Review board

[Extremepredjudice]

Can I request SM X not be on my review board? I believe he has a bias towards me (judging by his well documented actions)

[jimmydeanno]

Sure, you can request it.  Whether or not the request will be acknowledged is another question.

[lordmonar]

 
Do you really want to dig that hole for yourself?

[Extremepredjudice]

Yes. I believe his bias (and attitude) is that bad. I would rather look like some whatever than have to deal with him or his kids.

[lordmonar]

Yes. I believe his bias (and attitude) is that bad. I would rather look like some whatever than have to deal with him or his kids.

Okay..

Then you need to report the specific incidents to your commander and follow it up your chain of command.

a) Be prepared for the fall out.
b) Be sure you are 100% all the time in all things.
c) Be ready to find out that no one thinks you have a leg to stand on.....and learn to deal with it.

Good luck.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, I have documented everything. If my state would allow it I would have recorded it all (All parties have to consent, defeats the purpose if they know about it).

The only reason I haven't done anything is; I'm afraid of it damaging my CAP career. Have to draw the line somewhere, eh? I can always find something else to do.

[lordmonar]

Well....sounds good...now is the time to put up and shut up.

Like I said....keep it in house...report it and live with the fall out.....or don't report it and live with the fall out.

[Woodsy]

EP...  My young Padawan...  I fear you are too intelligent for your own good...

You and I need to hang out more often...  I was once an intelligent youth myself...  Until I found out the hard way I didn't know crap!!! 

Remember, to be a leader, you must first be a follower... (no matter how less intelligent your leaders are, or, that you think they are...)

If you continue to stay your current course...  Then all I can say is "may the force be with you..."


Ya'll still meet Monday nights, same time, same place?   If so, I'll be happy to drive up there next week and see why your squadron, that has not only won Wing, but also Region awards, is so bad...

[Extremepredjudice]

Those awards are based on numbers. We could be neo-nazis and eat puppies every monday night and still win it.

[BillB]

Puppies taste like chicken anyway.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sir, I have documented everything. If my state would allow it I would have recorded it all (All parties have to consent, defeats the purpose if they know about it).

Ah yes, THAT situation.

BTDT, paid more than $1500 in HOA fees. A year later I was right after all, and the building had to raise a $1 million special assessment. Turns out I ended up paying twice for being right.

Sometimes you need to go through the process. Maybe nothing will happen, maybe it will. But chances are, even if it does go bad, you won't get to the truth. In a year? Maybe. But not now, and not only on the information you can provide.

(For those interested the Board President was told not to run for re-election this August. Too late, too little for me though, as I'm moving by July. )

[EMT-83]

EP - you seem to have more drama in your CAP life than all the cadets I know, combined.

[Woodsy]

Puppies taste like chicken anyway.

With a $3.99 bottle of orange sauce from panda express, they're quite tasty. 

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Puppies taste like chicken anyway.

With a $3.99 bottle of orange sauce from panda express, they're quite tasty.

But dragons prefer people.  Soft on the outside, crunchy on the inside, and great with a good salsa and a beer.

[JeffDG]

But dragons prefer people.  Soft on the outside, crunchy on the inside, and great with a good salsa and a beer.

I thought people went best with a bottle Chianti and some fava beans...

[spacecommand]

When I conduct review boards, I generally have the cadet commander with me, and another senior member, if not, another higher grade cadet on the cadet staff.  Ultimately it is the Squadron commander that makes the decision to retain someone in grade.     If promotions are denied, reasons must documented why via the cadet CAPF50.

[754837]

EP - you seem to have more drama in your CAP life than all the cadets I know, combined.

I noticed the same thing...

[cadetesman]

If there is one piece of advice I can give, this is it...

Wait!

I had a problem in my squadron, and it eventually got cleared up.

Our commander had a weird requirement for promotion, but it was with good intentions. Anyways, she found out that she couldn't require it, and got rid of it. All is fine now. She was just misinformed, and it was not malevolent, just like I doubt it's malevolent in your case.

Now, I could have called IG, and group commander and what not, but I didn't, and everything was sorted out just fine. I mean, if I were to do the other stuff, I'd be in a deep, deep, deep hole. But I was patient.

If you get nothing out of this, just keep in mind that patience will help the situation 90% of the time.

[Eclipse]

Following the complaint process should never make anyone feel further threatened, but identifies further problems when people can't just move on.

Some complaints are sustained, some aren't, some never go past being filed.  Everyone is supposed to move on.

I'm not saying every time the coffee pot is left empty should involve the IG, but members should not feel intimidate to use the process.  Sometimes the mere precense of the third party spurs action.

[Ron1319]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what state you're in, you can write down things that happened.  What do you mean your state doesn't allow it?

[jeders]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what state you're in, you can write down things that happened.  What do you mean your state doesn't allow it?

I think he's referencing audio recording. Some states require notification and consent of all parties involved, others only require notification of one.

Audio recording is nice to have in court, but nowhere  near necessary. Write things down as they happened and don't worry about the recording.

[Extremepredjudice]

I can write down anything. Doesn't make it true... Recordings are harder to make up.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/telecom/electronic-surveillance-laws.aspx

[Ron1319]

If he's in a situation where his commander is saying he's making stuff up, he should probably find a new unit.

[Eclipse]

If he's in a situation where his commander is saying he's making stuff up, he should probably find a new unit.

+1 that or having to be familiar with the laws regarding tape recording covertly.

Life is not supposed to be "exciting" like this, and if you're down that path it's time to turn, either around or some other direction.  Things like this never end well.

[Extremepredjudice]

Well, you should be familiar with laws, yes? At least a basic understanding.


No one can brush you off if you have a recording.

What I can do is whip out my phone and tell them I am recording. Audio/video > a word document that can be easily made. That is my point.

[Eclipse]

EP consider the context, not the "I know better."

[abdsp51]

Informing someone you are recording and having their consent to record are two seperate things, especially when you dive into the realm of a persons rights.  You can whip out a recording device all day long and if you are told they do not wish to be recorded you will be in big trouble.  Do yourself a favor and quit being a barracks lawyer it's only going to get you in hot water especially if you are a minor.

[Extremepredjudice]

You can whip out a recording device all day long and if you are told they do not wish to be recorded you will be in big trouble.

Obviously. I need to obtain verbal consent, and to be safe, once I obtain verbal consent, have them say it for the recording device. My apologies, I wasn't clear in the post before.

Do yourself a favor and quit being a barracks lawyer it's only going to get you in hot water especially if you are a minor.

Sir, based on my clarification, I don't think I could get in hot water. Plus I don't think being a minor would change this (Clarify please, I am unclear as how my age would affect things negatively?). Yes, I agree I am a barracks lawyer. Except, there isn't a barracks. Besides, I'm not basing my ideas off of hearsay, or wrong information. I am basing them off of my research. I have a copy of Fl Statutes that I read, I also read law journals and court records. I find law fascinating. 

EP consider the context, not the "I know better."

I'm not getting what you are trying to say here, sir (clarify please?). The context is, I make a claim, SM X can refute it. If it is just me and him in the room, it is a he said, he said. If I get a recording, the truth comes out, whichever side the truth supports.

[68w20]

What concerns you about having this SM on your review board?  What is the potential negative outcome of that situation?

[Eclipse]

EP consider the context, not the "I know better."

I'm not getting what you are trying to say here, sir (clarify please?). The context is, I make a claim, SM X can refute it. If it is just me and him in the room, it is a he said, he said. If I get a recording, the truth comes out, whichever side the truth supports.

The context is that it doesn't make any difference.  If you're at the point where your relationship with your CC is so poor that you have to
resort to recording your conversations, you're done.  It might not be fair, it might not be right, but it just >is<.

I've had to deal with cleaning up this kind of stuff more times than I would like, and it never ends well - the result is a bunch of he-said / he-said accusations, the original issue is lost in people not behaving properly and not following procedures, and usually the person making the most noise is out, especially in situations where upper HQ thinks the CC is doing a good job (true or not).

In an organization like CAP, if you're not comfortable with people's word, you might as well just move on, or perhaps take a break until the
landscape changes.

And the barracks lawyering will just make it worse.  Rarely are situations like this as clear as the textbooks, and rarer still do they ever get
in front of a judge who cares.

It is what it is.  Accept that, deal, and learn from it, or move on.

In the words of an esteemed scholar "If it doesn't make you money, and it doesn't make you happy, don't do it..."

[MSG Mac]

I am a former Commander of that unit and in all the time I was a member (12 years) the Board's mandate was that if they were recommended to go before the Board, they would be promoted. In all those years only 1 cadet made such a bad impression, that he was aked to try again, after he fixed his failings. All boards required 2 out of three members to approve the recommendation.

[abdsp51]

Do yourself a favor and quit being a barracks lawyer it's only going to get you in hot water especially if you are a minor.

Sir, based on my clarification, I don't think I could get in hot water. Plus I don't think being a minor would change this (Clarify please, I am unclear as how my age would affect things negatively?). Yes, I agree I am a barracks lawyer. Except, there isn't a barracks. Besides, I'm not basing my ideas off of hearsay, or wrong information. I am basing them off of my research. I have a copy of Fl Statutes that I read, I also read law journals and court records. I find law fascinating. 

Do you hold a law degree, doubtful do you enforce the law again doubtful, you are basing off of your research and your interpretation and that is what will lead you into trouble.  You can read records journals and statutes all day long,  I doubt you are fully able to comprehend them as fully as you feel you do.  And what you read about and what is written into law is for a textbook situations and ideals and does not always encompass every situation.

As far as what does being a minor have to do with it plenty.  Are you willing to bet your parent/s salary, home, assets and overall your lively hood on your research and being a barracks lawyer?  You find the law fascinating then become a cop or a lawyer, being a barracks lawyer is nothing but trouble and I have dealt with quite a few of them to know.  You will not last long in front if a seasoned judge or attorney.

Heed the advice you are being given.

[Nathan]

Extremeprejudice, you need to realize that it doesn't always matter who is right in the situation if your intention is to progress through the cadet program. Every post I've read about you and your squadron drama indicates that you're trying to be this one-man bulldozer who steamrolls over anyone using the regulations and documentation to back you up.

The problem you may not realize yet is that the higher up you go in the program, the more your success is going to be completely based on your ability to play politics. No one is going to stop some anonymous C/A1C from going to encampment. But when a C/Lt Col wants to command a region encampment, then that's something that a LOT of people have a say in, and it may only take one or two to sink you without you even realizing it.

The fact is that once you've reached C/Col, you've probably already been threatened with getting kicked out at least once and survived. And the way you survive that sort of problem is by playing your cards when it actually matters. It means that you've bitten the bullet enough times that when you're actually in trouble, you CAN go on the warpath, and you don't win because you're right, you win because you have enough people backing you up.

I can tell you that if you keep doing what you're doing, then you WILL hit a wall in CAP where you simply won't be able to move any further, and it isn't going to be at the Spaatz. As you increase in rank, you become more and more dependent upon other people at wing, region, and national level to actually work at the level you're supposed to be working. If you don't have anyone willing to stand with you because you decided to waste all your political battles on pithy squadron issues, then you're already limiting your ability to progress in this program. It's as simple as that.

It is my suggestion that you start choosing your battles more carefully and be willing to take a hit or two for the sake of ensuring that at least one person doesn't find you to be an annoying punk who doesn't see the forest for the trees. If your squadron is really causing you so many problems (or YOU are causing so many problems at the squadron) that you really are forced to fight your battles in this way, then you need to transfer. It's either that, or accept that you are going to face increasingly heavy resistance in CAP as you promote, and whether you are "right" or not is going to matter less and less.

[Eclipse]

...also "life"...

[lordmonar]

Nathan hit the nail on the head.

Sometimes you can't win for loosing.  That is you may be 100% correct and do everything right.....but in the end you are going to still be in that unit.  You are still going to have to deal with people from that unit....and you will still be a cadet in that unit.

That means you are going to be dependant on their good opinion of you.  Later the opinion of group and wing will also have a direct impact on you.

I'm not telling you to drop this issue.  I am telling you that you will have to live with the consequences of your actions.  As Eclipse said...this is a Life lesson....not just a CAP lesson.

Sometimes the best course of action is to just "out live the bastards" and not make too many waves.  Choosing your battles and knowing when to stand your ground or when to live to fight another day is a very difficult lesson to learn.

The problem with taking your issues to CAPTALK is that almost none of us are in a posiiton to really help you.  YOU need to seek the advice of someone closer to the situation.  Someone who knows your unit, your group, your wing and can better help guide you through the politics of YOUR AOR.

MSgt MAC may be a better source to seek advice (off line, via PM, E-mail, or telephone).  You can always seek advice from someone in your AOR that you trust or respect. (this is not the same as taking up the chain and making accusations).

Beyond that there is not a lot of help we can give.

My read of the situation is that you are setting yourself up for a fall.  I would suggest you go slowly, go respectfully and not confontationally.   Ask to speak to your DCC and CC and voice your concerns......not demand your rights, or accuse them of not knowing how to do things.....but respectfully telling them how you see the situation ans asking for advice on how to correct the situation.  Forget about the idea that you need to record your conversations....that in and of itself sets the tone that you are trying to catch them at something.

If they really are doing you wrong.......there are plenty of people who see it too....or will see it once it has beenn brought to their attention.  But you may never see what happens when group or wing takes action.  It is not like you will ever see the letter of counseling your commander might recreive or be able to sit in when the Wing CP Director chews him out and corrects his mistakes.

I have seen that too often, even in grown up life, where someone makes a complaint about a co-worker or boss and then complains that "nothing is ever done" because they don't see what is going on behind closed doors.

So.....my advice to you......is to a) keep your nose clean....don't give them something real they can punish you for.  b) Seek a mentor in your local AOR who knows the lay of the land and can guide you through your local political mine field.  c) Talk......TALK to your immediate leadership.  Ask them what they want from you, let them know, respectfully how you feel. d) Learn and live.....this is NOT going to be the first time you disagree with the way your bosses treat you!  Right now it is just CAP....some day it will be your JOB that is on the line....so learning how and when to fight the good fight will serve you well through out your life.

[Woodsy]

I hope you take all of this excellent advice to heart EP.  Live to fight another day, this hill is not worth taking.


If you continue to persist, I will be forced to post the pictures of you dumpster diving for that practice beacon...   

[Nathan]

I'm speaking from experience, having been a cadet who knew the "right way" of doing things and who used the regs to bludgeon everyone around me into submission.

Luckily, I stopped that behavior before it was too late. What I didn't realize then was that the senior members and senior cadets I was up against weren't bothering to play politics back at me because the issues I was attacking really weren't that important. I thought I was engaged in much more dramatic battles than I was, and it wasn't easy to convince me that my opponents really weren't taking me seriously enough to put up much of a fight.

I eventually realized that and stopped trying to be RIGHT all the time, and realized that the people around me still wanted to run the program in the best way possible, but just had a different idea of how to accomplish that. And when something important DID come up, and the senior members against me decided to start playing political hardball, I had enough credibility left to get help from people that could actually protect me. That wouldn't have been true if I had continued trying to be an island fortress, daring anyone to try to beat me in a barracks-lawyer battle.

[abdsp51]

I hope he realizes that the littlest things and especially attitude can bar testing for the Spaatz achievement.

[AngelWings]

All of the advice here is great. Listen to it EP. If you don't, your only chance after this to learn not to be a barracks lawyor is when you get kicked in the ass and lose any chance you have at acheiving what you want in CAP. I've seen it with my own two eyes, and trust me, it is not a beautiful sight to watch a grown man act like a child and lose his composure when he is told to leave a squadron or is stripped of anything he has in CAP.

[Extremepredjudice]

If you continue to persist, I will be forced to post the pictures of you dumpster diving for that practice beacon...   

Haha 


You know I didn't start this stuff, I ignored it for about a year. I sat down, shut up, paid attention, went to every event I could, and now I am fed up with their BS. I made my uniform the best I could, and did the best I could, in drill, attendance, participation, anything I could to help out. And it got me jack****.

As you increase in rank, you become more and more dependent upon other people at wing, region, and national level to actually work at the level you're supposed to be working.

We have a C/Maj. and a C/Lt. Col. who aren't involved outside of the squadron level. 

Ask to speak to your DCC and CC and voice your concerns

I did this. So did my parents when they blew me off. They fed my parents a total line of BS.

TALK to your immediate leadership.

I have spoken to my immediate supervisor. He didn't do anything.

I hope he realizes that the littlest things and especially attitude can bar testing for the Spaatz achievement.

Yes sir, I know.

keep your nose clean

Yes sir, I have been. This is why I wanted to record conversations. They can't claim I did something.

Learn and live

Yes sir. I didn't have very good bosses at my first job.

Seek a mentor in your local AOR who knows the lay of the land and can guide you through your local political mine field

The closest person I trust is one unit over. Obviously you can't know the "day to day" operations from just a few visits.

[Eclipse]

Missed the point entirely...

[Extremepredjudice]

Missed the point entirely...

? Which part and how, sir? I am listening, and I am open minded. Believe it or not.

[lordmonar]

Well then.

Your options are simple then.

a) Report the situation up the chain of command or to the IG and let the cards fall where they may.
b) Live with it.
c) Quit.

There is nothing left to say.  Good luck. 

[Ron1319]

Err.. if the littlest things could bar one from taking a Spaatz exam then I'm quite sure many of us wouldn't have taken it. 

Let's just review this thread, however.  The original post was asking if you could request that a senior member not be on a review board.  You were told that you could request whatever you wanted, but it was up to the commander to trust whoever he trusted to be on your board.  What you didn't say was, "I have been held up from promotions by one senior in particular and the reasons he stated were, a), b), c).  I believe those reasons are not accurate because I have done A, B, C."  If you were to simply provide evidence to the unit commander (who has 100% of the authority to promote you or not) showing that you believed you were eligible for promotion, you would be in a much better position to be promoted rather than trying to blame one senior who is likely trying to help.

[Nathan]

Err.. if the littlest things could bar one from taking a Spaatz exam then I'm quite sure many of us wouldn't have taken it.

Ha, you mean like 99.5% of all cadets?

Seriously, since there is an approval process for each promotion, and a longer, more involved approval process for the Spaatz, then it is safe to say that yes, there are a significant number of people who probably have difficulty getting to the Spaatz because they pissed off the wrong people and got stalled when trying to get approval. It's why there is an approval process.

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.