DI

[bflynn]

Yes, that's the point I've been trying to say.  But the question isn't really just about drill, it's about the bigger picture.  There are those who disagree with how much military there is in paramilitary.  When you push for things that others disagree with, you harm unit cohesiveness.  I don't get the sense that people recognize that.

There is a fine line between leading and following.  You can only insist on a little more than the volunteers want to do - any more and you're destroying volunteer energy.

What I'm hearing is that some leaders don't recognzie that.

I disagree.....I think most sucessful leaders in CAP understand that very well.  We get it rubbed into our faces all the time.
Everytime we try to make a rule change (add IS100 requirments to ES, Safety Currency).  Just tyring to get a uniform change......heck defining the bloody thing.  Good thing RM is not on this thread!  He would be blowing a gasket right now any.

Well....all I have got to say....is that the one thing that makes CAP different then the military.....is that you can always quit CAP anytime you choose.  In that way it makes it almost exactly like any other volunteer organisation and most employment situations.  You don't like your job at Mc Donalds......well then quit and go work for someone else. 

Now I am all for making nice to our volunteers....but there is a line there somewhere.   There is a point where we just have to say......sorry you don't want to drill/do safety training/get your IS 400/wear your unifrom properly.......please go play somewhere else.

I think we're saying the same thing - I say some leaders don't get it, you say successful commanders do.  I agree on both counts.

There is a line in there, it's a balancing act.  Which is why I point out that there's disagreement about how much military there is in paramilitary; that is also part of the balancing act.  That military balance point is different between the cadet and SM programs.

This might be obvious to some, but I'm sure there are also others who need to hear it explicitly.

[Eclipse]

That military balance point is different between the cadet and SM programs.

It's not supposed to be.

That issue is one of the reasons that many senior members lose credibility in the eyes of both cadets and people outside the organization.
This idea that some parts of the program "don't apply to me..." is an "You can't, I won't, you can't make me attitude." that exists in some members
who think they "know better" and that some how their baseline contribution to the program (i.e. you're lucky I showed up at all) as a "Volunteer" trumps their need to do anything but what they feel like.

Most members join to be part of something larger than themselves, with expectations that are higher then their regular grind.  People who can't be bothered or are "above" the paramilitary aspects degrade both the experience, and the effectiveness for everyone, and then wear it as a badge to be proud of.

[bflynn]

That military balance point is different between the cadet and SM programs.

It's not supposed to be.

That issue is one of the reasons that many senior members lose credibility in the eyes of both cadets and people outside the organization.

Well, the reality is that it IS.  When we have a problem, we need to deal with reality, not a wish of what we want.

I don't think CAP loses credibility with others outside CAP because we're not military enough...they don't care if we're military or not.  We lose credibility because we don't perform the missions well enough or because we don't act professionally as pilots.  We lose credibility when people are playing in an exercise and don't react to an actual emergency happening right under them.  We lose credibility when people get too militant and try to regulate the public.

The public in general doesn't like military ordering them around.  I think that extends to our senior members.

[Eclipse]

There are plenty of other worthwhile organizations that don't have a paramilitary structure that can use your help.

Joining a book club and then complaining about all the discussions about reading serves no one.

[bflynn]

You're mistaking my intent - I'm not complaining, I'm disagreeing with you.  If the general membership wanted us to be more military, we would be.  They don't and we aren't.  That makes what is "supposed to be" just the wish of a few people.

I'm relatively happy with what CAP is and what I can do for us...I'm not going anywhere. 

[Pylon]

I don't think CAP loses credibility with others outside CAP because we're not military enough...they don't care if we're military or not.

I disagree.  CAP members are frequently on military installations and around military personnel for meetings (at units that meet on bases), professional development events, encampments, mil orientation flights, air shows, parades and memorial services, and other public events.  If CAP members are walking around in uniform and don't understand basic military bearing, basic military discipline, basic military drill -- it shows and reflects upon the whole organization, in a poor way. 

It doesn't matter if some members "want to" or not.  It is still a part of doing the job right.  There are plenty of people who don't want to do a lot of things, and that may very well make them a bad fit for the organization or their particular duty.  I may not want to do safety briefings all the time, but if I want to be a part of Civil Air Patrol I suck it up and do them.  If you don't want to learn basic drill and military customs, don't wear the military style uniforms and don't participate in cadet programs.

Examples of situations that understanding basic military drill and customs would matter, and having basic discipline would instill the members to act accordingly:
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base and walk past the base colors -- should they salute?  Do they know if they should? 
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a parade and a military color guard processes past -- do they stand at attention?  do they salute?  what if there are a group of SM's standing around, then what?
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base for a CAP event, outside.  They hear a loud bugle call.  Military personnel stop what they're doing.  Can they identify the bugle call?  Do they know what they should do?  Do they know they're supposed to stand at attention and salute the direction of the music or a visible American flag?  Do they know which bugle call to hold the salute and POA until?  Do they know what to do if there's a group? 
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a sporting event for a recruiting booth, alongside military personnel.  The national anthem plays.  Do the SM's know what to do?  What about when the Air Force song plays?  Or another branch's hymn?  Can they recognize the tune and know that it's a service song and not just a patriotic organ ditty?

These are all examples of situations where, if CAP members took the time to learn basic knowledge in military discipline and drill, they would react and behave in a manner which credits Civil Air Patrol's image and credibility as an organization.  On the other hand, these are also situations where CAP members who don't know what to do, or who do the wrong thing, can quickly bring discredit upon the organization.

Contrary to what you suggest, it is not just mission capabilities which matter.

[bflynn]

I think we just went through everything that you just wrote.

The simple truth is, CAP (SMs) cannot be a more military organization because members won't support it.  I suppose everyone else could just get up and go somewhere else.  But who would do the work then?

[krnlpanick]

CAP members are expected to follow the
traditions, standards, customs, and courtesies
agreed to and accepted by the USAF and CAP.
To do so reflects pride in CAP and the level of
professionalism CAP demonstrates to its
customers, to its Air Force partners, and to the
communities where its members serve and live.
Customs and courtesies show mutual respect
and create a sense of fraternity among
military members and CAP members.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Customs_DFE2708A12EA7.pdf

[bflynn]

Yes, yes.  But the point is about the depth of military, not the framework of having it.

Don't misunderstand my analysis for a complaint.

Then again, if CAP doesn't meet your desired depth for military involvement, there are other organizations that do - you're welcome to join them to satisfy yourself   


I think I'm done - I think we've exhausted this unless anyone else has something new to add.

[jeders]

The simple truth is, CAP (SMs) cannot be a more military organization because members won't support it.  I suppose everyone else could just get up and go somewhere else.  But who would do the work then?

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true. Maybe members of your flying club squadron won't support it, but that doesn't make it true everywhere. Maybe the members of the OPs squadron will absolutely support it.

[RogueLeader]

Yes, yes.  But the point is about the depth of military, not the framework of having it.

Don't misunderstand my analysis for a complaint.

Then again, if CAP doesn't meet your desired depth for military involvement, there are other organizations that do - you're welcome to join them to satisfy yourself   


I think I'm done - I think we've exhausted this unless anyone else has something new to add.

He's a Marine. I know that several are former military, so we get that or we had it.

[Eclipse]

You're mistaking my intent - I'm not complaining, I'm disagreeing with you.  If the general membership wanted us to be more military, we would be.  They don't and we aren't.  That makes what is "supposed to be" just the wish of a few people.

I'm relatively happy with what CAP is and what I can do for us...I'm not going anywhere.

Why do you assume when you say something incorrect that we are misunderstanding you?

We know exactly what you're saying, it's wrong, and part of the problem.  Whether >you< are comfortable with your contribution is only part of the issue.  Your contribution also has to be aligned with the commander and others in authority for it to be of full value.  This idea of self actualization being the end of the conversation is also part of the problem.

You have no idea what the membership will support outside your personal scope, but many of us here who are fully engaged in all facets of the organization and have relevant experience in its leadership, know all too well what the real challenges and problems are, and the idea that members can pick and choose what they want to adhere to and discard the rest may not be the #1 problem, but it's in the top 5.

[krnlpanick]

This is not a problem unique to Civil Air Patrol - this is a problem for just about every volunteer scenario I have been involved with. Eclipse is right on here, IMHO as someone with a lot of experience in Volunteer Orgs but new to CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Examples of situations that understanding basic military drill and customs would matter, and having basic discipline would instill the members to act accordingly:
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base and walk past the base colors -- should they salute?  Do they know if they should? 
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a parade and a military color guard processes past -- do they stand at attention?  do they salute?  what if there are a group of SM's standing around, then what?
--CAP members (in uniform) are on base for a CAP event, outside.  They hear a loud bugle call.  Military personnel stop what they're doing.  Can they identify the bugle call?  Do they know what they should do?  Do they know they're supposed to stand at attention and salute the direction of the music or a visible American flag?  Do they know which bugle call to hold the salute and POA until?  Do they know what to do if there's a group? 
--CAP members (in uniform) are at a sporting event for a recruiting booth, alongside military personnel.  The national anthem plays.  Do the SM's know what to do?  What about when the Air Force song plays?  Or another branch's hymn?  Can they recognize the tune and know that it's a service song and not just a patriotic organ ditty?

All very good examples.  My first squadron, as part of its Level I training, covered most of these situations.  I don't know how it is now, but if a CAP member was on a military base back then (early '90s) and "Retreat" sounded, or you passed an officer's car with licence plate showing rank and didn't salute, you'd get called on it.

However, one negative experience I had was from a military officer at an airshow.  He was a Navy Lieutenant and I was a 2nd Lieutenant.  I called him "sir" and he read me the riot act:

"Don't call me 'sir'.  You guys are not military, you just help out the Air Force."

I could have told him to take his attitude and stuff it up an afterburner but didn't.  I just walked away and left Tom Cruise to stoke his ego.

[Struts]

I am also training a team for CyberPatriot next year, so watch out!

Since we are all off topic here...See you there sir. 

[bflynn]

Why do you assume when you say something incorrect that we are misunderstanding you?

Probably because it's incomprehensible to me how you can be right and everyone else is wrong. 

But this is not new, if you have something else, let me know...you can PM me if you like or just post.

[Eclipse]

Why do you assume when you say something incorrect that we are misunderstanding you?

Probably because it's incomprehensible to me how you can be right and everyone else is wrong. 

An interesting point, except that I'm not the only one who has issues with your assertions in this thread.

[bflynn]

An interesting point, except that I'm not the only one who has issues with your assertions in this thread.

Again, nothing new.

My assertion is that we're not more military because most members don't want it.  If you don't like that, that's fine, I understand that you want us to be more military.  Your personal desires and the desires of others around you do not except you from the realities of the situation you're dealing with. 

I do not make my assertion because that's how I want it to be, I make it because that's what I see.  You can have issue with it if you like, but I'll still say the truth as I see it.  Do you disagree that this is the way it is?  You've said I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that was directed at me personally and not the situation.

BTW, my contributions to CAP are very much in line with what I'm told are CAP priorities by my squadron commander, wing commander, region commander and national commander.

[jeders]

My assertion is that we're not more military because most members don't want it.

Opinion noted.

I do not make my assertion because that's how I want it to be, I make it because that's what I see. 

In your small corner of CAP maybe.

Do you disagree that this is the way it is?

Most everyone that has posted in this thread aside from you disagrees with this.

[bflynn]

Most everyone that has posted in this thread aside from you disagrees with this.

They disagree that we are not more military because the members don't agree to it?

Then please add to it, because I thought I understood why.  If I'm wrong about what's happening, I'm open to hearing about it.