldn't hurt to submit other documentation such as FAA certification and so forth.

[Monty]

.....or the 2A can be relegated to the 90s and in its stead, the personnel officer and/or commander can use the "membership" and subsequent "promotions" utilities in e-services and promote them that way, paperless*.

I believe this is for duty promotions only.  If you're promoting due to mission related skills or professional appointments, then the CAPF 2 needs to be submitted. It wouldn't hurt to submit other documentation such as FAA certification and so forth.

Not so sure.  Had a Spaatz recipient go up for Capt; I initiated the process in e-services, scanned and e-mailed the certificate by way of e-mail and voila!  24 hours from start to group to finish.  Betcha it'd work as easy for any other special circumstance!

Ne'er a 2A changed hands! 

[DNall]

Yeah the standard company grade duty performance ones are done on eServices. Anything that requires formal documentation you have to fill out a 2a electronically & submit with the docs in order to get the eServices request approved. Hell, we've had one turned back cause it was in word format instead of pdf, how stupid is that. I'm sure it's different in other places, and I know what we're doing isn't the intent of the move to paperless, but the eServices program isn't up to par yet so long as it doesn't allow inclusion of scanned documentation right there with the electronic request. I think they're doing the best they can with what they got to work with, which unfortunately for now is harder than it used to be on paper alone.

[James Shaw]

I havent seen on the thread about Squadron Commander promotions. So I will tell ya just in case. You are eligible for a "special promotion" to Captain if you are a current 1st Lt. after 1 continous year as a Squadron Commander. This has to be an assigned year...not filling in or additional duty and the kicker is that it does not count against the "1 Waiver Policy". However it does decrease your chances of the waiver promotion some. So the decision is up to you. This has to be approved through the Group Commander and all those above.

I know of an individual who was a 1st Lt as a Squadron Commander and a Captain after 14 Months, and then requested a 1/2 time waiver on promotion to Major. Took 5 Months to get but got it. They had 3 pages of backup data for the waiver. I inquired though NHQ what type of criteria would be necessary to do that and I was told "tell us why you walk on water and we will tell you yes or no". Sounds crazy but after reading some of the info I could see the "justification".

If you have a PhD you go in as a Captain and after 1 year you are eligible for Major. (I have been told this but have not verified myself)

[Al Sayre]

The PhD thing is true for Educators, Doctors etc..  I promoted one of mine to Major about 6 months ago under that reg.  That also doesn't count as a waiver.

[DNall]

Right, but not true just because you have a PhD. The degree doesn't mean anything to them. It's the univeristy professor (doctor, lawyer, etc) gig that makes it.

[LtCol Hooligan]

CAPF 2a is for Approval of Personnel Action.  CAPF 2 is a Request for Promotion Action.  You would use a CAPF 2 for a special appointment or an appointment to a FO rank and use eServices for a TIG appointment.  If a commander has a special appointment to process, they scan the CAPF 2, with signatues, along with required documents and e-mail it to lmmeforms@cap.gov.  They will take care of you.  In all reality, the signatures are actually not required and the commander could just e-mail a copy of the CAPF 2 to NHQ and type in the message of the e-mail- I approve this action.  Remember, SQ/CC can only approve 2d LT and 1st LT promotions.  All others must be done at higher echelons.  Oh and one other thing I also noticed is in the past, NHQ didn't really care about FO promotions, but keep the CAPF 2s on file so the member can get a special appointment upon turning 21. 

[DNall]

That's not a special appointment at 21 for FOs, it's duty performance. Explains it right there on the form.

Doesn't matter which form we're talking about, all are treated the same way in this eServices versus email process. That is to say each wing treats the dif forms the same, but Wings may have slightly dif processes, which is screwed up, but that's transition & worthless eServices system for ya.

[SAR-EMT1]

Ive never really understood why HQ didnt track FO status.

[RogueLeader]

I can understand not tracking cadets, because they can move relatively quickly.  But the FO grades aren't that different from officer grades, as far as Duty Requirements go- it's just age and TIG.  3months for FO- 6 2d Lt etc.

[DNall]

Having come up thru the FO grades, I think they should track those grades since they eventually bear on duty performance promotion at 21. It needs some tweaking too, but that's another conversation. Far as cadets, we do have to send in the 52s & they should track milestones on eServices. It'd be real nice if we could submit scans of the 52s via eServices & have it approved there.

[lordmonar]

Having come up thru the FO grades, I think they should track those grades since they eventually bear on duty performance promotion at 21. It needs some tweaking too, but that's another conversation. Far as cadets, we do have to send in the 52s & they should track milestones on eServices. It'd be real nice if we could submit scans of the 52s via eServices & have it approved there.

You can just E-mail the 52 and then they enter it into E-services for you.

[DNall]

really? My personnel officer checks my dates & faxes them for me. Do they record them in eSErvices? I don't believe I've noticed that.

[lordmonar]

really? My personnel officer checks my dates & faxes them for me. Do they record them in eSErvices? I don't believe I've noticed that.

Not 100% sure about E-services....but back when I was a Cadet Squadron CC...I would just E-mail the 52 and then check the CAPWATCH down load to see if they had updated it.  They would also send a return E-mail saying that it was done, if I requested it.  I'm not sure of the relationship between e-services and CAPWATCH, I "assume" (and you know how dangerous that can be) that they are the same databases or are linked in some way.

[DNall]

You know, thinking about it though, I think faxing it is probably easier then scan & email. I would be happy to see the ability to scan and submit inside eServices, for the 52s & other documentation for adult promotions, ES awards, etc.

[lordmonar]

You know, thinking about it though, I think faxing it is probably easier then scan & email. I would be happy to see the ability to scan and submit inside eServices, for the 52s & other documentation for adult promotions, ES awards, etc.

You don't need to scan it.  Just type <Signed> in the signature blocks.  If it requires extra signatures....you document that by forwarding the E-mail.

Did this a lot of times.  National does not need the actual signatures.

[DNall]

Why do they make such a big stink about sending in signature cards then. I swear! Have to talk to my Personnel officer about doing this in the future. I'm sure he'll apreciate it, thx.

[lordmonar]

Why do they make such a big stink about sending in signature cards then. I swear! Have to talk to my Personnel officer about doing this in the future. I'm sure he'll apreciate it, thx.

The signature card is for the AFDIL courses....the USAF requires those not National.

[DNall]

Actually your TCO is not the TCO of record for AFIADL, that's the one person at Wing. Plus you have to have sig cards for Sq CC & Deputy Cdr for cadets, those don't have anything to do with AU.

[lordmonar]

Well you know how bureaucracies are.  They did something 20 years ago for some good reason.....the reason went away....but the rules say you got to have signature cards.  And I don't know how you do things in TX...but here in Neveda....we do not go through our wing TCO.  AFIDL sends things directly to the squadron.  Again different bureaucracies.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well you know how bureaucracies are.  They did something 20 years ago for some good reason.....the reason went away....but the rules say you got to have signature cards.  And I don't know how you do things in TX...but here in Neveda....we do not go through our wing TCO.  AFIDL sends things directly to the squadron.  Again different bureaucracies.

In Texas, 'Af-a-diddle' sends the tests to Wing HQ and then they're forwarded to the squadron.

[RogueLeader]

Well you know how bureaucracies are.  They did something 20 years ago for some good reason.....the reason went away....but the rules say you got to have signature cards.  And I don't know how you do things in TX...but here in Neveda....we do not go through our wing TCO.  AFIDL sends things directly to the squadron.  Again different bureaucracies.

In Texas, 'Af-a-diddle' sends the tests to Wing HQ and then they're forwarded to the squadron.

Thats how its done in Iowa too.

[SAR-EMT1]

IL has it sent to Wing then Group, then group has to call the SQ /CCs to find out which unit it belongs to. It would be simpler to just have it sent to Sq.

[davedove]

Why do they make such a big stink about sending in signature cards then. I swear! Have to talk to my Personnel officer about doing this in the future. I'm sure he'll apreciate it, thx.

There are still a couple of forms that require original signatures, mainly the application forms.  Other than that, it's mainly the technology has surpassed the requirements that haven't been changed yet.

[DNall]

I'm all for making things faster & easier, but you very well know there's sig blocks on things for a reason & if you can skip right over them or just put /signed/ then what's the point. You know very well that someone with a little less integrity could abuse that... and someone eventually will get caught at it & screw everything up. I'm just not sure they've perfected this paperless thing yet, not till they can automate documentation & approvals in  more user-friendly version of eServices... Sorry, I know this is all off topic, but it's a pet peave of I think just about everyone.

[lordmonar]

I'm all for making things faster & easier, but you very well know there's sig blocks on things for a reason & if you can skip right over them or just put /signed/ then what's the point. You know very well that someone with a little less integrity could abuse that... and someone eventually will get caught at it & screw everything up. I'm just not sure they've perfected this paperless thing yet, not till they can automate documentation & approvals in  more user-friendly version of eServices... Sorry, I know this is all off topic, but it's a pet peave of I think just about everyone.

It can be abused now.  Like anyone at national or wing know all the signatures in my chain of command.

[DNall]

Sure, but you'd have to actually forge it at that point, and there's a sig card somewhere on them. I don't mind it being electronic, but it should be better fixed in eServices to deal with that (and the supporting documentation).

[lordmonar]

Sure, but you'd have to actually forge it at that point, and there's a sig card somewhere on them. I don't mind it being electronic, but it should be better fixed in eServices to deal with that (and the supporting documentation).

We any form that need signatures hare supposed to be E-mailed to each level in the chain. So if you wanted to "forge" and electronic promotion recommendation you would have to break into several different E-mail servers.

Even with E-services....it would still end up back in your commander action items for approval.

So either way.....the new paperless systems are just as secure as the old paper trail.

[DNall]

Actually it's quite easy to make an email "appear" to be from one person or another w/o breaking into their acct. And ypu can do it all anonyomously & cover your tracks pretty well.

eServices is arguably a much better way to do it, just with being able to upload documentation attached to the action requests.

The problem right now is we have to do either paper & email, or paper & eServices, or eServices & email, or all three to get one action thru. That's a lot of extra effort.

[SJFedor]

Here's a question since it bears some semblance on myself soon...

I turn 21 in a few weeks, and as an SFO with my TIG, I'm elligible for Capt. However, eServices still shows me as a SMWOG, elligible for 2d Lt. Would the best way for my promotion to go through be to fill out a Paper F2 with all the corresponding information as to why I'm going from SM to Capt as a duty performance?

It really would be nice if National kept track of the FO grades, make a lot less of a headache when transition time comes.

[AlphaSigOU]

Here's a question since it bears some semblance on myself soon...

I turn 21 in a few weeks, and as an SFO with my TIG, I'm elligible for Capt. However, eServices still shows me as a SMWOG, elligible for 2d Lt. Would the best way for my promotion to go through be to fill out a Paper F2 with all the corresponding information as to why I'm going from SM to Capt as a duty performance?

It really would be nice if National kept track of the FO grades, make a lot less of a headache when transition time comes.

Just to be on the safe side, I would go ahead and send in the Form 2, since FO/SFO/TFO grades are not tracked. The online duty promotion system, if I remember correctly only works for members over 21. But I could be wrong...

[SarDragon]

Here's a question since it bears some semblance on myself soon...

I turn 21 in a few weeks, and as an SFO with my TIG, I'm elligible for Capt. However, eServices still shows me as a SMWOG, elligible for 2d Lt. Would the best way for my promotion to go through be to fill out a Paper F2 with all the corresponding information as to why I'm going from SM to Capt as a duty performance?

It really would be nice if National kept track of the FO grades, make a lot less of a headache when transition time comes.

Just to be on the safe side, I would go ahead and send in the Form 2, since FO/SFO/TFO grades are not tracked. The online duty promotion system, if I remember correctly only works for members over 21. But I could be wrong...

You are, AFAIK, correct. I might be inclined, as a Pers type, to wait until after you turn 21 and do your F12, then see what shows up in MIMS, and then proceed accordingly.

Looking at a F2, this might end up being a two part process - a Section 2 SPECIAL APPOINTMENT/PROMOTION to whatever you are entitled to from the cadet program, and then a Duty Performance promotion to Capt.

Or it can all be done with a paper form and the appropriate entries in the Remarks section. I've never had to do one of these before.

YMMV.

[DNall]

ain't that complicated.
1) fill out the online form from NHQ
2) Email to Gp & Wg CC, state info copy w/ remarks, formal action on eServices
3) submit on eServices.

If it gets turned back, which it shouldn't, then you know who you need to call/email & explain it to.

[SarDragon]

I just looked at the online promotion form in eServices, and it seems to allow only duty performance promotions. I put in my own CAPID, and came up short on two items - TIG, and Level IV completion.

If the system doesn't know when his TIG as 1Lt started, it's not going to work. I think this will need to be done with a paper F2, at least to 1Lt. At the very least, he will need to be in the system as a SM before anything else can be determined.

YMMV.

[arajca]

Here's a question since it bears some semblance on myself soon...

I turn 21 in a few weeks, and as an SFO with my TIG, I'm elligible for Capt. However, eServices still shows me as a SMWOG, elligible for 2d Lt. Would the best way for my promotion to go through be to fill out a Paper F2 with all the corresponding information as to why I'm going from SM to Capt as a duty performance?

It really would be nice if National kept track of the FO grades, make a lot less of a headache when transition time comes.

Just to be on the safe side, I would go ahead and send in the Form 2, since FO/SFO/TFO grades are not tracked. The online duty promotion system, if I remember correctly only works for members over 21. But I could be wrong...

You are, AFAIK, correct. I might be inclined, as a Pers type, to wait until after you turn 21 and do your F12, then see what shows up in MIMS, and then proceed accordingly.

Looking at a F2, this might end up being a two part process - a Section 2 SPECIAL APPOINTMENT/PROMOTION to whatever you are entitled to from the cadet program, and then a Duty Performance promotion to Capt.

Or it can all be done with a paper form and the appropriate entries in the Remarks section. I've never had to do one of these before.

YMMV.

Since you're transitioning from SFO to Capt, it is a Duty Performance only, no special appointment paperwork  necessary. Ref CAPR 35-5, Ref Section II, Figure 2.

Fill out CAPF 2, Sections I, II, and III - Subsection (1). In Section IX, enter your promotion date to SFO and, to make it easier for the approvers, how many months ago it was. Then submit, keeping a copy for yourself of course.

[Pylon]

Fill out CAPF 2, Sections I, II, and III - Subsection (1). In Section IX, enter your promotion date to SFO and, to make it easier for the approvers, how many months ago it was. Then submit, keeping a copy for yourself of course.

Exactly as Arajca said!

If you want to make it even easier for the powers that be to verify your SFO Date of Grade (since it was your squadron commander who approved your SFO promotion, but Group or Wing CC who must approve the Capt), attach a copy of your signed and dated CAPF 2 from the SFO promo.