New CAP Governance Structure

[Pylon]

I'd go 50/50 on this - in the tech sector, a lot of it is street cred, but at a certain level, and for certain situations, the collegiate background becomes important,

I'd say the "tech sector" is an anomaly from the baseline, because it's a field heavily dependent on hard technical skills which rapidly change and the vast majority of which are not taught in a collegiate environment.  Still, any company I've been with, the CIO-type has had a degree (and was required to have one), most often a post-graduate level degree.

not because of ability, but because the financial world is invested in collegiate propagation.

And that's where your objective observations end and your personal view comes in.

[lordmonar]

While I understand the arguments in favor of allowing the possibility of someone without a bachelors to be chosen as National Commander we can't plan our regulations around the remote possibility that Super CAP Commander is out there without one making his/her way up the ranks causing grand improvements in the organization on the way up.  You can't regulate for the exceptions.

+1
You allow for the exceptions in the regulations but write the regulaitons for your base line expectations.

And just to note something about the trickle down theory.

If the National CC has to have a BA/BS and be a former wing commander.....then by extention we are going to see a strong suggestion to people who are or want to be wing commanders to have or get their BA/BS....because you are looking at them not just for their ability to do the wing CC job but also on their "promoteablity".  If I am a Regional CC looking at three candidates for wing CC.....and all things being more or less equal......the guy with a BA/BS would be more attractive pick because it allows him to move up.

[UWONGO2]

For me, take a list of people who are qualified, rank order them in order of "Best" to "Worst".  Start at the top, and ask each one "Do you want to be the National Commander", if they say "Yes", move on to the next name until someone says "Hell no, I don't want that crap!"  That's the guy/gal for the job.  I believe in the same system for almost all "high offices" from POTUS on down.   

"The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.

To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.

To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

[BuckeyeDEJ]

If the National CC has to have a BA/BS and be a former wing commander.....then by extention we are going to see a strong suggestion to people who are or want to be wing commanders to have or get their BA/BS....because you are looking at them not just for their ability to do the wing CC job but also on their "promoteablity".  If I am a Regional CC looking at three candidates for wing CC.....and all things being more or less equal......the guy with a BA/BS would be more attractive pick because it allows him to move up.

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

[NCRblues]

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

So, you think someone is crazy when they get a BS for wing king, but you think they need SOS and ACSC?

I am all supportive for a BS for the Nat/CC but, let's take it easy on wing commander requirements here. We have to remember that some wings have no one who CURRENTLY wants to take the wing king chair, let alone after we heap more and more pre-reqs on it. Requiring SOS and ACSC would leave some wings high and dry on anyone ABLE to take command

[abdsp51]

IMO cap235629 has a major axe to grind with the AF.  There are plenty of fields in which NCOs/SNCOs have led the way for years, case in point PJ/CCT,  that filed had no officers until the last few years. I just learned that the log plans field also has NCOs/SNCOs basiclly running that field too.  And a real kicker USAF SF are intrusted with a loaded weapon from the time they arrive at their first duty station.

[peter rabbit]

Interesting note - am I missing something, or did they remove the NHQ list of contacts from capmembers.com? It had a list of most of the extensions and email addresses you would need to pose a question to the NHQ staff. Does this mean we must now ask membership questions through a wing staff member? Is this something to do with the change in governance or just a coincidence?

[a2capt]

You mean this?

http://capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/nhq_contacts.cfm

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

So, you think someone is crazy when they get a BS for wing king, but you think they need SOS and ACSC?

I am all supportive for a BS for the Nat/CC but, let's take it easy on wing commander requirements here. We have to remember that some wings have no one who CURRENTLY wants to take the wing king chair, let alone after we heap more and more pre-reqs on it. Requiring SOS and ACSC would leave some wings high and dry on anyone ABLE to take command

It takes four years, at least, to get a bachelor's degree. If your aim is to get a diploma just so you can be a wing commander, that's silly. If you already have one, fine.

You don't need to have a bachelor's degree to take SOS in CAP. All you need is to be a major. That's a year and a half, tops. And the management/leadership skills and rationale you learn is more than worth it. You learn it the Air Force way.

[lordmonar]

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

So, you think someone is crazy when they get a BS for wing king, but you think they need SOS and ACSC?

I am all supportive for a BS for the Nat/CC but, let's take it easy on wing commander requirements here. We have to remember that some wings have no one who CURRENTLY wants to take the wing king chair, let alone after we heap more and more pre-reqs on it. Requiring SOS and ACSC would leave some wings high and dry on anyone ABLE to take command

I agree.......hence the way I stated it.  A BS/BA for wing commanders should never be a requirment.....but should be a desirable qualification.
Because if we take the military model to the extreame....your wing commander would come from the pool of willing/available former group and unit commanders. Your Regional commander should come from your group of willing/available former wing commanders.....and your national and vice commander would come from your former regional commanders.  With of course the ability to jump a qualified former wing commander straight to the command slot.

One of the things I hope the governance change will fix....is that it will increase the number of people who are willing to take on wing and regional leadership positions....because it reduced (but not eliminates) the political BS they have to deal with.  They can focus on the mission at hand.

[lordmonar]

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

So, you think someone is crazy when they get a BS for wing king, but you think they need SOS and ACSC?

I am all supportive for a BS for the Nat/CC but, let's take it easy on wing commander requirements here. We have to remember that some wings have no one who CURRENTLY wants to take the wing king chair, let alone after we heap more and more pre-reqs on it. Requiring SOS and ACSC would leave some wings high and dry on anyone ABLE to take command

It takes four years, at least, to get a bachelor's degree. If your aim is to get a diploma just so you can be a wing commander, that's silly. If you already have one, fine.

You don't need to have a bachelor's degree to take SOS in CAP. All you need is to be a major. That's a year and a half, tops. And the management/leadership skills and rationale you learn is more than worth it. You learn it the Air Force way.

Well....maybe you have hit on something that needs to be looked at.
The USAF (I would assume) would love for us to REQUIRE a BS/BA for senior members......and that we make it harder for our members to make rank....i.e. no more 22 year old Capts.  Et Al.

But the point being.......if you take a 12 year old who says "I want to fly figher jets".......you tell him what he needs to do to reach that goal.  So you take your brand new Senior Member who says "I want to be top dog some day" you tell him what he needs to do to reach that goal.

It is that simple.

[ßτε]

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

So, you think someone is crazy when they get a BS for wing king, but you think they need SOS and ACSC?

I am all supportive for a BS for the Nat/CC but, let's take it easy on wing commander requirements here. We have to remember that some wings have no one who CURRENTLY wants to take the wing king chair, let alone after we heap more and more pre-reqs on it. Requiring SOS and ACSC would leave some wings high and dry on anyone ABLE to take command

It takes four years, at least, to get a bachelor's degree. If your aim is to get a diploma just so you can be a wing commander, that's silly. If you already have one, fine.

You don't need to have a bachelor's degree to take SOS in CAP. All you need is to be a major. That's a year and a half, tops. And the management/leadership skills and rationale you learn is more than worth it. You learn it the Air Force way.

Actually, you do need a bachelor's degree to take SOS in CAP. This changed when the Air Force realized that CAP Majors don't necessarily have bachelor's degrees.

[flyguy06]

Ned,

What does CSAG stand for? and so since the requirement is Wing Commander. A person can go from Wing Commander to Nat'l CC skipping the Region CC job? Although I think if the competition is good and you have someone that was a Region CC versus someone who wasnt the person who was would hve favor.

Read the press release in the first post in this thread and all will be revealed.

I did read it.

[Dragoon]

Final Exam:  How many active duty generals are unpaid volunteers?

Hint: Zero.

That's why the discussion is far from "simple".

Yes it is. As long as it's their uniform and their titles, it's gonna be their rules.  Whine all you want - you take the King's shilling, you do the King's bidding.  It's their culture.  And my guess is we'll find plenty of candidates who meet that simple requirement.

[flyguy06]

Some replies:

1.  The CSAG / NEC will select the CAP BoG appointees.  No BoG approval or confirmation of the CSAG appointees.

2. The CSAG is the CAP Senior Advisory Group, which is a slimmer and more representative version of the old NEC.

3.  A wing commander already had the ability to go straight to National Commander.  No change.  I think Gen Courter had not been a region commander., but it is late and I might be wrong on that.

4.  If leadership is innate and not learned Uncle Sam sure wastes a lot of money on places like West Point and all my ROTC classes.  Our colleagues in the AF believe so strongly in a college education that they will not allow you to be a second lieutenant without a degree.  Our national commander will lead 60,000 volunteers and oversee management of $200 million of assets., most purchased with tax dollars.  A degree seems reasonable for the position.  But that can be waived for an exceptional individual.

Thank you Ned. CSAG is the CAP Senior Advisory Council. Thank you for that clarification. That abbreviation wasnt in the original press release. And I didnt know WIng CC's could go straight to Nat'l CC. I think Gen Courter was the GLR Commander but I could be wrong. I live down south. Anyway, thatsnks again and it wa a pleasure meeting you.

[cap235629]

Why is it that the only people who feel strongly about judging the value of a college degree tend to be the people who don't have one?

Who said I don't have a degree?

I am speaking from experience and maybe that has jaded my opinion a bit. To the man, every bad "leader" I have ever encountered was a college educated incompetent.  Inversely every leader I have served under who came up through the ranks and did not have a degree proved to be some of the best leaders I have encountered.  I just don't see why we would choose to exclude a large portion of our membership from the pool of talent for a VOLUNTEER position.

[badger bob]

MG Courter was the Michigan wing commander prior to running for VC. She had not been a region commander.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Sorry, but if someone rushes out to get a bachelor's degree just to be a wing commander, they're crazy.

I think SOS and possibly ACSC should be additional requirements for a wing commander.

So, you think someone is crazy when they get a BS for wing king, but you think they need SOS and ACSC?

I am all supportive for a BS for the Nat/CC but, let's take it easy on wing commander requirements here. We have to remember that some wings have no one who CURRENTLY wants to take the wing king chair, let alone after we heap more and more pre-reqs on it. Requiring SOS and ACSC would leave some wings high and dry on anyone ABLE to take command

It takes four years, at least, to get a bachelor's degree. If your aim is to get a diploma just so you can be a wing commander, that's silly. If you already have one, fine.

You don't need to have a bachelor's degree to take SOS in CAP. All you need is to be a major. That's a year and a half, tops. And the management/leadership skills and rationale you learn is more than worth it. You learn it the Air Force way.

Actually, you do need a bachelor's degree to take SOS in CAP. This changed when the Air Force realized that CAP Majors don't necessarily have bachelor's degrees.

Yes, that's right. I skipped right over that.

My point is, who's going to go back to school for four years to get a degree just to be CAP wing commander?

I don't have a problem with requiring a bachelor's degree to be a CAP officer. We require additional training beyond that, of course, but I think to make full colonel, it wouldn't hurt to have some Air Force PME in your background. Wanna be part of the larger Air Force team, gotta learn how the team works. Ain't nuthin' wrong with that.

If, in some wings, there aren't qualified candidates, the rules will have to bend one way or another, it would seem. We'll see how the governors and region commanders handle those circumstances.

[Garibaldi]

My question is why even bother making a BA/BS a REQUIREMENT for SOS or promotion, if one doesn't need it to be a Wing King? Why put that sort of requirement on volunteers who may not want to further their edumication? As I stated a few posts back, I have 99% of a BA and have no interest in completing it, not for CAP or anyone.

Having an educational requirement beyond a HS diploma or GED seems really out of place in a volunteer organization. It just really makes no sense to me, and you will cut out a large portion of potential LTCs and COLs with that kind of requirement. Were I not so close to LTC I might make more of a stink about it, but this just seems so silly. There's no practical reason for anyone to HAVE a BS/BA in order to be a CAP officer. If you have one already, congratulations. But for those of us who lack a baccalaureate or post-graduate degree, I doubt that we will rush out to get one just for the sake of a promotion. Math says $50,000 in student or private loans plus a non-tangible return on that investment equals a waste of time if you get turned down for wing king or region command. Many of us do not plan to serve on wing staff, much less run for wing king. Having this requirement filtered down to the local squadron level is asinine.

[Майор Хаткевич]

The USAF (I would assume) would love for us to REQUIRE a BS/BA for senior members......and that we make it harder for our members to make rank....i.e. no more 22 year old Capts.  Et Al.

Then we'd need some other grade structure for those w/o a degree.

As to 22 Year old Captains...

At 21 someone finishes college, by 22 they are a 1st Lt, and by 23 1/2 they are a Captain. Doesn't shift it much in terms of CAP.