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Author Topic: Out ranking  (Read 13442 times)
lordmonar
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« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2012, 01:54:49 AM »

Okay.....let's try a little thought experiment.

50 officers from 50 different wings are all in a room.  The National Commander walks in and says...."Here is a list of tasks that need to be accomplished in one hour" and walks out.

Now....the National Commander just issued an order.

Who has the duty to carry out that order?
Who has the authority to ensure that they get carried out?
Who is in charge of the exercise?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Eclipse
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« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2012, 01:59:23 AM »

Who has the duty to carry out that order?
Everyone in the room, equally.

Who has the authority to ensure that they get carried out?
The National Commander, and no one else.

Who is in charge of the exercise?
The National Commander, and no one else.

The alphas in the room will surely take control, as in any group dynamic, however that does not give them the authority to do so, nor
to direct anyone else to do anything.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2012, 02:05:19 AM »

Who has the duty to carry out that order?
Everyone in the room, equally.

Who has the authority to ensure that they get carried out?
The National Commander, and no one else.

Who is in charge of the exercise?
The National Commander, and no one else.

The alphas in the room will surely take control, as in any group dynamic, however that does not give them the authority to do so, nor
to direct anyone else to do anything.
Now that's chaos.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Eclipse
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« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2012, 02:06:58 AM »

Now that's chaos.

Yep.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2012, 02:33:03 AM »

I rethought this a bit....I think it is a difference between respect and authority.  We respect the grade for the reasons I posted several pages back.   

The authority is for the successful achievement of any mission we are given.

Comments? ;)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 03:16:53 AM by Major Carrales » Report to moderator   Logged
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lordmonar
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« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2012, 05:48:43 AM »

I rethought this a bit....I think it is a difference between respect and authority.  We respect the grade for the reasons I posted several pages back.   

The authority is for the successful achievement of any mission we are given.

Comments? ;)
Authority is the Legitmate use of power.

We show respect to people who are placed in authority over us.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2012, 05:56:19 AM »

If you are going to have ridiculously large governing bodies, such as NB, why not add the NEC to NB, and make the regional commanders work with whoever is in their region. Then the teams will present their ideas to the NB as a whole.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2012, 06:09:36 AM »

If you are going to have ridiculously large governing bodies, such as NB, why not add the NEC to NB, and make the regional commanders work with whoever is in their region. Then the teams will present their ideas to the NB as a whole.
??? The NEC is part of the NB.  Regional commanders are supposed to work with the wing commanders in their region.  And the teams do present their proposals to the NB as a whole.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2012, 07:48:55 AM »

If you are going to have ridiculously large governing bodies, such as NB, why not add the NEC to NB, and make the regional commanders work with whoever is in their region. Then the teams will present their ideas to the NB as a whole.

I suggest that you give CAPR 20-1 a close read. Page 3 in particular.
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Dave Bowles
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ol'fido
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« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2012, 02:29:42 PM »

Okay.....let's try a little thought experiment.

50 officers from 50 different wings are all in a room.  The National Commander walks in and says...."Here is a list of tasks that need to be accomplished in one hour" and walks out.

Now....the National Commander just issued an order.

Who has the duty to carry out that order?
Who has the authority to ensure that they get carried out?
Who is in charge of the exercise?
As near as I can tell from gleening through the last 3 pages of posts, the point of contention between you and Eclipse is that you feel that grade regardless of the chain of command imparts it's own authority. You used the example of the major ordering the first lieutanant to get them a cup of coffee. I don't knoiw that such an authority exists in real life. Certainly, a 1stLt must render proper customs and courtesies to the Maj but for all practical purposes that's where the authority ends.

I say for practical purposes, because I don't believe that any senior officer who has been properly trained and educated in military protocol or in the mechanics of rank, grade, postition, authority, or duty is going to try to exercise such power over a junior officer not in his direct chain. That may be the the problem here. In the real military, the chains of grade, rank, and position are more clearly established whereas in CAP they are not. Having the authority and knowing when to and in what situation to exercise it is two different things. Going back to the coffee model... the major may ask a lieutenant to get him a cup of coffee and the LT may do so out of courtesy. However, if the lieutenant is working on a task assign by his boss, then he can and should respectfully say that, "I'm sorry, sir, but the Col has got me jumping through hoops right now." And the senior officer should have the savvy to say, "Well, in that case, can you just point me to the coffee pot.".

The only time I feel that a "random" senior officer should exercise any "authority" over more junior personnel not in his direct chain is when he observes gross violations of regulations or safety protocols. The "authority" should be limited to stopping the actions that are in contention. The senior officer should then drop back and punt to the chain of command that those junior personnel belong to. The senior officer's authority ends there if appropriate corrective action is taken by the "offenders" chain of command.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #90 on: April 14, 2012, 03:41:25 PM »

You are exactly right.

But now you have crossed over into the should vs could area of the subject of authority.

The concept of STAFF authority says that all leaders has some authority simply because they hold a particular grade and rank.  Using that authority is based on the situation.  Military leaders are taught when and how to execute that authority and the limits to that authoirty.  STAFF authority does not extend into the mission or operational area.

The Navy article uses the example of STAFF authority as a "random" officer telling a junior to get a hair cut....as you pointed out...simply enforcing the established regs.

A random officer can order you get your hair cut, stop horse playing, stand at attention when a senior officer walks into the room, go and get coffee....but he can't order you to deploy your ground team, stop you from flying a mission, or issue any order that interferes with the mission/operational orders issued to you by someone with LINE authority.

But just because STAFF authority is limited, is seldom exercised or should be exercised with care does not mean that it does not exist.

STAFF authority exists to solve situaitons like in my thought experiment because it would the basis for the senior member in room to establish HIS authority to take on the tasks and order the rest of the officers to get the mission done.

As you say....for practical purposes it almost never happens.  90% of the time any CAP member will only be dealing with people within the chain of command (LINE Authority) or working with someone who has deligated authority (Functional authority) based on his staff position in the wing/group/unit.

If you are looking for a heirarchy of the different types of authority.....Line is always on top, followed by Functional and Staff in that order.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Eclipse
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« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2012, 04:10:09 PM »

I agree with your definition of the concept, it just doesn't apply to CAP.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #92 on: April 14, 2012, 04:32:01 PM »

I agree with your definition of the concept, it just doesn't apply to CAP.
Well I guess we are at the point where we just have to agree to disagree.  :)
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Major Carrales
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« Reply #93 on: April 14, 2012, 04:54:00 PM »

I agree with your definition of the concept, it just doesn't apply to CAP.

The main issues here seems to revolve around CAP unit culture.  Some units follow long established traditions associated with CAP back to the 1940s and 1950s...some isolated units exist in a vacuum and, if separated from other CAP units, develop their own culture.  Still...others try to bring in the cultures of other organizations.  This said, there are some CAP units that operate much like they were anything from frontier military units/outposts (a State away from Wing HQ) to a bunch of guys sitting around a table.

Is this lack of homogeneous culture in CAP a problem? 

Well, maybe this idea being debated between you two sheds some light on the matter.  I am not former Military, but I believe there needs to be an adherence to CAP's roles, traditions and unique status as an Auxiliary of the USAF and of the Army before that.  That is the lineage of CAP.  I feel CAP has its own traditions and operations that sometimes are a mixture of the military and the civilian.  Sometimes, there are almost factions that try to impose their understandings on others and then become upset when these notions are questioned. One such place is with this idea of grade.

When others enter from other organizations or mindsets...there is a clash.  Officers and Enlisted personnel of the Military bring with them the culture of their units.  Community minded civilian/general aviation pilots bring with them their mindsets and expectations.  The average person looking to serve their community in a unique way enters theirs as well.

There are certain elements of CAP history and tradition that I cling to.  There are understandings of how CAP works that I adhere to based on having lived with them for the 13 or 14 years I have had anything to do with CAP.  They often clash with some of the people on here, or used to.

I have said it many times on line that CAP cannot be judged through the prism of other organizations.  With RiverAux I have maintained that USCG Aux rules would not work or fit with CAP.  With others I have maintained that what works and operates in the USAF is not necessarily some thing that will work for CAP.  Other try to bring in rules even from the other Cadet corps that exists out there.

However, it is CAP culture that we need to focus on.  At least, that is how I see it.

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Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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« Reply #94 on: April 14, 2012, 05:56:26 PM »

Must be a reason why we are called the CIVIL Air Patrol, civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force as defined by  AF Instruction 10-2701.

I would tend to believe that one's position in the organization (versus displayed rank), would be the primary supervisor authority/instructions.   Even staff members get authority from within their line management function to direct operations within their functional areas.     

Regarding rank, I would think that at least the lower ranking members would consider what was said/told to them.   HOWEVER, I think the way something is said/phrased is likely going to determine its' effectiveness in being complied with.  Civilian Adult membership wise in CAP, I don't think the word "I order you" is going to go very far with anyone, especially IF it's someone one doesn't know out of the unit and was delivered in a nasty "I'm a wanna bee" way, without respect for a member.   

BTW I've seen very high rank people in CAP approach adult members very quietly and tell them they were out of uniform. In one instance at a wing conference the high ranking member took the other member into the men's rest room and actually was able to correct the uniform (took off the wing patch on the light blue uniform) and the guy wasn't even in the unit.   The adult in question was getting an award, is a real work a bee for the wing and I'm sure that high ranking member wanted to be sure the member would be in compliance.

When I see something real stupid (which is usually uniform issues) that an adult member is doing, I normally will tell them nicely, and the answers one gets can be mind boggling  :o:(

Frankly, I take pity on those that volunteer to be in the adult leadership of this organization.  Regardless how you look at it, we aren't military, it isn't paid employment.  Volunteers can basically pick what they like/want to do.  The leadership challenge is how to (how well to) get everyone to work together, staff all the positions with "qualified" OR at least "semi-interested" personnel, and yet meet the individual volunteers' expectations as to why they joined.  Not easily accomplished.
RM
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Phil Hirons, Jr.
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« Reply #95 on: April 14, 2012, 07:12:18 PM »

Regarding rank, I would think that at least the lower ranking members would consider what was said/told to them.   HOWEVER, I think the way something is said/phrased is likely going to determine its' effectiveness in being complied with.  Civilian Adult membership wise in CAP, I don't think the word "I order you" is going to go very far with anyone, especially IF it's someone one doesn't know out of the unit and was delivered in a nasty "I'm a wanna bee" way, without respect for a member. 

Respect is really the key here. Short of "Stop that {unsafe, hazing, etc}, right now!" No one in CAP should be barking orders.

BTW I've seen very high rank people in CAP approach adult members very quietly and tell them they were out of uniform. In one instance at a wing conference the high ranking member took the other member into the men's rest room and actually was able to correct the uniform (took off the wing patch on the light blue uniform) and the guy wasn't even in the unit.   The adult in question was getting an award, is a real work a bee for the wing and I'm sure that high ranking member wanted to be sure the member would be in compliance.

When I see something real stupid (which is usually uniform issues) that an adult member is doing, I normally will tell them nicely, and the answers one gets can be mind boggling  :o:(

R E S P E C T again (key Ms Franklin). Leadership 101, praise in public, criticize in private. I don't offer uniform or other regulatory advice / corrections (in private) unless I'm 100% certain and I've gotten some of those mind boggling answers as well.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #96 on: April 14, 2012, 07:57:48 PM »

Must be a reason why we are called the CIVIL Air Patrol, civilian auxiliary of the United States Air Force as defined by  AF Instruction 10-2701.


No, the reason the word "CIVIL" appears in the title of this organization is related to "CIVIL DEFENSE" which was a paramilitary movement of HOME LAND DEFENSE and EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT during WWII and the COLD WAR. 

The Civil Defense aspect even survives in our signage.
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ColonelJack
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« Reply #97 on: April 14, 2012, 10:13:45 PM »

BTW I've seen very high rank people in CAP approach adult members very quietly and tell them they were out of uniform. In one instance at a wing conference the high ranking member took the other member into the men's rest room and actually was able to correct the uniform (took off the wing patch on the light blue uniform) and the guy wasn't even in the unit.   The adult in question was getting an award, is a real work a bee for the wing and I'm sure that high ranking member wanted to be sure the member would be in compliance.

I've seen that too, RM, and I've also seen - and done - the opposite.  I recall very clearly back in the '80s, when Gen. Bill Cass (then CAP/CC) was at Robins AFB for the GAWG conference.  He came into the O-club in  uniform and his lapel insignia was hanging half off - and he didn't know it.  I was the first to see him and (very quietly) said something like, "General, sir, your lapel brass is hanging."  Gen. Cass stopped, glanced down, and saw it; he didn't have another frog on him, so I took one off my ribbon rack and gave it to him.  He thanked me and went about his business, and I went about mine.

He's a pretty cool guy, at least he was the one time I met him.

Jack
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