BDU replacement uniform

[ccm303]

Hi, I joined CAP as a Senior Member a few weeks ago and have been hearing things about the BDUs possibly being replaced soon with ABUs. After reading previous topics on this forum and some articles on the Internet, is it possible that instead of getting the green light For the ABUs, we get Multicam instead? Personally this is what I see coming. I have held off buying my BDUs until the National Conference In August, Then I will buy whatever uniform is approved. What do you guys think.

Thanks
James Goez

[lordmonar]

I don't expect anything earth shattering at the NB.


If there is any changes we will be getting the ABUs...not the multicam.

[Extremepredjudice]

NO. You are hearing rumors. Rumors are just that, rumors. We have no idea.

CAP must request the new uniform from the air force.

[Eclipse]

Hi, I joined CAP as a Senior Member a few weeks ago and have been hearing things about the BDUs possibly being replaced soon with ABUs.

Welcome to CAPtalk and CAP.

So, just for conversations sake, where did you "hear" this, especially if you're a new member?

There hasn't been a hint from NHQ on any uniform changes in a couple of years, beyond background chatter, and nothing submitted to the USAF
that has been made public.  It's possible the whole thing has been going on quietly and we'll seen an announcement tomorrow, but there's certainly
been nothing anywhere that would intimate anything is changing.

As a matter of history, these things are generally announced, out up for comment in regards to their configuration, and then a phase-in date and sundown are announced. 

The practical matter of the military's various uniforms being in flux isn't likely to make this go any faster.  If I were NHQ, I'd be waiting for that to sort itself out, because the day they authorize "new", members will spend money, and the last thing you'd want is announcing a new uniform, only to have it disavowed 6 months or a year later by the parent service.

My personal opinion is that CAP will never get ABU's, and the USAF will be in "other" within the next 3-5 years, and it's probably more likely that CAP would consolidate their fields uniforms on the dark blue as move to another camo variant.

And also, search is your friend.

[LGM30GMCC]

First off welcome to the forums. You've picked quite the topic to dive in on. Expect there to be fires but don't let that discourage you.

It's good you've read up here and elsewhere on what folks think and you likely will hear the same things repeated here. I'll try to condense what the issues are that people tend to bring up:

1) There are currently no Official Public plans to replace the BDUs. There have been discussions all the way up to the NHQ level but at this time nothing concrete. Staying tuned until after the NB is likely a good bet.

2) If we switch from BDUs we likely will switch to a USAF style uniform. Currently, the USAF has not indicated it is going to be doing a massive switch to Multicams so that is not likely to be a pattern chosen for us for quite some time.

3) If the USAF does switch to Multicam there could be several directions CAP could choose. One would be to meet up with the USAF and go for Multicam, the other would be to take the huge influx of ABUs as the USAF phases them out and eventually meet up with the USAF. Another would be to adopt their Multi-cam uniform and phase in at the rate the USAF is. This could present additional logistical challenges.

4) There is constant discussion/contention between the need/desire to look like the USAF for Cadet Programs and USAF-CAP coordination purposes (not CAP-USAF the organization) and looking like our big brothers and the push to look distinctive from them and more like LE/Civilian organizations we often work with during ES operations.

5) There is no tactical reason CAP needs camo uniforms. They may look cool, but they do not provide the same benefits to CAP that they do to the military services. There are reasonable arguments to be made about using something solid and more visible for GT work. That being said, there are other solutions including over vests (larger than the traditional 'orange vest', think Motorcycle safety gear. It's actually what I use for a number of reasons) and bright gear. Additionally, nation-wide the SAR mission continues to decrease in number of sorties flown and more importantly use of GTs to actually prosecute the target.

The flip-side argument is that camo uniforms in the same style of the USAF provide a recruiting incentive for the cadet programs and to some extent the senior program. There is debate as to whether this is good or bad. The debate basically boils down to the fear of people looking like 'wannabes' versus looking, feeling, and acting more like our military counterparts. Those in the latter group see it not as being a wannabe so much as just being another component of the USAF. (AD, Guard, Reserve and Auxiliary.)

That should cover the resulting firestorm and pages and pages of discussion that may or may not follow.

Cheers!

Edit 1: Minor grammatical edit.

[Eclipse]

...nation-wide the SAR mission continues to decrease in number of sorties flown and more importantly use of GTs to actually prosecute the target...

Cite please.

[LGM30GMCC]

...nation-wide the SAR mission continues to decrease in number of sorties flown and more importantly use of GTs to actually prosecute the target...

Cite please.

"CAP totaled fewer search and rescue flying hours but saved more lives in 2010, thanks in part to membersʼ radar and cell phone forensics expertise, which helped reduce the search area size, allowing CAP to locate survivors more quickly." - 2010 CAP Financial Report (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Financial_Report_2010_LowRes_C911D953E9717.pdf)

I'm not saying there isn't a cost-benefit analysis to be made. I'm saying it has less of an impact than it did in the past. Additionally, as our tech/comm improve it decreases even further. (Worked both sides of air/ground coordination. And that is where the argument has the most merit vs the on-the-ground visibility between team-members or team-member to survivor. Ground-to-ground has the advantage of things that negate any amount of camo to begin with. Like whistles, your voice, breaking sticks/twigs/etc, and that's in the worse case scenario of being in a wooded area in a woodland camo pattern during the summer.)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ok, down from the previous year. Is there a trend?

[Private Investigator]

Hi, I joined CAP as a Senior Member a few weeks ago and have been hearing things about the BDUs possibly being replaced soon with ABUs.

Welcome aboard.

I really doubt it. It took a long time to get BDUs. 

[RADIOMAN015]

Hi, I joined CAP as a Senior Member a few weeks ago and have been hearing things about the BDUs possibly being replaced soon with ABUs. After reading previous topics on this forum and some articles on the Internet, is it possible that instead of getting the green light For the ABUs, we get Multicam instead? Personally this is what I see coming. I have held off buying my BDUs until the National Conference In August, Then I will buy whatever uniform is approved. What do you guys think.

Thanks
James Goez

Well you could just buy the Blue BDU's and not have to worry about any changes, since likely that uniform will be retained. :angel:   HOWEVER, on the other hand if your squadron has a regular BDU uniform that can be issued to you that would save you money on a utility uniform.
RM   

[Extremepredjudice]

Hi, I joined CAP as a Senior Member a few weeks ago and have been hearing things about the BDUs possibly being replaced soon with ABUs. After reading previous topics on this forum and some articles on the Internet, is it possible that instead of getting the green light For the ABUs, we get Multicam instead? Personally this is what I see coming. I have held off buying my BDUs until the National Conference In August, Then I will buy whatever uniform is approved. What do you guys think.

Thanks
James Goez

Well you could just buy the Blue BDU's and not have to worry about any changes, since likely that uniform will be retained. :angel:   HOWEVER, on the other hand if your squadron has a regular BDU uniform that can be issued to you that would save you money on a utility uniform.
RM

Cite please.

[Eclipse]

Ok, down from the previous year. Is there a trend?

+1 - that cite is two years old and refers to three years ago.  My wing has been just about as consistently busy in the last couple of years as ever.
Same ELT chases - a couple a month, same # of finds, same amount of missing persons and DR work.

We're going to have an issue this year with flying hours because of that week in October where no thought we had any money.  The actual impact was
essentially zero, but the rumor-ripple that is caused lasted well into early 2012, and no matter how much we told people there was plenty of money,
they thought the opposite and weren't planning training or O-rides.

My wing had actually been on an upward trend the last fews years before that.

[NCRblues]

Ok, down from the previous year. Is there a trend?

+1 - that cite is two years old and refers to three years ago.  My wing has been just about as consistently busy in the last couple of years as ever.
Same ELT chases - a couple a month, same # of finds, same amount of missing persons and DR work.

We're going to have an issue this year with flying hours because of that week in October where no thought we had any money.  The actual impact was
essentially zero, but the rumor-ripple that is caused lasted well into early 2012, and no matter how much we told people there was plenty of money,
they thought the opposite and weren't planning training or O-rides.

My wing had actually been on an upward trend the last fews years before that.

I think it is a variable from wing to wing. My wings numbers of actual missions are WAY down. Not always a bad thing of course (less aircraft accidents, missing person's ext). But, if the drought continues and my wing picks up wildfires, than our missions will shoot up. I think putting a "normal" number on missions is very hard to do. It changes from season to season and weather front to weather front. My wings numbers are down because of the lack of tornado producing thunderstorms. No tornados = no GT deployment and no air flights for pictures. Each wing is different.

[Eclipse]

I agree, not to mention the hurricanes that seem to be getting ready to pop again after a few years off.

[RADIOMAN015]

...snip..snip..

5) There is no tactical reason CAP needs camo uniforms. They may look cool, but they do not provide the same benefits to CAP that they do to the military services. There are reasonable arguments to be made about using something solid and more visible for GT work. That being said, there are other solutions including over vests (larger than the traditional 'orange vest', think Motorcycle safety gear. It's actually what I use for a number of reasons) and bright gear. Additionally, nation-wide the SAR mission continues to decrease in number of sorties flown and more importantly use of GTs to actually prosecute the target.


Edit 1: Minor grammatical edit.

During a recent class I took, the good folks at Air Force Rescue & Coordination Center actually stated that the  bright lime green safety vest and blue (actually a lighter blue) uniform is more easily to see than the orange vest and current BDU uniform.

As far as ground ES missions go, I think that's going to vary greatly depending upon what wing you are in and what CAP is allowed to do in that respective state.  Some states don't utilized CAP for any missing person searches, while others do and that could result in more missions.

RM   

[LGM30GMCC]

Please read the quote again: "CAP totaled fewer search and rescue flying hours..." (Emphasis mine)

These are the type of missions/activities that generally require the Ground/Air coordination that gives the greatest strength to the "It's easier to see X and Y colors from the air."

If you read further in the report (and unfortunately the report from 2011 is not on the site yet) it says all our other missions are up. Way up.

Also, I said GTs prosecuting the targets. I mean on the ground, in the woods/brush/whatever doing the search in coordination with an aircrew overhead. That's where the 'We need to be visible from the air' argument is strongest. (Given those folks the benefit of their strongest argument because as RM pointed out, and I have not disagreed with, from the air, certain combos are easier to see.)

GTs on the ground after a tornado, or hurricane, or whatever could be wearing whatever colors and it won't matter nearly as much.

I'm not saying the GT mission is dead or dying; it is however changing and if folks don't work through those changes (as many wings are, which is good) then there is a good chance things will dry up. More and more tech is getting crammed on our aircraft which is making the GT search part of SAR less and less relevant. (Ex: NDWG and it's FLIR. I've seen FLIR on USAF aircraft...you can wear as much bloody camo as you want...it does you squat to hide from an aircraft so equipped. Trust me...that's exactly what I was tasked to do. We were briefed 'Short of hiding under something...you're going to be spotted.)

The argument that 'it's harder to be spotted by an aircrew in camo' is getting weaker.

On topic: If the USAF isn't in Multicam we have 0 reason to go to a multicam uniform. It doesn't match up with the USAF so the argument to look like the USAF goes away. And the argument, you can't be seen as easily in camo argument becomes a reason not to use it and there is no counter argument to multicam other than 'it looks cool'

If the USAF changes to a multicam uniform then we have the routes of 'Stay in Woodland' (as it is cheaper/easier to get still) 'Switch to ABUs' (Historical prescendent of USAF, plus they'll be shedding them to us) 'Switch to Multicam' (Same arguments for/against as to why folks want to go into ABUs) 'Dump it all and go to BBDUs or something else' (This is that argument that OPs vs CP vs 'Others' really gets into.  :angel:)

All in all though. There's still nothing solid. There may be after the NB meeting. We'll see. Until then, RM is correct that the BBDU isn't likely to evaporate quickly even if they crushed it at the NB. An entire uniform would likely take months to a year to evaporate (see: CSU), no promises though. They could say 'It's phased out tomorrow. Good Luck.' But that is highly unlikely.

[abdsp51]

The USAF is not going to be dumping the ABU anytime soon.  There are bigger issues to deal with than outfitting the entire service and incoming recruits with a new pattern.  And unless someone has an official memo from either the SECAF, CSAF or the CMSAF then any references to the AF getting rid of the ABU is purely speculation and rumor. 

[wuzafuzz]

Hi, I joined CAP as a Senior Member a few weeks ago and have been hearing things about the BDUs possibly being replaced soon with ABUs. After reading previous topics on this forum and some articles on the Internet, is it possible that instead of getting the green light For the ABUs, we get Multicam instead? Personally this is what I see coming. I have held off buying my BDUs until the National Conference In August, Then I will buy whatever uniform is approved. What do you guys think.

Thanks
James Goez

Well you could just buy the Blue BDU's and not have to worry about any changes, since likely that uniform will be retained. :angel:   HOWEVER, on the other hand if your squadron has a regular BDU uniform that can be issued to you that would save you money on a utility uniform.
RM

Cite please.

Cite please?  Seriously? 

Why can't someone present their own conclusion based on available facts?  No authority other than his own was claimed or implied.

IMHO, it's unlikely the Blue BDU will be removed as an option.  It's the only field uniform available for members who don't meet weight and grooming standards for BDU wear.  True, some members say the blue utility uniform is acceptable in the field.  However, by CAP's own definition it is not a "field" uniform.

[wuzafuzz]

Then again, if I could get a "ruggedized polo" to go with some grey tactical style pants, I'd wear it in the field. 

I wish I could get one of these as an acceptable CAP uniform polo shirt:
http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Shirts/Polos/Performance-Polo-Short-Sleeve-Synthetic-Knit.html
The mic loops and pen pockets solve my two biggest gripes with the polo shirt.  It would be my perfect uniform for UDF.  If I knew how to do decent silkscreening I'd do it.  Finding a professional to do that would probably violate copyright or trademark or whatever brought the Hock Shop down.

Perhaps I will create one in orange with a navy blue CAP logo silkscreened on it.     It would make the uniform Nazis shoot blood out of their eye sockets.     (Actually I'm quite diligent about proper uniform wear.)

[Eclipse]

Finding a professional to do that would probably violate copyright or trademark or whatever brought the Hock Shop down.

If you're doing it for your own use (or other members) with no commercial profit, there'd be no issue.  Members are granted license for official use.

Wow - that's a sweet shirt!  I love those pen pockets!  Wasn't Vanguard embroidering golf shirts sent to them when they did not have a size that was proper?