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EMT-83
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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2012, 02:05:41 PM »

Well, the conspiracy theory is a lot more fun than the truth. Doesn’t that count for anything?
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NIN
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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2012, 02:09:14 PM »

A smartphone can stream, sir.

Doesn't anyone in the NEC own a smartphone? I hope one or two does.

You did not just legitimately suggest streaming a meeting with a smartphone, did you?

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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RADIOMAN015
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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2012, 02:21:28 PM »

Plain and simple #1. Someone forgot to record/stream it, or #2. the NEC did not want it broadcast.

The briefings yesterday were recorded, and will be put on line,  Just like the Winter Boards.  The draft minutes will be put on line alongside the agenda.  As I mentioned last night, this puts us ahead of similary organizations in terms of transparency.  I am proud of the work the staff is doing to keep you and others informed.

I think it's a great idea to record, edit, & provide concise information on a timely basis about the meeting after its' conclusion.  Most of us don't really want to spend the time watching the entire meeting, it can get down right boring and there were problems with the feeds anyways. 
RM       
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Nathan
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« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2012, 02:33:42 PM »

I'm sure that only a tiny fraction of CAP membership reads the minutes of board meetings, but should they stop being posted as well?  I'd say that 1% viewership is probably a major win for the program.  I'd be surprised if CSPAN viewership was that high.

Except, as has been made abundantly clear, posting a PDF online doesn't cost anything. Streaming does. This is simple math. When we do a cost/benefit ratio analysis, we could afford to post the minutes even if only ONE person reads them. But for the cost of quality streaming to be worth the outcome, there needs to be a little more interest in actually seeing these things happening in real-time.

And unsurprisingly, that interest simply isn't there. Would you like to volunteer to pick up the tab for streaming the service? That might be a viable alternative to the problem of cost.
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Nathan Scalia

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« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2012, 03:33:01 PM »

I'm sure that only a tiny fraction of CAP membership reads the minutes of board meetings, but should they stop being posted as well?  I'd say that 1% viewership is probably a major win for the program.  I'd be surprised if CSPAN viewership was that high.
(emphasis mine)

With several dozen times the budget.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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NIN
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« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2012, 03:35:48 PM »

But we will continue to find the best way to keep the membership and stakeholders fully informed about what happens at our meetings.

This reminds me of the whole "if a tree falls in the forest" thing, Ned.

If a motion occurs on a live stream while the good Captain is off getting his coffee, did it really occur? 
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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FW
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« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2012, 03:50:25 PM »

And I remember when no one outside the old boy's club had any say into strategic-level affairs, whereas now we have 9 of 11 members on a Congressionally-empowered BoG who are not NEC types. There's no scandal here in the lack of streaming.

OK, but 7 of 11 BoG members are there due to the direct influence of the National Commander of Civil Air Patrol.  Not bad. 
 
Watching a NEC meeting is like watching grass grow.  Most decisions are made in committee. The meeting is to make the decisions "official".  There is no reason we can't wait a few days to hear what transpired.  It's not like we will have to change uniforms or anything... OH, Wait!.. >:D
 
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A.Member
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2012, 05:49:07 PM »

I like the idea of the meetings being recorded and posted for ad hoc viewing by the membership.   The real opportunity is in making the agenda known in advance and raising awareness as to where the agenda, minutes, and video will be stored.  Let's face it, the structure of our website does not making finding this info easy.   

Fact is, were it not for CAPtalk, I'd have no idea when such meetings are taking place nor would I know the agenda (hint to leadership:  the communication to membership on these items is not effective).  That perhaps explains in part the low viewship of past streams, not to mention the fact that they occur during the day when many are at work.  I'd bet the 1% is roughly equivalent to the percentage of members that even know such a meeting is taking place.
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caphornbuckle
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »

I believe that regardless of what is decided at the NEC meeting, we are still obligated to obey what is decided let alone if we find out about it through some sort of streaming program, the national website, or though our chain of command.  The only reason I can figure out why it needs to be live-streamed is to nit-pick the uniforms, the way the members of the committee speak, or just to blast a certain member of the committee on here.

Issues like streaming is a moot point.  I don't believe there are "black ops" meetings in the back room.  Even if there were, they wouldn't stream them anyways.  I'm also sure that there are members down there who will keep CAPTalk up to date on the happenings anyways.

Just because we live in the age of technology doesn't mean it is affordable or even beneficial in everything we do!
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Lt Col Samuel L. Hornbuckle, CAP
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« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2012, 07:55:11 PM »

Before this magical thing called the Interwebz, you got your CAP info from Civil Air Patrol News or your chain of command.

Funny, CAP existed for like 60 years without the internet and streaming meetings and all that, and nobody in the rank-and-file had a problem with how meetings were conducted, what decisions were made, etc.

Heck, all I knew was that the NB was made up of 64 members (52 Wing Commanders, 8 region commanders, the national commander, the vice national commander and, uh, there were like 2 more) and they met like once a year and made important decisions.  (thank you, quiz bowl).  Beyond that, I am reasonably certain that the NB didn't really care whether or not I read about their meeting and decisions in Civil Air Patrol News (usually in October after the August meeting).

Don't confuse the availability of information with some kind of a right to either know it or be involved in it.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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RiverAux
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2012, 09:33:51 PM »

Any organization that depends on its membership to do anything should be very interested in keeping them informed of what is going on and in obtaining their support for decisions that are made.  Those that think otherwise may have some problems. 
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lordmonar
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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2012, 10:19:14 PM »

Any organization that depends on its membership to do anything should be very interested in keeping them informed of what is going on and in obtaining their support for decisions that are made.  Those that think otherwise may have some problems.
Yes.....and I don't think the NEC/NB or BoG is not intrested in keeping people informed.
But....just because we don't stream video or invite each and every member into the meeting room and ask each one their opinions on all subject.....does not mean anyone is trying to hid anything.

Keeping the good will of the volunteers in important.
Yet we are not the only large organisation where major dicisions are made with little or no input from the rank and file.
The ARC and BSA just to name a few.

Don't mistake transparancy with empowerment.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
RADIOMAN015
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2012, 01:00:36 AM »

Any organization that depends on its membership to do anything should be very interested in keeping them informed of what is going on and in obtaining their support for decisions that are made.  Those that think otherwise may have some problems.
Yes.....and I don't think the NEC/NB or BoG is not intrested in keeping people informed.
snip..snip....
Keeping the good will of the volunteers in important.
Yet we are not the only large organisation where major dicisions are made with little or no input from the rank and file.
The ARC and BSA just to name a few.

Don't mistake transparancy with empowerment.


Every CAP member has empowerment.  They can choose when they want to participate or not participate in a meeting, function, training, or mission.    They can choose whether they will drive a CAP vehicle or not.  Same goes for aircraft.  They can choose not to sign for any CAP equipment.

CAP is very lucky as an organization that we have some pretty naive volunteer members, who subject themselves to financial liability that they wouldn't have with most other non profit organizations utilizing unpaid volunteers. 

BTW anybody know how many "active" senior members we have, utilizing the definition in the AF Statement of Work that CAP agreed to ??? :angel:
RM   
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CAP4117
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2012, 01:40:51 AM »

Keeping the good will of the volunteers in important.
Yet we are not the only large organisation where major dicisions are made with little or no input from the rank and file.
The ARC and BSA just to name a few.

Don't mistake transparancy with empowerment.
This whole discussion has made me think of the ARC, where I've been a volunteer for 6 years. At the level that most volunteers participate, very little is known about the decisions the higher-ups are making. I have never heard anyone complain about transparency, or even talk about it for that matter. Major decisions about operations are being made all the time, and (at least down on my level) we never hear about it. I'm not saying that's a good thing, because people inevitably disagree about the decisions that are made once they are passed down, but I have never known it to interfere with operations in a major way. For those of you who also volunteer with the Red Cross, YMMV. That's just been my experience locally.
That said, I really applaud CAP's efforts at transparency. It shows a great deal of respect for the members.
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manfredvonrichthofen
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2012, 02:11:31 AM »

It's good to know that I am naive. I don't think anyone puts themselves at any more risk legally Or financially than law enforcement or emergency medical personnel do.
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RADIOMAN015
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2012, 04:26:10 AM »

It's good to know that I am naive. I don't think anyone puts themselves at any more risk legally Or financially than law enforcement or emergency medical personnel do.
I don't know about cops or emt's --- this discussion is on Civil Air Patrol volunteer personnel, performing CAP authorized duties. 
RM
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Extremepredjudice
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2012, 04:36:08 AM »

A smartphone can stream, sir.

Doesn't anyone in the NEC own a smartphone? I hope one or two does.

You did not just legitimately suggest streaming a meeting with a smartphone, did you?
I did.

 No stream < bad quality stream

The quality isn't actually that bad, at least when I tried it (6 months ago). The phone didn't even have a good camera, and it came out pretty good. Something with a 720/1080p camera would probably do even better.


OR you could tether a laptop to your phone. Probably be your best bet. Tethering would work perfectly. Just download a free/cheap app, connect to the hotspot and WAMMO you have internet. Then you just use a camera of some sort, attach to live stream.

So:
Acquire smartphone
Download tethering (or personal hotspot) app
Connect with laptop
Connect camera to livestream
Stream
#Profit
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RRLE
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2012, 10:35:31 AM »

Any organization that depends on its membership to do anything should be very interested in keeping them informed of what is going on and in obtaining their support for decisions that are made.  Those that think otherwise may have some problems.

Many of us know that you are also an active member of the USCG Auxiliary and a frequent, putting it mildly, poster on their board. The USCG Aux does not publish the agenda for any of its National Meetings. Until very recently it posted nothing, no minutes etc about the results of those meetings. Recently, the USCG, not the Aux, at least posted the 4 proposals the Aux made to the USCG and the USCG's actions on those - but still no detailed minutes from the Aux like CAP does.

Yet, you make no statements or complaints about the complete lack of transparency and communication in the USCG Aux and find fault with the much greater transparency of CAP. In the future, I am going to look forward to your comments on the Aux board regarding Auxie governance issues. It does appear you have different standards for two very similar organizations.
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manfredvonrichthofen
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2012, 12:02:06 PM »

It's good to know that I am naive. I don't think anyone puts themselves at any more risk legally Or financially than law enforcement or emergency medical personnel do.
I don't know about cops or emt's --- this discussion is on Civil Air Patrol volunteer personnel, performing CAP authorized duties. 
RM
I know a bit about the risk they put themselves into, every single time you go on a call, you put yourself at risk to be sued or worse... All it takes is one little thing to go wrong and it just might be on you. It's up to the hospital and the city if they want to back you or not, you just might find yourself taking care of your own lawsuit.

CAP at least has the ability to use the good Samaritan clause, so long as your not a registered EMT or Paramedic. Other than that, I fail to see what risk you might be thinking of. And I also don't see how you got onto this train of thought through this thread.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2012, 12:19:20 PM »

Any organization that depends on its membership to do anything should be very interested in keeping them informed of what is going on and in obtaining their support for decisions that are made.  Those that think otherwise may have some problems.

Many of us know that you are also an active member of the USCG Auxiliary and a frequent, putting it mildly, poster on their board. The USCG Aux does not publish the agenda for any of its National Meetings. Until very recently it posted nothing, no minutes etc about the results of those meetings. Recently, the USCG, not the Aux, at least posted the 4 proposals the Aux made to the USCG and the USCG's actions on those - but still no detailed minutes from the Aux like CAP does.

Yet, you make no statements or complaints about the complete lack of transparency and communication in the USCG Aux and find fault with the much greater transparency of CAP. In the future, I am going to look forward to your comments on the Aux board regarding Auxie governance issues. It does appear you have different standards for two very similar organizations.

1.  In comparison to CAP, the CG Auxiliary leadership has a remarkable degree of self-restraint in terms of what they propose.  While they may have a proposal every now and again that seems frivolous, it isn't the norm like it is with CAP.  They only proposed 4 things this year, which is probably only 10-20% of the proposals in front of CAP's leadership in any given year. 

2.  CG Aux's leaders are chosen in a democratic fashion in which I actually have a say, albeit someone limited given my current place on the Aux totem pole.  In CAP I have absolutely zero input into who my leaders are.  Being a fan of representative democracy, I do tend to have more trust in people that I've had some say in putting in place. 

3.  Finally, in the CG Aux I have as a final backstop the Coast Guard who can generally be trusted to do the right thing and to act as a check on any crazy ideas that might be put forward.  The AF only has a very limited degree of control over such things in CAP.  While I certainly didn't have a say in who those CG leaders are, I do trust them to do what is right for the Aux and the CG.  The AF hasn't shown a consistent ability to provide the same level of oversight to CAP (witness how the corporate service uniform fiasco played out).  I think the CG cares enough about the Aux to do the right thing -- I'm not even sure CAP-USAF really cares about what is good for CAP and the AF. 

All that being said, I do think the Aux leadership should vet their draft proposals to the membership for comment. 
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