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stillamarine
Seasoned Member

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Unit: SER-AL-001

« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2012, 09:34:19 AM »

The "don't call me sir, I work for a living" is not just an old wives' tale.  I have never met an NCO of any stripe (ouch), outside of USAF/USMC/USCG(?) basic training who wanted to be addressed as "sir/ma'am."

The way I always learned it:

Commissioned officers: Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Lieutenant") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Warrant officers (which, of course, the USAF doesn't have and they look like lieutenants until you're close enough to see the little squares on their bars): Rank first greeting (ie, "Good afternoon, Warrant Officer/Chief Warrant Officer" and/or "Mr/Ms/Miss Jones") and "sir/ma'am" thereafter.

Senior NCO's, depending on service:

USAF
"Chief Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Chief" thereafter (if the CMSgt is good with it).
"Senior Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
"Master Sergeant" at first greeting, "Sergeant" thereafter.
The same goes for the lower NCO grades (Technical Sergeant, Staff Sergeant).
"Senior Airman"...I have tended to use the full title; I'm personally not comfortable with just calling a SrA "airman."
A1C and below: "Airman."

USA:
Command Sergeant Major - full title
First Sergeant - full title
Sergeant Major - full title
Master Sergeant and below - full title first time, "Sergeant" thereafter.
Corporal and below - full title

USMC:
Much the same as for the Army.
Gunnery Sergeant - full title, unless the GySgt allows you to call him/her "Gunny."
Lance Corporal - full title

USN/USCG:
Here my knowledge fails, because I don't know the myriad of ratings in the Navy and Coast Guard.
So I just do the following:
Master Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Master Chief"
Senior Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Senior Chief"
Chief Petty Officer - full title/"Chief"
Petty Officers - "Petty Officer"
Seamen - "Seaman," "Constructionman," "Fireman," "Hospitalman," "Airman"...though I've found that most are good with "Seaman."

Interesting enough though Marine Corps regulations state a Lance Corporal can be referred to as Corporal. You will never see a Marine do that. I didn't even know myself until an AF female pointed it out to me after I constantly corrected her while I was stationed at the Marine Corps Airfield Arrival and Departure Control Group on Kadena AB. I got to learn a lot about AF customs then.
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Tim Gardiner, 2nd LT, CAP

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USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
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stillamarine
Seasoned Member

Posts: 421
Unit: SER-AL-001

« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2012, 09:39:48 AM »

That said, I would make every attempt to address an active / reserve / guard NCO by the customs / regulations of their service. Now if I could ever get my head around the Navy enlisted structure...

Most are Petty Officers and Chiefs, though internally they like to refer to each other by their MOS.

How do you tell the difference between a Chief and a Senior Chief?

They will tell you...

I remember when I was a cadet in the late 80s doing some kind of fund raiser in front of the exchange. I see this navy guy walking up in khakis and he's got shiny stuff on his collars. So I saluted and he told me he was just a chief. He got a good laugh out of it. He said the way to tell between the two when they are in khakis is the shoes. I believe it's chiefs that wear brown shoes and officers wear black. Or the other way around I forgets.
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Tim Gardiner, 2nd LT, CAP

ALWG Recruiting and Retention Officer

USMC AD 1996-2001
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CyBorg
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Posts: 2,875
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2012, 10:23:42 AM »

^^I thought brown shoes indicated a naval aviator?

My experience and practice differ. Also, a lot depends on who is senior to whom when the addressing occurs.

Your experience with Soldiers is undoubtedly greater than mine.  My dad was in the Army, back when the Specialist grades were first introduced - they went clear up to Specialist 9.  He'd gone from National Guard to active Army.  He was a Corporal in the Guard but lost his stripes and had to put on Specialist 4.  He said that back then the Specialist grades were to be kind of like an enlisted version of warrant officers.  Now promotion to Corporal is the exception rather than the rule.  He said that he was rarely addressed as "Specialist 4," it was usually just "Spec 4."

All the different ratings in the USN/USCG (though I did learn some as a CG Auxiliarist) are a mystery to me so I just address them by what's on their sleeve, and of course commissioned/warrant officers as "Sir/Ma'am."  I know that just because of what's on my shoulders as a CAP Captain I visually (not legally) "outrank" O-1, O-2 and WO/CWO's, but I salute all commissioned/warrants regardless of grade.  They're military officers and I'm a CAP officer.  They did a lot more to earn what they've got than I did.

So how does this relate to addressing CAP NCO's?  A former squadron had a retired Army SFC Drill Sergeant join, and he wanted to keep his NCO grade, so he came in as a CAP MSgt.  Even with all his experience from his Army days, he still had to catch himself now and again on the various levels of sergeant in AF/CAP grade, especially given that they've changed both title and insignia over the years.

I always thought it was a bad idea to bin Buck Sergeant and to give E-2, E-3 and E-4 back the silver star in the centre of their stripes...going from SrA to "buck" may be a lateral promotion within grade, but it was important symbolically, in that it was a clear transition to the NCO corps.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2012, 02:06:21 PM »

Brown shoes used to be a distinguishing feature between the chiefs and officers in the aviation community (brown shoes), and those not (black shoes). That line has blurred significantly over the years. I don't have the time right now to look it up, but I think there is some overlap now.

What do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Non-rates (E-3 and below) are called Seaman, Airman, etc., depending on the color of the stripes on their dress uniforms. In working uniforms, it's a guess. They will let you know soon enough if you get it wrong.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2012, 02:11:28 PM »

What do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Maybe it's anomalous to the RTC, but in the last 4-5 years, we've seen PO's, especially, referring to each other as much by rate (CM1, HC3, etc.), as by
grade, though on the recruit side it is definitely "Petty Officer", "Chief Petty Officer" (etc.).
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SarDragon
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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »

What do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Maybe it's anomalous to the RTC, but in the last 4-5 years, we've seen PO's, especially, referring to each other as much by rate (CM1, HC3, etc.), as by
grade, though on the recruit side it is definitely "Petty Officer", "Chief Petty Officer" (etc.).

That's pretty much an internal thing. It's grown over the past few years, and is usually among folks who know each other. For us outsiders, my previous post is more applicable. The folks in my shop might call me AT1, but out and about on the base, I'm more likely to hear Petty Officer Bowles.
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Dave Bowles
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krnlpanick
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Yet Another Developer's Blog
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2012, 03:09:48 PM »

Just found this - thought it may be helpful? (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFPAM34-1202.pdf)

Quote from: AFPAM34-1202
Table A3.6.  TITLES AND FORMS OF ADDRESS
* Use the full rank in the address element
** For the Army and Air Force: In salutations and place cards, the base rank is used, e.g., Sergeant Doe,
not Staff Sergeant Doe. The specific rank of Marine Noncommissioned officers is customarily used on
invitations and place cards as well as salutations.
*** In conversation use Chief as appropriate

Noncommissioned Officers (Air Force, Army, Marine Corps)
Envelope: 
official: Full rank Scott A. Doe, USAF*
social: Full rank* (and Mrs.) Scott A. Doe

Salutation:
Dear Sergeant** (and Mrs.) Doe: 
or for a woman NCO
Dear Sergeant** Doe (and Mr. Doe): 

Complimentary Close:
Sincerely,

Invitation:
Full rank** (and Mrs.) Doe

Place Card:
Sergeant**Doe
Mrs. (Mr.) Doe

Introductions:
(Full rank) Doe and (Mrs. (Mr.) Doe)

Conversation:
Base Rank*** Doe
Mrs. (Mr.) Doe
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2nd Lt. Christopher A. Schmidt, CAP
lordmonar
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2012, 04:39:15 PM »

What do you call a Sailor, besides Sailor? Mostly petty officer or chief for the NCOs. Getting into specific ratings isn't done on a regular basis outside the work centers, except perhaps at stuff like formal presentations.

Maybe it's anomalous to the RTC, but in the last 4-5 years, we've seen PO's, especially, referring to each other as much by rate (CM1, HC3, etc.), as by
grade, though on the recruit side it is definitely "Petty Officer", "Chief Petty Officer" (etc.).

That's pretty much an internal thing. It's grown over the past few years, and is usually among folks who know each other. For us outsiders, my previous post is more applicable. The folks in my shop might call me AT1, but out and about on the base, I'm more likely to hear Petty Officer Bowles.
I worked a joint assignment a few years back with some navy type.  Between themselves they would say "aviation mate" and "FC Mate" but us USAF types just called them Seaman 1st, PO 2nd, Chief.  They did not expect us to be able to read their insignia....so the accepted the generic titles from us.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, MSgt, CAP
Nellis Composite Squadron
LTCTerry
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« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2012, 10:45:46 AM »

Old thread, but just in case someone actually reads this far:

Navy Shoes

"Brown shoes" are for aviators or in aviation rates, regardless of officer/chief status. Sometime in the 60s (?) brown shoes went away but came back in the mid/late 80s.

"Black shoes" are worn by anyone not in aviation.

Break, break...

Back when I was a very young guy it was quite common for USAF officers to address USAF NCOs by their first name. As a Navy junior and later an Army officer than just didn't work for me.

TP
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SarDragon
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« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2012, 06:03:45 PM »

According to the latest USN Uni reg, brown shoes are optional for anyone, E-7 and above, wearing the khaki uniform.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2012, 03:34:36 PM »

Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?
As someone who has been in the active duty Air Force, Air National Guard and currently in the Air Force Reserve, I can tell you that sir and ma'am are not only appropriate to use with NCOs (and even airmen), but are used frequently. The Army may be different, but CAP is a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force so we should use those customs used by the Air Force, unless otherwise stated by CAP regulations.
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NorCal21
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« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2012, 03:07:39 AM »

Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

For instance, you wouldn't refer to a lance corporal as corporal. Entirely different rank. You refer to a first sergeant as sergeant and let's just you'll be corrected. Now, CAP or the AF may have their own courtesy in this area, and that's why I said you should check first.

You call a Sailor or Coastie who's a Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class (BM3) as BM or boatswain's mate... he'll ignore you or correct you.

Officer ranks can be shortened to the main rank such as a 2LT or 1LT to just lieutenant.
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NorCal21
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« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2012, 03:13:06 AM »

Sergeant, Chief, sir or ma'am are all acceptable terms of address.

If in doubt.....ask.
But.... They aren't sirs or ma'ams? Why do SM NCOs get Sir or Ma'am as a term of address, but all other NCOs don't?
As someone who has been in the active duty Air Force, Air National Guard and currently in the Air Force Reserve, I can tell you that sir and ma'am are not only appropriate to use with NCOs (and even airmen), but are used frequently. The Army may be different, but CAP is a civilian auxiliary of the Air Force so we should use those customs used by the Air Force, unless otherwise stated by CAP regulations.

Well my active duty experience with the AF is limited to a one time convoy to Seymour Johnson AFB in NC. However, I can tell you from first hand experience that in the Marines (I'm a former Marine), Navy, Army and Coast Guard you DO NOT EVER refer to any enlisted person as sir or ma'am. Its incorrect by customs and courtesies. You refer to them by their rank such as "yes staff sergeant" or "no chief." Referring to an enlisted person by sir or ma'am is akin to calling them an officer.

Also, in the Marines you never refer to an officer by their rank unless you need to differentiate between multiple officers at which point you call them by name and rank only. You never refer to an officer by rank alone.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2012, 04:04:45 AM »

Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

For instance, you wouldn't refer to a lance corporal as corporal. Entirely different rank. You refer to a first sergeant as sergeant and let's just you'll be corrected. Now, CAP or the AF may have their own courtesy in this area, and that's why I said you should check first.

You call a Sailor or Coastie who's a Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class (BM3) as BM or boatswain's mate... he'll ignore you or correct you.

Officer ranks can be shortened to the main rank such as a 2LT or 1LT to just lieutenant.
As an AD USAF SNCO who worked a joint assignment with all four services....you will find that really they don't care.  Once in a blue moon you will get someone who may say something...but really.....I would not know a BM3 from an ET3....they are all Seaman or Petty Officer to us USAF guys.   

Now....if Staff Sergeant John Hardcore tells you to call him "Staff Sergeant" you do it....other then that...we are the USAF auxillary....let's just follow the USAF tradtions and let the other services take care of themselves.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, MSgt, CAP
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« Reply #54 on: December 29, 2012, 12:53:55 PM »

I was stationed at the Marine Corps Airfield Arrival and Departure Control Group on Kadena AB. I got to learn a lot about AF customs then.

Every Sunday I use to take the bus from McTureous to Kadena for a steak dinner and a sundae. Great times for a teenager   ;)
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LGM30GMCC
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« Reply #55 on: December 29, 2012, 04:23:02 PM »

Uh, you'd better make sure they're all right with that. Coming out the Marines and working with Navy, you call anyone a sergeant who's a staff-, first-, gunnery-, etc they will rip you a knew one right quick. Even Army personnel will be sure to correct you very quickly. I've seen it.

For instance, you wouldn't refer to a lance corporal as corporal. Entirely different rank. You refer to a first sergeant as sergeant and let's just you'll be corrected. Now, CAP or the AF may have their own courtesy in this area, and that's why I said you should check first.

You call a Sailor or Coastie who's a Boatswain's Mate 3rd Class (BM3) as BM or boatswain's mate... he'll ignore you or correct you.

Officer ranks can be shortened to the main rank such as a 2LT or 1LT to just lieutenant.
As an AD USAF SNCO who worked a joint assignment with all four services....you will find that really they don't care.  Once in a blue moon you will get someone who may say something...but really.....I would not know a BM3 from an ET3....they are all Seaman or Petty Officer to us USAF guys.   

Now....if Staff Sergeant John Hardcore tells you to call him "Staff Sergeant" you do it....other then that...we are the USAF auxillary....let's just follow the USAF tradtions and let the other services take care of themselves.

If Staff Sergeant Hardcore is growling at me to call him 'Staff Sergeant' I'm likely to start growling at him to call every lieutenant by their full rank. (Assuming we're talking USAF Staff Sergeant) If it's a non-USAF guy who has gone into the CAP NCO 'corps' (hard to call it that, since it has no real organization/purpose right now) I would probably educate him on the USAF culture a bit. Culturally the USAF seems to be more relaxed about this sort of thing. Hard to say exactly why that is, maybe it's just how our tradition has formed. Maybe it's because our primary operators are overwhelmingly officers who work closely with small groups of NCOs and it's just formed a more relaxed atmosphere.
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Nuke52
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« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2012, 06:20:29 PM »

Now....if Staff Sergeant John Hardcore tells you to call him "Staff Sergeant" you do it....other then that...we are the USAF auxillary....let's just follow the USAF tradtions and let the other services take care of themselves.
If Staff Sergeant Hardcore is growling at me to call him 'Staff Sergeant' I'm likely to start growling at him to call every lieutenant by their full rank. (Assuming we're talking USAF Staff Sergeant) If it's a non-USAF guy who has gone into the CAP NCO 'corps' (hard to call it that, since it has no real organization/purpose right now) I would probably educate him on the USAF culture a bit. Culturally the USAF seems to be more relaxed about this sort of thing. Hard to say exactly why that is, maybe it's just how our tradition has formed. Maybe it's because our primary operators are overwhelmingly officers who work closely with small groups of NCOs and it's just formed a more relaxed atmosphere.
Staff Sergeant Hardcore had better not be growling at me about anything, or he's in for an attitude adjustment tout de suite.  If he "tells me to" call him staff sergeant, he'll get a "thanks for your input, sergeant" or maybe an "I'll take that into consideration, John."  Politely requesting is another thing, but calling an AF staff sergeant "sergeant" is a respectful term of address, one I don't intend to deviate from.

I get that the other services have different traditions/courtesies, and I call them Top (Shirt), Sergeant Major, Master Chief, as appropriate, but when that person joins CAP, they're following our traditions now, and when they're wearing our uniform, it's Sergeant or Chief.

CAP is the AF Auxiliary and we ought to follow AF traditions whenever possible.
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Lt Col
Wilson Awd
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« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2012, 09:32:09 PM »

When I was inthe Navy you called someone either Petty Officer or Chief.  E3 and below Airman, Fireman etc.
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NorCal21
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« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2012, 05:51:39 AM »

Politely requesting is another thing, but calling an AF staff sergeant "sergeant" is a respectful term of address, one I don't intend to deviate from.

I get that the other services have different traditions/courtesies, and I call them Top (Shirt), Sergeant Major, Master Chief, as appropriate, but when that person joins CAP, they're following our traditions now, and when they're wearing our uniform, it's Sergeant or Chief.

CAP is the AF Auxiliary and we ought to follow AF traditions whenever possible.

In actuality, referring to someone who's more than a sergeant as just sergeant is an informal thing. It is accepted in the AF as a matter of custom, but you would refer to a master sergeant as just that if you are being formal or you don't know the person. That comes from a friend who's a staff sergeant at Kunsan AB.

I refer to enlisted personnel by their full title at all times unless they tell me to do otherwise. I refer to officers higher in grade as sir, and lower in grade as Mr. usually or by their title. Officer titles are entirely different than enlisted when it comes to addressing them in familiar terms. While there are some people who have requested a more familiar title such as just sergeant, anyone who would come into my squadron as a transfer or new member would always be addressed by their full rank until they say otherwise. Any less is disrespectful. I'm not their friend or their drinking buddy.

CAP is made up of veterans of all seven uniformed services, as well as people who've never served. It is not the AF. Educating people to AF customs and courtesies is one thing, but absolutely refusing to abide by a person's request or the tradition they are used to is not right.

So to close, while it may be customary in the AF to refer to all types of sergeants as sergeant as an informal title, there is nothing wrong, nor prohibited anywhere, from that person requested that they be addressed by their entire title. Put it this way... you are less likely to upset an enlisted person if you just refer to them by their entire title rather than taking the liberty of referring to them by a title that denotes some sense of familiarity or informality that they would not approve of. Give THEM the opportunity to say how they want to be addressed.
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Nuke52
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« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2012, 11:00:22 AM »

Politely requesting is another thing, but calling an AF staff sergeant "sergeant" is a respectful term of address, one I don't intend to deviate from.

I get that the other services have different traditions/courtesies, and I call them Top (Shirt), Sergeant Major, Master Chief, as appropriate, but when that person joins CAP, they're following our traditions now, and when they're wearing our uniform, it's Sergeant or Chief.

CAP is the AF Auxiliary and we ought to follow AF traditions whenever possible.

I didn't want to get into one of these line-by-line, nitpicking-how-you're-wrong things, which makes me look like I think I'm some kind of know-it-all, so I had considered responding to your post simply by dropping the issue with a "YMMV," but that would be a missed opportunity to educate a fellow CAP member and a disservice to anyone who happened to read your post and think it correct.  So, here goes...  First off, it's apparent a good read-through of CAPP 151 is necessary--it even extols for us in black and white the virtues of following the customs & courtesies of our "parent service."  While it does not address (pun intended) SM NCOs, one can infer from its treatment of cadet NCO grades and SM lieutenants and colonels how a sergeant of any stripe (!) should be addressed.  For more advanced reading, I refer you to AFPAM 34-1202, AF Protocol.

In actuality, referring to someone who's more than a sergeant as just sergeant is an informal thing. It is accepted in the AF as a matter of custom, but you would refer to a master sergeant as just that if you are being formal or you don't know the person. That comes from a friend who's a staff sergeant at Kunsan AB.

Wrong.  It is not an informal thing, it is the correct way to address an NCO in the AF.  Other than perhaps in initial training, you do not hear AF personnel running around saying, "yes, Technical Sergeant; no, Technical Sergeant; this airman does not know, Technical Sergeant, but he will find out; etc....," and certainly no officers are saying that to their enlisted professionals.  Perhaps you misunderstood what your SSgt friend was saying or perhaps he/she misunderstood your question. 

I refer to enlisted personnel by their full title at all times unless they tell me to do otherwise. I refer to officers higher in grade as sir, and lower in grade as Mr. usually or by their title. Officer titles are entirely different than enlisted when it comes to addressing them in familiar terms. While there are some people who have requested a more familiar title such as just sergeant, anyone who would come into my squadron as a transfer or new member would always be addressed by their full rank until they say otherwise. Any less is disrespectful. I'm not their friend or their drinking buddy.
You do what you think you need to, just be advised that it's wrong.  I get the feeling you're coming from a Navy background here, so it's understandable you'd get some things confused, but calling an AF (and thus, CAP) officer who's lower in grade than you "Mr." is flat-out wrong and if he knew you were doing it out of anything other than ignorance, he would be insulted.  I do not speak to SMSgts with "thank you, Senior Master Sergeant Smith" (nor do I use "Senior"), I also would NEVER say, "1st Lieutenant Jones, please hand me that binder," "Sergeant" and "Lieutenant," respectively, are correct--NOT informal.  And I can assure you that I am a drinking buddy of neither of them...

CAP is made up of veterans of all seven uniformed services, as well as people who've never served. It is not the AF. Educating people to AF customs and courtesies is one thing, but absolutely refusing to abide by a person's request or the tradition they are used to is not right.
Again, no.  Whether a member is a veteran of another service is completely irrelevant for anything other than what they get to put on their uniform.  You're right in that CAP is not the AF--it is, however, the AF auxiliary, and again, I refer you to CAPP 151, which tells us how important it is to follow "AF-style protocol."  "Refusing to abide by the tradition someone is used to" is completely appropriate if they're coming into the AF auxiliary expecting to be treated with sea service protocol.  That's not how it works.  If they're expecting you to call them "Sergeant First Class Jones" in CAP, I think there's probably a different organization somewhere that will better suit their needs--and ours.  In a (hypothetical) other organization I (don't really) belong to, I am accorded the honorific "Chief Grand Poobah of Poobahliciousness."  I join CAP and then expect the same tradition I'm used to.  Kosher, right?  no.

So to close, while it may be customary in the AF to refer to all types of sergeants as sergeant as an informal title, there is nothing wrong, nor prohibited anywhere, from that person requested that they be addressed by their entire title. Put it this way... you are less likely to upset an enlisted person if you just refer to them by their entire title rather than taking the liberty of referring to them by a title that denotes some sense of familiarity or informality that they would not approve of. Give THEM the opportunity to say how they want to be addressed.
One last time, it is NOT an informal title.  It is the prescribed term of address in both CAPP 151 and AFPAM 34-1202.  Using the prescribed terms is NOT "taking liberty," nor does it denote any sense of "familiarity or informality," and I couldn't care less if they don't approve of it.  If a CAP enlisted member is going to be "upset" by someone following our (prescribed-in-official-documents) customs, again, they're probably a better fit for some other outfit.  As to giving them the courtesy of how they want to be addressed, absolutely:  I'll honor their request whether it's "John, Johnathon, Johnny, Doc, Red, Blitz, whatever"; but what's in the CAPP 151/AFPAM 34-1202 is non-negotiable. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 02:27:01 PM by Nuke52 » Logged
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