Award for outgoing Squadron Commander

[Майор Хаткевич]

Someone needs to update their signature.

[Eclipse]

...a standing 'O' at the ceremony...

Just for clarity - not providing chairs and having a cadet hold up a big "APPLAUSE" sign would not be considered by everyone as a "standing O".    :clap:

FWIW, you're now part of a very exclusive club - former CC's of the best unit in the Wing.  Congrats on a job well...done.

[PWK-GT]

Someone needs to update their signature.

Well, until the 'new guy' gets the electronic placement and privileges, I'm stuck holding the bag :-)

...a standing 'O' at the ceremony...

Just for clarity - not providing chairs and having a cadet hold up a big "APPLAUSE" sign would not be considered by everyone as a "standing O".    :clap:

FWIW, you're now part of a very exclusive club - former CC's of the best unit in the Wing.  Congrats on a job well...done.

Heh. We haven't been issued any chairs, so I thought I was on solid ground :-)  And it was I who was holding the sign up.....otherwise it might have been considered hazing       But you nailed it on being the best unit in the Wing....but I know I'm biased. :angel:

[jimmydeanno]

Maybe you increased the membership 200%, served for 15 years, received SoM and SoD 5 years running, etc., etc.

Here lies the problem with the CAP awards system, interpretation of what is above and beyond the normal call.

For example, I've been in units that were SoM 8 out of 10 years, consistently had the largest membership in the wing, consistently grew, hosted wing level activities, etc., and the awards committee decides that they don't merit a unit citation, despite clearly meeting the criteria in the reg, because "that's what we're supposed to be doing."  When we make awards that are comparisons to others, doing what you're supposed to, often times, is greatly above and beyond "when compared to similar..."

The scope thing bothers me, too.  I get aggrevated when the Region Assistant Testing Officer for the smallest region does a one year stint, gets an ESM because they work at the "region" level, when the squadron commander, or CDC at the squadron level, turns a unit that is about to close into the largest most successful unit in the wing in under a year and doesn't even get a "hey, you're doing a great job."  To me, the testing person shouldn't really get anything, and the squadron guy should get at least an MSA. 

I really think that we need to come up with a "scope" and "impact" chart or something so that the lower level guys that rock are eligible to receive the higher awards for being rockstars, and the upper level awards aren't just awarded because you happen to live down the street from Wing HQ, so that's the level you serve at.

Not to toot my own horn, but I've been the spearhead of stopping numerous squadrons from closing over the course of the last 10 years, grown squadrons to the top 3% size wise in short periods of time, and have had to fight time and time again for superiors to authorize awards for the folks that helped me do it.  I've been awarded five CCAs one Nat'l CC CCA, and an MSA, all of which had nothing to do with accomplishments in running and building those units.  They were all some sort of special project of some kind. 

It's disappointing really.  I think it would be kind of insulting to present an achievement medal to a squadron commander who actually did something.  I'd put them in for a CCA - minimum.

[Eclipse]

It's disappointing really.  I think it would be kind of insulting to present an achievement medal to a squadron commander who actually did something.  I'd put them in for a CCA - minimum.

I don't understand the heartburn with the Ach - it's a decoration with the proper scope and approved by the next higher HQ.

The only thing a commander can do is what he can do, and proper application of decorations in regards to criteria and scope are
what he can do.  As a Group CC, just because I am aware of what I might consider inappropriate awards elsewhere doesn't mean
I should change my interpretation of the regs just to prove a point.

The problem you're pointing to is not unique to CAP, it's endemic in any subjective awards system, especially a military one where
it's possible and even common for the recipient to be writing and hand-holding his own paperwork - and that happens at all levels.

[jimmydeanno]

It's disappointing really.  I think it would be kind of insulting to present an achievement medal to a squadron commander who actually did something.  I'd put them in for a CCA - minimum.

I don't understand the heartburn with the Ach - it's a decoration with the proper scope and approved by the next higher HQ.

The only thing a commander can do is what he can do, and proper application of decorations in regards to criteria and scope are
what he can do.  As a Group CC, just because I am aware of what I might consider inappropriate awards elsewhere doesn't mean
I should change my interpretation of the regs just to prove a point.

The problem you're pointing to is not unique to CAP, it's endemic in any subjective awards system, especially a military one where
it's possible and even common for the recipient to be writing and hand-holding his own paperwork - and that happens at all levels.

I'm not faulting you for your award of the achievement medal, and I don't really have heartburn with the award.  However, I don't see running a squadron for a term, and organizing a group level cadet competition to be equivalent, but both actions could be awarded an achievement medal simply because they are "group level" operations.  So, you have two people, one who has to direct and manage a significant number of people over a sustained period of time, train, organize, equip, mentor, ensure readiness, expand, and fulfill all three of CAPs missions in their community, which could extend over an entire county or more being told that the effort that it took to conduct a 1.5 day activity is equivalent.  I don't think so.

Also, the squadron commanders are appointed by the Wing Commander, not the Group Commander, so the "next higher headquarters" for them is the Wing, so a Commander's Commendation would be the appropriate award based on scope.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't know if a 1.5 day activity warrants the Achievement award...

[jimmydeanno]

I don't know if a 1.5 day activity warrants the Achievement award...

Well, if we're talking about scope and achievement...

One would assume that if the NCC guy gets an ESA (5 days), then the Region NCC guy would get an MSA (2 days), the Wing guy would get a CCA (2 days), and the group guy would get an AM (1.5 days), right?  And what if the person running the even wasn't in that specialty track, i.e. an IG running a CP event.  Wouldn't that then be above and beyond their normal duties?  But the guy at the unit who's doing 9 different jobs doesn't get anything because he's listed in e-services as being assigned to them, making them part of his normal duties...

[Eclipse]

I'm not faulting you for your award of the achievement medal, and I don't really have heartburn with the award.  However, I don't see running a squadron for a term, and organizing a group level cadet competition to be equivalent, but both actions could be awarded an achievement medal simply because they are "group level" operations.  So, you have two people, one who has to direct and manage a significant number of people over a sustained period of time, train, organize, equip, mentor, ensure readiness, expand, and fulfill all three of CAPs missions in their community, which could extend over an entire county or more being told that the effort that it took to conduct a 1.5 day activity is equivalent.  I don't think so.

The exact same argument can be made for any decoration, regardless of the awarding authority.  Scope is scope, and I reject your characterization that
a single activity might be somehow "less" than the ongoing work of a commander.  That single activity may have taken 6 months to plan and encompassed 200 people, not to mention that a unit CC is not a 1-man band.  He's (supposed to have) got a staff of people who are doing the real work of the unit.  A CC is supposed to point, not shoot.

Let's not try to make this something it isn't by comparing two ends of the spectrum in the same sentence and then comparing them.  We can all point to situations where the subjective nature of decorations, as well as the will to bother submitting them, has appeared to be unfairly applied. 

Also, the squadron commanders are appointed by the Wing Commander, not the Group Commander, so the "next higher headquarters" for them is the Wing, so a Commander's Commendation would be the appropriate award based on scope.

That doesn't fly.  Yes, the Wing CC appoints all commanders, but that's an administrative foible of our governance, not any recognition of the
actual span of control or command structure.   Wing CC's are appointed by NHQ, not the Region, yet clearly Region is the next higher HQ from a Wing.

[Eclipse]

One would assume that if the NCC guy gets an ESA (5 days), then the Region NCC guy would get an MSA (2 days), the Wing guy would get a CCA (2 days), and the group guy would get an AM (1.5 days), right?  And what if the person running the even wasn't in that specialty track, i.e. an IG running a CP event.  Wouldn't that then be above and beyond their normal duties?  But the guy at the unit who's doing 9 different jobs doesn't get anything because he's listed in e-services as being assigned to them, making them part of his normal duties...

Cadet Competitions, even at the Wing level, are not "1.5 day events" they take weeks to months to plan, and the higher you go, the more staff you have.
In my Region, the DCS for CP (is that the correct symbol?) has to attend / coordinate multiple activities in different wings before the the RCC can take place.
That's interstate travel over the entire year, over and above his normal duties, which also require interstate travel.  There's hotels, meals, 50 cadets
who are all running in different directions, 100 commanders with a different opinion, 200 parents mad their son didn't win, etc.

Many "weekend" activities have budgets that are as much as a smaller wing's operating budget, and 50 moving pieces beyond the participants.

On the poor side of the understanding, there are far too many unit CC's who think they can accomplish their mission in 2-3 hours a week - that's 150(ish) hours a year - about equal to the working hours of the average encampment, or a few "weekend activities".

Remember, we're comparing "baseline" here, not the top of the CC's vs. the least deserving "activity PIC".

And few people doing "9 jobs" are going to do them all on a level that is commendable (since for starters he shouldn't have 9 jobs).

It took me 8-10 years to earn that ribbon in the upper left of my rack.  I know others who received one for a successful inspection.  Different CC's
interpreting scope as they saw fit.  Comparing them just cheapens the situation for everyone - how arrogant do I need to be to feel
my "x" is better then the other guy's "x", especially in the light of someone else's view.  Maybe that "x" saved CAP thousands of dollars, got the
wing off freeze for the first time in years, etc., etc.

Such is the subjective nature of the situation, but it can also be counterproductive to work the other way.  Pushing for decs beyond the proper
scope sets up exactly the situation you are indicating is a problem.

[jimmydeanno]

That doesn't fly.  Yes, the Wing CC appoints all commanders, but that's an administrative foible of our governance, not any recognition of the
actual span of control or command structure.   Wing CC's are appointed by NHQ, not the Region, yet clearly Region is the next higher HQ from a Wing.

The Wing Commanders get DSMs at the end of their tours, something that requires "national scope."  So, that award seems to be at the level of the person that appoints them:

b. The National Commander is authorized to award the Distinguished Service Award

c. Distinguished Service Award Conspicuous performance of outstanding service in a duty of great responsibility where the position held and results obtained reflect upon the accomplishments and prestige of CAP on a national scale.

So, it would make sense that a squadron commander, appointed by the wing commander would/should be in the scope of the commander's commendation:

Commander's Commendation Award. Outstanding duty performance where achievements and services are clearly and unmistakably exceptional when compared to similar achievements and service of members of like rank and responsibility.

It works even better when pointed out that the wings that don't have groups typically follow that logic.  Why would we "downgrade" an award simply because there is another layer of bureaucracy?

If we use our "parent organization" as a model, they don't award achievement awards to people that exceed a certain rank.  You won't find a General walking around with 600 achievement medals, because at some point their service exceeds the criteria for that award.  I've never seen an Air Force squadron commander awarded an achievement medal at the end of their tour.  Meritorious Service Medal, most likely.  Sure, not direct equivalents, but the point is that the people in the hot seat shouldn't be considered for the lowest of our commendations after a successful tour.

[Eclipse]

Wing CC's are also National Board members.  By design they have a national scope (or at least they do as of today).

Just because a Wing doesn't have a formal Group structure, doesn't automatically increase the scope of a unit's influence to the wing level.
It simply means that the wing is either too small to need them, or their span of control is probably off kilter - and a lot of wings without Group
CC's still have an administrative structure within the XX-001 unit that recognizes the geographic scope of a "group of units" - some wings don't want
to have to deal with the administrative overhead of more charters and SUIs - that doesn't mean those squadrons automatically have a wing scope.

The average unit is not going to have any influence beyond the town or county they are chartered in, if they do, they are probably crossing into someone else's AOR, or the wing needs to consider more charters.   That's just the nature of CAP.

If we use our "parent organization" as a model, they don't award achievement awards to people that exceed a certain rank.  You won't find a General walking around with 600 achievement medals, because at some point their service exceeds the criteria for that award.  I've never seen an Air Force squadron commander awarded an achievement medal at the end of their tour.  Meritorious Service Medal, most likely.  Sure, not direct equivalents, but the point is that the people in the hot seat shouldn't be considered for the lowest of our commendations after a successful tour.

Can't compare the two. 

You also won't find a General commanding a flight in BMT, but you could certainly find CAP Generals, and there are a number of full CAP Colonels, commanding squadrons.  Your example only works in an "up or out" model, since it would also appear to limit awards to new guys too naive not
to say "no" to jobs at the wing level (or higher) before they have competed Level I. 

Commander's Commendation Award. Outstanding duty performance where achievements and services are clearly and unmistakably exceptional when compared to similar achievements and service of members of like rank and responsibility.

This quote makes my point.  To be considered for a Comm Comm, you'd have to be head-and-shoulders above your peer commanders, since the only other members of like responsibility would be other unit CC's.

[Maj. Joe Mora]

I'm thinking a nice ham...