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Extremepredjudice
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2012, 06:52:29 AM »

Again, topicality.  Cronyism would make a fine paper of it's own, as would nepotism.  If it is his intention to write a paper on solely cronyism, then that is what he should do.  But the idea of corruption...it's lapse in ethics and disregard/disrespect to the system established via law or society is a GREATER issue than any of it's individual parts.

WHat is a "working" definition of corrpution?  What is organizational corruption?  What causes corrpution?  What makes a person think they can circumnavigate the established system for person gain?  Why is that wrong and how does it harm the greater organization?  It is based in a "cult of the leader?" 

These are the organization shaking questions that he should address.

Cronyism and nepotism are symptoms of corrpution, in my understanding and opinion, corrpution is the disease.

Let us use a far better definition that is defined in accordance with a "legal" context, which defines a more organization relevent tone than simply to "decay"...

Quote
CORRUPTION. An act done with an intent to give some advantage inconsistent with official duty and the rights of others. It includes bribery, but is more comprehensive; because an act may be corruptly done, though the advantage to be derived from it be not offered by another. Merl. Rep. h.t.
     2. By corruption, sometimes, is understood something against law; as, a contract by which the borrower agreed to pay the lender usurious interest. It is said, in such case, that it was corruptly agreed, &c.
From:  http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/corruption

Quote
Cronyism(Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the practice of appointing friends to high-level, esp political, posts regardless of their suitability
From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cronyism

Appointing friends to positions of authority is, by this definition, not cronyism if they are qualified or suitable.  So, if a CAP officer occupies a position at Wing, even if it was for years in a long learned position, and a new Wing Commander appoints a new person to that staff position who has more experience, knowledge and skill, it could be looked at as cronyism...however, it is infact, not.

Now, a clearing of the house to make room for unqualified friends?  That would be.

I have known many commanders that prefer to, when taking command, have people they know from years of service in CAP each them in that they are proven.  They may favor them in their initial descision en re staff because there are certain things that are critical in the first stages of a Command and these people may be what is needed to establish that certain thing. 

That would not even be corruption by the above definition because it is in line with official duty, within established policy and is not meant to gather some personal advancement (to add your definition to it)  Some might see that as "unfair," however, if we assume a commander selects a staff for its ability to accomlish the misison...well?  How would keeping a lesser qualified officer in position contribute to that, a removal to an assistant position then seems more fair to the more experienced person. 

Now, appointing people who are friends and promoting them to some position they are not ready for or capable of doing simply to be surrounded by yes people for furtherance of one's personal agenda?  That is another story.
Sir,
Don't be a troll, bro. Just help the man, instead of attacking his topic and basic premise. It really isn't helping or being productive, it really is a hrr move. It doesn't help CT as a community, and creates a negative enviroment.  I don't know what your college background is, but on papers you pass a point of no return were you can't change your topic or subject. You gotta live with it, and perhaps he is struggling for content, and we'd be able to help him if we weren't trolling his simple post asking for help.

And please add a TL;DR to your page long posts.

I'd refute you now, but I don't like doing research on my phone, and I'd do it tomorrow, but someome will probably do it.

NCR, can you either post a copy or PM me a copy?(when it is finished) I'm intrigued.
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2012, 07:32:35 AM »

A good corruption thesis would have been the public education system in America.

i.e. A Community College president earns a higher salary than the President of the United States?   :o
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2012, 07:38:37 AM »

Excuse me?  Troll?  Are you even critically reading my posts or seeing them for what they are? 

I am providing him with a wealth of information on the subject matter he is addressing.  I provided a more suitable definition for him to use, add or adapt; made some clear distinctions on certain points he and others made.  I've made suggestions on how he might better approach the topic in a way that would provide a channel for his ideas to get by the usual "veil of bias" that often obscures the ideas and premise the author makes.

He asked for a challenge, debate and the like.  It is from contention that ideas are tempered. I have asked that of CAPTALK many times on my own account, i.e. bringing forth an idea and letting it "run the course."  It is a process that allows the wealth of knowledge here to improve the idea for "faith untested is no faith at all."

There is nothing negative in anything I wrote, whereas your post had 1) name calling (the troll reference), 2) presumption (presuming my intent is some sort of aggresive one despite addressing the issues I actually wrote which were offered as help), 3) insulting or otherwise challenging my education (an ad hominem attack) and 4) failed to refute? (what refutation is necessary; there is nothing to refute, I've made my position clear, stated examples and offered my opinion in a friendly manner)

I don't think he was making this as a report for any sort of class, but rather (as I see it) as a sort of tool for the good of the organization.  I was also, not alone is suggesting he change his focus to either the more topical concept of CORRUPTION or focus on Cronyism or Nepotism if that is his interest.

I will admit that I questioned his intent, but that was to show that his approach contained elements that would "turn off" the very readers he wants to reach.  Turning off these readers in that way would make his whole effort moot.
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2012, 11:32:24 AM »

Clearly, there is a reticence on the part of the members to have actual instances of corruption in CAP committed to ink. CAP has certainly seen official corruption (although you will have to excuse Eclipse, since he hails from parts where that's business as usual!)

Limiting the discussion of corruption and the remedies for corruption solely to CAP, would probably be useless from the standpoint of a discussion in organizational dynamics, since the sample is too small. A thorough examination of instances of corruption from a historical perspective could be of great value, but since you will never gain access to official records, everything you would find would have to be second-hand or even more far removed than that, so the value as  cautionary tales would be minimal. My suggestion would be to find a really good example of a single, actual, case of corruption within CAP, and obtain as many viewpoints as possible from those with direct knowledge and involvement in that particular scandal. Then, if the "perpetrators" were involved in second instances, an exploration of the systemic failure would be more warranted.

My own view on why we have corruption in CAP? ( or anywhere else for that matter) Man is sinful, corrupt, wicked, murderous, and larcenous by nature, and his base nature is just barely held in check by the thin veneer of society. On the other hand, its great job security....

Major Lord

All excellent points. Writing a paper on corruption using CAP as your only example has limited merit.  If you look at the recently published AF IG report to the SECAF, you may be able to find "corruption" examples however, you need to look very hard and, have some idea how to "read between the lines".  Even so, how does this coincide with the successful work of the members?
Disreguard of the rules for self interest, cover ups and, abuse of power seems to be the new normal everywhere; not just in CAP. 
 
I would suggest you seriously take Major Carrales's advice to widen your scope and, get a better understanding of what you wish to write on.
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bflynn
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2012, 11:45:46 AM »

So perhaps a pursuing that topic would be helpful for the OP - how did the situation related to the AF IG investigation come about.
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EMT-83
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 12:20:38 PM »

Sir, Don't be a troll, bro.

Cadet, you seriously owe an apology to Major Carrales.
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isuhawkeye
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2012, 12:24:55 PM »

NCR - I believe that what is perceived as corruption in many organizations is the manifestation of "an unhealthy ownership in a public trust" any time leaders lose sight of the true purpose of an organization, or the trust that is placed upon them by the members and citizens they get in trouble.  We often focus to closely on personal gain, or the "ownership" of something that we lose our ability to improve.

John
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Cliff_Chambliss
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2012, 01:16:37 PM »

A Question:  Is it accepted policy on Captalk to label anyone with a dissenting opinion (especially one that makes sense) a troll?  Seems to happen somewhat frequently. 
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2012, 01:22:23 PM »

Again, topicality.  Cronyism would make a fine paper of it's own, as would nepotism.  If it is his intention to write a paper on solely cronyism, then that is what he should do.  But the idea of corruption...it's lapse in ethics and disregard/disrespect to the system established via law or society is a GREATER issue than any of it's individual parts.

WHat is a "working" definition of corrpution?  What is organizational corruption?  What causes corrpution?  What makes a person think they can circumnavigate the established system for person gain?  Why is that wrong and how does it harm the greater organization?  It is based in a "cult of the leader?" 

These are the organization shaking questions that he should address.

Cronyism and nepotism are symptoms of corrpution, in my understanding and opinion, corrpution is the disease.

Let us use a far better definition that is defined in accordance with a "legal" context, which defines a more organization relevent tone than simply to "decay"...

Quote
CORRUPTION. An act done with an intent to give some advantage inconsistent with official duty and the rights of others. It includes bribery, but is more comprehensive; because an act may be corruptly done, though the advantage to be derived from it be not offered by another. Merl. Rep. h.t.
     2. By corruption, sometimes, is understood something against law; as, a contract by which the borrower agreed to pay the lender usurious interest. It is said, in such case, that it was corruptly agreed, &c.
From:  http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/corruption

Quote
Cronyism(Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the practice of appointing friends to high-level, esp political, posts regardless of their suitability
From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cronyism

Appointing friends to positions of authority is, by this definition, not cronyism if they are qualified or suitable.  So, if a CAP officer occupies a position at Wing, even if it was for years in a long learned position, and a new Wing Commander appoints a new person to that staff position who has more experience, knowledge and skill, it could be looked at as cronyism...however, it is infact, not.

Now, a clearing of the house to make room for unqualified friends?  That would be.

I have known many commanders that prefer to, when taking command, have people they know from years of service in CAP each them in that they are proven.  They may favor them in their initial descision en re staff because there are certain things that are critical in the first stages of a Command and these people may be what is needed to establish that certain thing. 

That would not even be corruption by the above definition because it is in line with official duty, within established policy and is not meant to gather some personal advancement (to add your definition to it)  Some might see that as "unfair," however, if we assume a commander selects a staff for its ability to accomlish the misison...well?  How would keeping a lesser qualified officer in position contribute to that, a removal to an assistant position then seems more fair to the more experienced person. 

Now, appointing people who are friends and promoting them to some position they are not ready for or capable of doing simply to be surrounded by yes people for furtherance of one's personal agenda?  That is another story.
Sir,
Don't be a troll, bro. Just help the man, instead of attacking his topic and basic premise. It really isn't helping or being productive, it really is a hrr move. It doesn't help CT as a community, and creates a negative enviroment.  I don't know what your college background is, but on papers you pass a point of no return were you can't change your topic or subject. You gotta live with it, and perhaps he is struggling for content, and we'd be able to help him if we weren't trolling his simple post asking for help.

And please add a TL;DR to your page long posts.

I'd refute you now, but I don't like doing research on my phone, and I'd do it tomorrow, but someome will probably do it.

NCR, can you either post a copy or PM me a copy?(when it is finished) I'm intrigued.

Carrales got called a Troll?  I dont know what his college background is either, but I imagine its at least the minimum to be a school teacher ;D
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bflynn
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2012, 01:52:22 PM »

NCR - I believe that what is perceived as corruption in many organizations is the manifestation of "an unhealthy ownership in a public trust" any time leaders lose sight of the true purpose of an organization, or the trust that is placed upon them by the members and citizens they get in trouble.  We often focus to closely on personal gain, or the "ownership" of something that we lose our ability to improve.

John

An interesting idea.  Certainly in CAP there are individuals who are strongly invested in the organization.  There are a large number of people who have forgotten that purpose of the (senior) organization is not seeking promotion, providing training to members or even practicing leadership - it is to serve our communities using our unique skils as pilots.  Or at least that's what it used to be.
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jeders
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2012, 02:01:43 PM »

Don't be a troll, bro.
First off, you're calling possibly one of the most level-headed CAPTalk posters a troll, seriously kid?

Just help the man, instead of attacking his topic and basic premise.
If a basic premise can't stand against simple scrutiny, it is unlikely that the paper will stand. Joe and the others are simply pointing out some basic items that should be clarified before the paper is set, and before anyone can really give good critical input.

I don't know what your college background is, but on papers you pass a point of no return were you can't change your topic or subject. You gotta live with it, and perhaps he is struggling for content, and we'd be able to help him if we weren't trolling his simple post asking for help.

This is the part that made me actually reply to your post after FP pointed it out. I don't know what your education background is, but having written and re-written a number of papers, there is never a point at which you cannot dump the whole thing and start fresh. That's all a part of critical thinking and writing and is something you would do well to learn sooner rather than later.

Quote
And please add a TL;DR to your page long posts.
I know I'm not the most internet savvy person there is, so, come again?
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2012, 02:04:23 PM »

An interesting idea.  Certainly in CAP there are individuals who are strongly invested in the organization.  There are a large number of people who have forgotten that purpose of the (senior) organization is not seeking promotion, providing training to members or even practicing leadership - it is to serve our communities using our unique skils as pilots.  Or at least that's what it used to be.
No. That is not our sole purpose, and it never has. As a matter of fact, were are specifically called to "provide training to members [and] even practicing leadership,"  as you put it, through our Aerospace Education and Cadet Programs missions.
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2012, 02:17:24 PM »

it is to serve our communities using our unique skils as pilots.

Oh darn. I'm not a pilot, I guess I'm not fulfilling CAP's goals then ::). I agreed with your post all the way up to "as".
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »

it is to serve our communities using our unique skils as pilots.

Oh darn. I'm not a pilot, I guess I'm not fulfilling CAP's goals then ::). I agreed with your post all the way up to "as".

Am I back in my old flying club senior squadron, where there were two kinds of members: "pilots" and "baggage?"

As far as "corruption"...I've seen a lot of self-centred jerks in CAP, who appoint like-minded self-centred jerks to be around them, and award them chest candy for being sycophants.

Unfortunately, institutionalised corruption and being a self-centred jerk are not necessarily synonymous, though it follows that to be corrupt, one probably should be a self-centred jerk.
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2012, 03:09:54 PM »

In my 10+ years of CAP experience, I have yet to come across corruption. I have seen some great leadership and some not-so-great leadership. The not-so-great leadership which included some ethical lapses, although unfortunate, did not rise to the level of corruption.

Having said that, I can't imagine a thesis pertaining to corruption not being negative.
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« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2012, 03:14:43 PM »

In my 10+ years of CAP experience, I have yet to come across corruption. I have seen some great leadership and some not-so-great leadership. The not-so-great leadership which included some ethical lapses, although unfortunate, did not rise to the level of corruption.

Having said that, I can't imagine a thesis pertaining to corruption not being negative.
Exactly.

Equating "Cronyism" with "Corruption" is something that would concern me as well.  What one person calls "cronyism", another could call a leader selecting those he trusts to advise him.
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« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2012, 03:29:34 PM »

NCR, here's my suggestion, based on the points brought up in this thread.

Write a paper evaulating IF, not THAT, CAP has experienced corruption. I think a lot of the backlash you're getting is on your somewhat stubborn stance that CAP has unquestionably experienced corruption at some level, and it's only a matter of finding out where it happened. That's not a particularly balanced statement, and certainly not one that demonstrates an objective stance like you claim to hold. The backlash shouldn't be unexpected.

It's as if you said, "Hey, I'm writing a paper demonstrating that Obama's birth certificate is fake", and then you get upset when some people don't accept the premise.

What you CAN demonstrate (factually) are the actions of certain members and groups within CAP that have been considered questionable by the membership. Your next logical step, then, is to explore whether certain actions are corruption. If you believe they are, then provide arguments which counter the assertions made by those opposed to the idea that corruption has occured. And now you have a paper topic which allows you to cite sources and talk about what you PERCEIVE to be corruption, while also ensuring your academic honesty by making clear that the assertions you provide are evaluations, not statements of fact.

In fact, I just gave a moral leadership class to cadets over this, the "FAPS" system: F=Facts, A=Assumptions, P=Problems, S=Solutions. Go through the steps, and you'll figure out why people are a little irritated...
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« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2012, 03:34:14 PM »

In my 10+ years of CAP experience, I have yet to come across corruption. I have seen some great leadership and some not-so-great leadership. The not-so-great leadership which included some ethical lapses, although unfortunate, did not rise to the level of corruption.

Having said that, I can't imagine a thesis pertaining to corruption not being negative.
Exactly.

Equating "Cronyism" with "Corruption" is something that would concern me as well.  What one person calls "cronyism", another could call a leader selecting those he trusts to advise him.

I agree. At the squadron level, the pool of people to draw from for an assignment is quite small.  I would hope that everyone in that pool is at least friendly, if not friends. Therefore, assignments will always go to friends. Is this cronyism?

Even most wings are small enough for the senior leaders to become familiar with most of the active/effective participants.

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JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2012, 03:37:52 PM »

In my 10+ years of CAP experience, I have yet to come across corruption. I have seen some great leadership and some not-so-great leadership. The not-so-great leadership which included some ethical lapses, although unfortunate, did not rise to the level of corruption.

Having said that, I can't imagine a thesis pertaining to corruption not being negative.
Exactly.

Equating "Cronyism" with "Corruption" is something that would concern me as well.  What one person calls "cronyism", another could call a leader selecting those he trusts to advise him.

I agree. At the squadron level, the pool of people to draw from for an assignment is quite small.  I would hope that everyone in that pool is at least friendly, if not friends. Therefore, assignments will always go to friends. Is this cronyism?

Even most wings are small enough for the senior leaders to become familiar with most of the active/effective participants.

The other half of cronyism is that they're appointed regardless of their qualifications (as defined by Maj. Carrales above). It would be like the Wing King appointing me to be the legislative squadron commander/government relations advisor because he thought I should be a Lt. Col., even though I have absolutely no skill liasing with legislators and would do a horrible job at it.

Appointing a qualified individual who happens to be your friend isn't necessarily cronyism.
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I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2012, 03:41:23 PM »

In my 10+ years of CAP experience, I have yet to come across corruption. I have seen some great leadership and some not-so-great leadership. The not-so-great leadership which included some ethical lapses, although unfortunate, did not rise to the level of corruption.

Having said that, I can't imagine a thesis pertaining to corruption not being negative.
Exactly.

Equating "Cronyism" with "Corruption" is something that would concern me as well.  What one person calls "cronyism", another could call a leader selecting those he trusts to advise him.

I agree. At the squadron level, the pool of people to draw from for an assignment is quite small.  I would hope that everyone in that pool is at least friendly, if not friends. Therefore, assignments will always go to friends. Is this cronyism?

Even most wings are small enough for the senior leaders to become familiar with most of the active/effective participants.

The other half of cronyism is that they're appointed regardless of their qualifications (as defined by Maj. Carrales above). It would be like the Wing King appointing me to be the legislative squadron commander/government relations advisor because he thought I should be a Lt. Col., even though I have absolutely no skill liasing with legislators and would do a horrible job at it.

Appointing a qualified individual who happens to be your friend isn't necessarily cronyism.

I agree wholeheartedly that that would be a perfect example of poor leadership and cronyism. I am not sure that it would rise to "corruption" in my mind, though.
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