Air Force Base Augmentation Program

[ddelaney103]

I think having someone volunteer to fill in a temporary vacancy is a LOT different than volunteering to take over the slot full time.  I very much doubt that more than a handful of CAP members would ever volunteer enough to actually full an existing slot on any organization chart. 

Dumb move by the Air National Guard. 

Seriously... didn't know ANG was unionized.

Actually, they are - at least some of them during the week.

As I mentioned somewhere else, the ANG people who work during the week keeping the aircraft running are either AGR (active guard/reserve - just like the AD types except they're locked to that base) and Air Technicians.  Air Techs are federal civil servants who also have to be traditional guardsmen/reservists.  Often, they are unionized federal employees.

I hadn't thought about it before, but I suppose if the "augmentation program" was used as a way to reduce the number of Air Techs or lower their hours, there might be a tussle with the union.

[PHall]

CAP volunteering to help the Air Force seems to only work during "one time" or "once a year" events such as an Air Show.

Volunteering help out on a routine basis, a whole different thing.

Now, if some of our CG Aux folks can explain the arrangement the Coast Guard has with the CG Aux and how this same arrangement could be used with the Air Guard or the Reserve, we might get somewhere.

[RiverAux]

I'll give you the simple rundown: 
1.  Auxie contacts local CG unit say he wants to help.
2.  If unit needs help, they say come on down.
3.  Auxie starts augmenting. 

OR
1.  Unit contacts flotilla, asks for help.
2.  Flotilla asks for volunteers.
3.  Volunteers help.

I've seen it done both ways in CG Aux.

The only times it is significantly more complex than that is if the Auxie needs some sort of security clearance or needs an account for the CG messaging system.

Only a minority of Auxies do this, but from what I can tell supply pretty much equals demand. 

Incidentally, I personally know Auxies who are qualified and do stand watch as Inport Officer of the Day on a CG cutter (leaving the Auxie as the only one on board and freeing up a Coastie to spend more time with his family) and have also seen Auxies fill in answering phones at a recruiter office when they were shorthanded. 

[PA Guy]

I am an Auxie, also CAP, that augments in a Coast Guard clinic as a health care provider.  We are required to meet the same educational requirements as the CG/USPHS providers.  We then go through the same credentialing process by the Armed Forces Inst. of Pathology as the CG/USPHS providers.  Then the Auxie applicant is interviewed by the clinic Chief Med Off to determine what privileges will be extended.

The Auxie is covered by fed liability protection and since all CG med. records are electronic is given access to CG workstation/e-mail.  I usually spend 2-3 days/mo seeing patients.  I schedule my time with the clinic administrator or fill in when needed for last min. TDYs etc.

[RiverAux]

PA Guy is referring to one CG Aux augmentation program that is much more complex, and for obvioius reasons. 

[PA Guy]

RiverAux is right.  The  program I'm in has many requirements due to its nature.  He also brings up another good point.  The number of Auxies that augment is quite small compared to the overall membership.  I'm the only member of my flotilla to augment on a regular basis.

[afgeo4]

I think having someone volunteer to fill in a temporary vacancy is a LOT different than volunteering to take over the slot full time.  I very much doubt that more than a handful of CAP members would ever volunteer enough to actually full an existing slot on any organization chart. 

Dumb move by the Air National Guard. 

Seriously... didn't know ANG was unionized.

Actually, they are - at least some of them during the week.

As I mentioned somewhere else, the ANG people who work during the week keeping the aircraft running are either AGR (active guard/reserve - just like the AD types except they're locked to that base) and Air Technicians.  Air Techs are federal civil servants who also have to be traditional guardsmen/reservists.  Often, they are unionized federal employees.

I hadn't thought about it before, but I suppose if the "augmentation program" was used as a way to reduce the number of Air Techs or lower their hours, there might be a tussle with the union.

Neither AGR nor ART slots can be unionized. The military cannot have strikes at bargaining tables. I think you're confusing them with civilian contractors. If a contractor strikes, the employer may hire another contractor and the difference in cost to the employer shall be restitution by court.

In fact, I don't believe any US Gov't employees are unionized. What would be the point? The pay and benefits system is a comprehensive one. It works similar to the military in their pay scales and it is very strict about enforcing ALL labor laws and directives. Paying a third party dues is pointless in that situation. Besides, private organizations such as unions cannot be allowed to hold bargaining power or any power over the operations of the U.S. Government.

I believe there's another reason why ANG would turn down our help. If through our augmentation, the DMNA or National Guard Bureau sees that the unit requires less manning, they will cut the slot and reduce funding. They will simply advise the unit commander to pursue other avenues of accomplishing the mission and they would be right... save the taxpayers' money if you can.

However, an ANG airman may end up having to retrain into some other AFSC or go to ArNG or worse... be separated. Reduction in manning is seen as a failure to commanders as well.

[RiverAux]

As noted earlier in this thread, it is extremely unlikely that any CAP member (or group of CAP members) would volunteer enough time to eliminate the need to man a specific position in any unit. 

And even if, for example, CAP members volunteered enough time to fill a specific slot, that unit is still going to have the same number of personnel slots according to its table of organization, which is based on what it needs to fulfill its primary mission.  Since CAP members are not going to be going along when they are deployed, they will still need a person in that slot.

The point of augmentation is to free up time for military personnel to focus on high priority tasks as much as possible, not to reduce the need for them in the first place.  Look at almost any job you want, civilian or military, and there are probably things that they need to do but can't because of other tasks that have to be accomplished.  That is where CAP would fit in. 

[PHall]

In fact, I don't believe any US Gov't employees are unionized. What would be the point? The pay and benefits system is a comprehensive one. It works similar to the military in their pay scales and it is very strict about enforcing ALL labor laws and directives. Paying a third party dues is pointless in that situation. Besides, private organizations such as unions cannot be allowed to hold bargaining power or any power over the operations of the U.S. Government.

I take it you've never heard of the AFGE, the American Federation of Government Employees.
They are the union that represents the Air Reserve Technicians (ART's) in the Air Force Reserve.

Matter of fact, many government employees are union represented. They can't go on strike but they do everything else a union does.

[ddelaney103]

This grew out of something on the AF Uniform thread, but I'm going to draw my line in the sand here because it's more appropriate.

(now, being AF, I don't have a sword and I don't want to dirty my coffee spoon, so I'll have to use my 360 round protractor - it looks kind of like some Klingon martial arts weapon)

If someone came into my area and said "I'm Major Bagadoughnuts from the AF Aux and I'm here to here to help," I'd have immediate problems.

Why?  Because he's claiming to be part of the game when he's not.  By using the title "Major," he is placing me in a peculiar situation.  As an E-8, it's not my job to direct Majors.  Subtly manipulate, maybe, but not direct.  Where does a "Major who's not a Major" fit on the pecking order?

For example, say the Major was walking down the street and an AF Lt is coming from the other direction.  Three things could happen:

• Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting.  Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.


• Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place.  Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt.  He could be a problem and bears further watching.


• Best Case - He salutes the Lt.  Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.

Now, this could all be avoided if he dropped the grade.  A civilian, even in uniform, who comes in and says, "Hi, I'm Joe - what can I do to help out?" is easier to deal with from my point of view.

I think this explains why the CGAUX went the way they did with an Aux "grade pin."  If we want to keep grade for our own purposes, fine.  However, let's not let it get in the way of our job.

[JayT]

• Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting.  Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.


• Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place.  Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt.  He could be a problem and bears further watching.


• Best Case - He salutes the Lt.  Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.

You're 'best case' is still the 'wrong case.'  Point to me any CAP directive that says that Majors salute Lieutenants, or, even better, point me to a directive that says that Air Force Officers are above CAP Senior Members for legal/ceremonial purposes.

Now, this could all be avoided if he dropped the grade.  A civilian, even in uniform, who comes in and says, "Hi, I'm Joe - what can I do to help out?" is easier to deal with from my point of view.

I think this explains why the CGAUX went the way they did with an Aux "grade pin."  If we want to keep grade for our own purposes, fine.  However, let's not let it get in the way of our job.

Even through I'm against this whole 'Base Augment' idea for a dozen different reasons, if it did happen, I think that following the CGAux idea of removing 'grade' insignia is the best.

[ddelaney103]

• Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting.  Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.


• Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place.  Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt.  He could be a problem and bears further watching.


• Best Case - He salutes the Lt.  Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.

You're 'best case' is still the 'wrong case.'  Point to me any CAP directive that says that Majors salute Lieutenants, or, even better, point me to a directive that says that Air Force Officers are above CAP Senior Members for legal/ceremonial purposes.

[/quote]

As soon as you show me a place where it says a CAP Major is like a RM O-4. 

I admit, it looks funny for a guy who looks like a Major to salute a Captain, but it's better than a CAP Major thinking he's a player.

[RiverAux]

The rank insignia is a legitimate issue to be discussed though I think it is a very minor one. 

If I were a commander weighing whether it is worthwhile to have a CAP guy do some tasks that would free up someone to do something my boss is breathing down my neck about or if I would refuse that help on the off chance that one of my airmen might accidentally salute that CAP person, I know which I would think is most important. 

[JayT]

• Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting.  Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.


• Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place.  Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt.  He could be a problem and bears further watching.


• Best Case - He salutes the Lt.  Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.

You're 'best case' is still the 'wrong case.'  Point to me any CAP directive that says that Majors salute Lieutenants, or, even better, point me to a directive that says that Air Force Officers are above CAP Senior Members for legal/ceremonial purposes.

As soon as you show me a place where it says a CAP Major is like a RM O-4. 

I admit, it looks funny for a guy who looks like a Major to salute a Captain, but it's better than a CAP Major thinking he's a player.
[/quote]

I disagree. A CAP Major is a CAP Major. A RM Lieutenant is an RM Lieutenant. The RM Lieutenant is in a different organization then the CAP Major.

The best option would proberly be for neither of them to salute. Why do you assume that the CAP Major automatically assume he's 'a player.'

Basically, what you're saying is we should toss out the C & C rules and traditions, because a few CAP members think they're 'players' (whatever that means). And futhermore, you're saying that CAP members should salute RM members because RM guys are better.

Should I be saluting Airmen and Privates?

[mikeylikey]

Remember the whole "salute the rank, not the person".  I think the "Real Military" LT would end up saluting the CAP Major if they walked past each other on the street, not for recognition of the person or of CAP, but in recognition of the oak leaf.

The rank is just a title in CAP, nothing more.  If it gets a salute from those of lesser rank, so be it.  It does not cause the world to fall apart for an AF LT to salute a CAP Major.

This argument would better be served to show reasons to get rid of rank OTHER than citing customs and courtesies.  If we can't find other reasons to remove the rank from CAP, in my book it should stay.

[ADCAPer]

Why?  Because he's claiming to be part of the game when he's not. 

I've avoided this thread because I wasn't sure exactly how to phrase the way I felt about this subject, but that's got to be the best analogy I've heard yet.

I'm all for people helping out, but the fact that anyone is in CAP does not qualify them to walk into any blue suit job that I'm aware of and readily augment a position, the AF is simply not set up this way. Lets face it, the AF is not the Coast Guard, and they aren't likely to start acting like them.

This is not to say that a volunteer might not be qualified to help, but most of the jobs are either technical enough that a volunteer could never meet or obtain the requirements they would need to actually do the job productively, or the job would require training / authorization / clearances / experience / etc. that would make it impractical to use a volunteer, especially on an infrequent basis. And by the time you eliminate the jobs that are just impractical to augment, the ones that are left aren't that glamorous.

Now, if you really want to help out, I'd suggest you have your local unit CC figure out what your resources are and get with the local Family Services Center, or better yet the local 1st Sgt's Group and volunteer to help the families of the deployed members. There's always someone who needs help keeping a yard mowed or getting something fixed while their spouse is deployed.

[RiverAux]

ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards.  Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF.  Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines?  Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background. 

[JayT]

ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards.  Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF.  Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines?  Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background. 

[SAR-EMT1]

ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards.  Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF.  Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines?  Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background. 

:clap:

My point exactly.

[PHall]

Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background. 

Ain't no such thing as a E-3 fresh out of boot camp at an Air Force Base unless it's a Air Education and Training Command base and the E-3 is a student in a school.

Just about everybody in the Air Force goes to a technical school after graduating BMT.
I can't think of a job that a military member is performing on an Air Force Base that a CAP Volunteer can do unless they got a bunch of training first.

About the only places I can think where a CAP Volunteer could be used would be stuff like the Family Support Center where their workforce is 100% volunteer.