DI

[krnlpanick]

You guys are spot on - probably the single best piece of advice ever given to me by a mentor in my life was that you "dress for the job you want, not the job you have." Having a professional appearance, speaking clearly and with purpose, having a command appearance, and demonstrating the desire to strive for perfection can help you go a long way in life. As SMs in Cadet Programs it is our *responsibility* to demonstrate this ourselves. Well said guys.

[bflynn]

Perception is reality.  If you look like a duffle bag you will be thought of as a duffle bag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp.

And nobody is talking about looking like a duffle bag.  That you have a clean, neatly presented uniform is a given...well, unless you've been out working.

My question is still - what does military professionalism get us that civilian professionalism does not?  Emphasis on the word military.  Remember that this thread started from the prospect of doing military drill...why?

Professional police, fire and EMS crews are not military.  They wear uniforms, look good and behave professionally.  But the are not military, nor even paramilitary.

[Eclipse]

My question is still - what does military professionalism get us that civilian professionalism does not?  Emphasis on the word military.  Remember that this thread started from the prospect of doing military drill...why?

CAP is a paramilitary organization.

1/3-1/2 of our mission is a paramilitary cadet program that shares the same resources and leaders.  A program in which all members
are supposed to participate.

Our parent service is a military organization.

Many of the resources we use, share, or regularly request, are from military and paramilitary organizations.

1/3-1/2 of our mission is emergency services, and a paramilitary model of respect, appearance, adherence to regulations, and expectation of compliance to directives without filter is what every successful law enforcement agency and fire department adheres to.

[Flying Pig]

Perception is reality.  If you look like a duffle bag you will be thought of as a duffle bag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp.

And nobody is talking about looking like a duffle bag.  That you have a clean, neatly presented uniform is a given...well, unless you've been out working.

My question is still - what does military professionalism get us that civilian professionalism does not?  Emphasis on the word military.  Remember that this thread started from the prospect of doing military drill...why?

Professional police, fire and EMS crews are not military.  They wear uniforms, look good and behave professionally.  But the are not military, nor even paramilitary.

Wow man...where have you been?  LE and EMS are very much paramilitary organizations.  And guess what?  We drill too.  A huge part of the academy is drill.  And its done for the same reasons.  Teamwork, Esprit de Corps (and to practice for graduation)

[bflynn]

CAP is a paramilitary organization.

Is there something that says that?  Or is that just your opinion?

There's nothing inherient about professionalism that is unique to military.  We can be sharp, be professional and be good - and not be military. 

We can also get the job done, be extrememly proficient and excellent at what we do and look like a duffle bag.  I've been in both types of organizations.  I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.

I don't advocate looking sloppy, but I put mission effectiveness and results ahead of appearance.  In the end, if you deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.  Also, if you don't deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.

I hestitate to use a TV show as an example, but M*A*S*H comes to mind.  The best doctors were the ones who hated the military the most. 

Did I just date myself?

[abdsp51]

Civil Air Patrol is a paramilitary organization, like it or not.  We wear a military uniform, use military customs and courtesies. 

Appearance speaks volumes as does mission accomplishment, you have to find a balanced point with both.  And MASH was a work of fiction as well and let me tell you there are plenty civilian doctors working in military health care I do not want near me with a ten foot pole. 

Now we can go back and forth over what is a higher priority but in the end perception is reality you look like a dufflebag you will be thought of as a dufflebag, you look sharp you will be thought of as sharp.  Bear in mind perception may change but it will take more effort to change it than to present a clean sharp appearance. 

[arajca]

Continuing the drift (or hard turn off topic...)

In the past couple years I have seen more base staff wearing the golf shirt than bdus or flightsuits. When someone walks in (member or non-member) and sees everyone wearing basically the same thing (details may vary - dress slacks vs 5.11's vs grey bdu pants, but it's generally navy blue over grey), the first impression is the staff is a TEAM, not a collection of individuals.

[RogueLeader]

CAP is a paramilitary organization.

Is there something that says that?  Or is that just your opinion?

There's nothing inherient about professionalism that is unique to military.  We can be sharp, be professional and be good - and not be military. 

We can also get the job done, be extrememly proficient and excellent at what we do and look like a duffle bag.  I've been in both types of organizations.  I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.

I don't advocate looking sloppy, but I put mission effectiveness and results ahead of appearance.  In the end, if you deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.  Also, if you don't deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.

I hestitate to use a TV show as an example, but M*A*S*H comes to mind.  The best doctors were the ones who hated the military the most. 

Did I just date myself?

As much as I find mash funny;  it is a slap on the face of the military.  It has the the three unmilitary captains as the only competent people. Everyone else is a hypocrite or incompetent. Mash could have gone the other way if the writers wanted to. Even the real doctors of Korean War mash's said it was not portrayed remotely accurately.

[bflynn]

What is this board's facination with uniforms?  Sheesh....

My premise was a simple question and observation.  What happens if the people you're leading don't want to play the same game you're playing?  Namely, in this example, what happens if SMs are told they must do close order drill? 

I recognize that different people have different viewpoints of what paramilitary should mean.  I will note that acting or being more military has nothing to do with professionalism or with getting our job done.

[BGNightfall]

CAP is a paramilitary organization.

Is there something that says that?  Or is that just your opinion?

There's nothing inherient about professionalism that is unique to military.  We can be sharp, be professional and be good - and not be military. 

We can also get the job done, be extrememly proficient and excellent at what we do and look like a duffle bag.  I've been in both types of organizations.  I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.

I don't advocate looking sloppy, but I put mission effectiveness and results ahead of appearance.  In the end, if you deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.  Also, if you don't deliver, it doesn't matter what you look like.

I hestitate to use a TV show as an example, but M*A*S*H comes to mind.  The best doctors were the ones who hated the military the most. 

Did I just date myself?

So, our example that we're using to discuss professionalism in a non-paramilitary environment is a fictional military comedy produced during the Vietnam War (and post-war years) that was a deliberate jab at all things military?  For all of my enjoyment of M*A*S*H (in all of its incarnations), I do not think that this would be my first example of non-military professionalism.  In fact, I wouldn't reach to the television at all, and would instead go to some non-military aid workers in Africa, who save people daily with quiet professionalism and are unburdened by wearing a uniform or drill and ceremonies. 

This is not the model that the Civil Air Patrol has chosen, for better or for worse.  We have chosen a model that mirrors a military organization, with uniforms and marching.  We have chosen a model that teaches young people the value of teamwork and unity through those very concepts, while also conveying respect for authority by utilizing an authoritarian military structure.  I'm not sure how many flying clubs nation-wide are organized into wings, groups and squadrons (Warbirds?  CFA?  Maybe?) with an individual commander at each echelon, but we certainly are. 

[Eclipse]

My premise was a simple question and observation.  What happens if the people you're leading don't want to play the same game you're playing?  Namely, in this example, what happens if SMs are told they must do close order drill? 

If the unit CC decides that D&C are important to the efficacy of the unit, then the member has two options, comply or find another unit.

I recognize that different people have different viewpoints of what paramilitary should mean.  I will note that acting or being more military has nothing to do with professionalism or with getting our job done.

Professionalism comes in many forms, but generally denotes the accomplishment of an organization's (or individual's) duties and goals in a structured and serious manner that shows an attention beyond superficial involvement.  It has little to do with a clock, even less to do with compensation, and everything to do with attitude.  In CAP, a component of the expectation of the membership is to comport themselves in a manner which shines positive light on themselves, the organization, and the military.

In terms of accomplishing our mission, the military bearing, appearance, and attitude of our membership directly reflects upon, and impacts our ability to perform our missions, especially ES and the cadet program.  They are an essential and non-optional component, and those members who chose to see otherwise swim against the tide for most of their CAP experience. 

CAP is a paramilitary auxiliary of the United States Air Force.  Why anyone would join, and then try and argue that point, or the inherent expectations
of the organization, never ceases to amaze me.

[krnlpanick]

I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.

I'm sorry, we are definately going to have to agree to disagree there. My experience int he IT field (where there are a lot of people who are sloppy but supposedly super-smart and good at what they do if you listen to movies) is completely inaccurate. The most effective people in any industry are the ones who *care* about what they are doing enough to outwardly project the quality of their work through their appearance. While some of the best teams of people I have worked with were pierced, tattood or both - they were also meticulous about their appearance and it reflected in their work. If a person doesn't care about their appearance or doesn't put "energy" in to their appearance I have found that whlie they may be smart, and they may be effective at doing the things that interest them - that same level of effort is not applied across the entire project or thing they are delivering.

I have found that people that are good at things that don't put the same effort into their appearance as their work are generally not team players as well. They don't put energy in to their appearance because they subconsciously (or sometimes outwardly) think they are better than the rest of their team and don't have to impress anyone.

As has been stated many times - and I absolutely agree - CAP is a paramilitary corporation, sponsored by and affiliated with the US Military, under the per-view of the Board of Governors and at times the US Secretary of the Air Force. Does this not demand that we are at least held accountable to *some* of the things that an active duty or reserve military person would be held to?

If that weren't an important aspect of the organization the BSA would probably be used for SAR as much or more than CAP (and we would still have to go find the lost boy scouts)

Anyhow, it feels like this thread has taken a whole new direction.

My summary of this thread is as follows:

1) Senior Members should *NOT* take a direct role in training cadets
2) Senior Members in Cadet Squadrons should at least be able to demonstrate the basics of drill
3) If in Uniform, Senior Members should be held to the same (or higher) standards as the Cadets
4) Leadership Officer should ensure that the Cadet Officers are properly prepared to teach D&C to their subordinates

My plan of attack:
1) Senior Members in Uniform should be inspected during inspection
2) I will work with the C/Officers and fill out the missing Cadet Leadership Positions (We currently have no assigned Element Leaders)
3) Set up Color Guard and Drill Team practice outside of normal meeting hours
4) Ensure Senior Members understand and are able to perform basic Drill (Ranks, Marching, Right/Left/About Face)
5) Reach out to local MTI to see if they can come speak to squadron on the importance of D&C
6) Design games for Elements and Flights to demonstrate their D&C skills
3)

[bflynn]

I don't hear anyone, including me, arguing that CAP is not the Air Force Auxiliary.  What we disagree on is what that means.  How much military is there in paramilitary.  It isn't defined or called for in our charter from Congress, so whatever there is is invented by members.

If the unit CC decides that D&C are important to the efficacy of the unit, then the member has two options, comply or find another unit.

Actually, that's not the only two options.  The member can stick stick around and be disgruntled, bring morale down and impact the effectiveness of the unit.  And it's very possible that the commander will never know how it's happening, they'll just know that the unit is falling apart around them.  Or that if they do figure it out, then they 2-B the member, they find that morale has fallen even further.

Option four is passive aggressive behavior - to do the drill, but do it poorly and just be incompentent at it.  It becomes a pain to do drill and everyone, including the commander, probably hate it.  Unless you think it's an offense to just be bad at something.

I'm sure there's an option five, perhaps to recruit others to leave the unit so that the command has no one lef to create a formation out of.

So comply or get out is not the only choices.  Because you can't force volunteers to do something that they're not already committed to.

At a time when I see members leaving because they're just tired of the grind, adding more grind to it is probably a bad idea.

[SarDragon]

Mr. Flynn, M*A*S*H is not a good example, for several reasons.

It was anti-war. Not so much anti-military, but certainly anti-war.

It was in a war zone, in the 1950s, much different from conditions today.

Hawkeye, Trapper John, and BJ succeeded because of their dedication to being doctors in that war zone. Doctors are a different breed. There were similar antics on the show "China Beach", which folks who were there say was closer to reality.

They were drafted, which adds another whole layer. There is no draft today, nor is there likely to be any draftees remaining on AD today.

The M*A*S*H attitude (be the best there is at your job, and call your own shots otherwise) doesn't really work for very long, especially outside the war zone. I gave it a try during my first enlistment, and it lasted about 18 months. I worked with folks who had been to Viet Nam, and they passed on tales of similar antics over there, but also decided that it didn't work in the US, 8600 miles from the war.

[bflynn]

I know that the one that looked like a duffle bag was by far the most effective in accomplishing their mission exactly because they didn't spend energy on making sure everyone looks 100% all the time.

I'm sorry, we are definately going to have to agree to disagree there.

I was talking about military units I've been a member of as examples.  I'm reporting my history, so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. 

[bflynn]

It was anti-war.

Is there anyone who is pro-war?  Or anyone who ISN'T anti-war?

[Struts]

I think we are a bit off topic here gents.

[SarDragon]

It was anti-war.

Is there anyone who is pro-war?  Or anyone who ISN'T anti-war?

Yes, and yes.

Read some history books about the late '50s, and '60s, and you'll see all kinds of folks who were more than happy to promote the goings-on in Viet Nam.

[spacecommand]

For Senior Members wearing the AF style uniform, basic courtesies and items such as "Attention", "Present Arms" and when to salute should be known.  However all SMs are not required to form ranks or march.

For cadets, depending on how many *active cadets you have, setting up a squadron drill team is a lot harder then it sounds.  I have a large squadron, but it's far easier to set up a group wide drill team then it is for a squadron drill team (again depends on your circumstances).  Color guards, with the smaller amount of people involved (4 cadets) are easier to form than drill teams.  In both cases especially for a large drill team, setting a regular meeting time outside of regular meetings is easier said than done. 

Any case, if there is only one of you doing this plan of attack, one step at a time, or you're going to burn yourself out. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

From the Free Online Dictionary:

par·a·mil·i·tar·y  (pr-ml-tr)
adj.
Of, relating to, or being a group of civilians organized in a military fashion, especially to operate in place of or assist regular army troops.
n. pl. par·a·mil·i·tar·ies
A member of a paramilitary force.

paramilitary [ˌpærəˈmɪlɪtərɪ -trɪ]
adj
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) denoting or relating to a group of personnel with military structure functioning either as a civil force or in support of military forces
2. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) denoting or relating to a force with military structure conducting armed operations against a ruling or occupying power
n
(Government, Politics & Diplomacy)
a.  a paramilitary force
b.  a member of such a force

Underlining mine.

Police officers learn drill (I used to live not far from a state police academy, and I used to see their bullet-headed recruits now and then), as do agencies like the Border Patrol.  They don't use it all the time, but they know how to do it.

In my first squadron you couldn't pass Level I until you learned customs and courtesies (from memory), facing stances and proper saluting.