Polo and shorts

[AirDX]

"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft."

When else are senior members required to wear a uniform? 

Second question: can members wear part of a CAP distinctive uniform?  For USAF, AFI36-2903 says unambiguously "Do not mix or wear military unique uniform items with civilian clothes; for example, rank insignia, cap devices, badges, and other US or Air Force insignia, devices, buttons, etc."  I cannot find a similar CAP reg.  And to be honest it would be tough...  you can't tell me I can't wear civilian grey slacks off-duty!

The specific question here is the polo.  I've been told by someone very highly placed in the wing that the polo is only a uniform when worn with the grey slacks, black belt and shoes.   Wearing it with jeans or shorts is perfectly acceptable, since it is not a uniform when worn this way.  I disagree highly - I think when in a distinctive uniform item like the polo, it needs to be worn professionally and correctly.

Citation to regulation that helps me refute this would be welcome.  Or, if I'm wrong, point that out to me, and I guess I'm going to start wearing shorts to wing staff meetings. 

[RiverAux]

"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft."

For starters you might want to quote the current regulation.  That is what it used to say, but refer to Table 1.1 in the current manual and you will find that besides those situations you will wear uniforms

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

as well as certain other situations. 

[RADIOMAN015]

Comments Below:

"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft."

When else are senior members required to wear a uniform? 

Most would say that when a CAP adult member is representing CAP at an external function or meeting they should wear an appropriate uniform


Second question: can members wear part of a CAP distinctive uniform?  For USAF, AFI36-2903 says unambiguously "Do not mix or wear military unique uniform items with civilian clothes; for example, rank insignia, cap devices, badges, and other US or Air Force insignia, devices, buttons, etc."  I cannot find a similar CAP reg.  And to be honest it would be tough...  you can't tell me I can't wear civilian grey slacks off-duty!

CAP members are not governed by USAF Regulations on uniform wear other than what is in the USAF Regulation on management of Civil Air Patrol .  However, there are restrictions as to when CAP uniforms can be worn.  It stands to reason that grey civilian pants are just that, grey civilian pants and when not part of the uniform are just that civilian pants :angel:


The specific question here is the polo.  I've been told by someone very highly placed in the wing that the polo is only a uniform when worn with the grey slacks, black belt and shoes.   Wearing it with jeans or shorts is perfectly acceptable, since it is not a uniform when worn this way.  I disagree highly - I think when in a distinctive uniform item like the polo, it needs to be worn professionally and correctly.

CAPM 39-1, page 76 (Note #4) and also Table 4-4 (Men/Women's Golf Shirt / Summer Uniform), specifically Line #1

Citation to regulation that helps me refute this would be welcome.  Or, if I'm wrong, point that out to me, and I guess I'm going to start wearing shorts to wing staff meetings.

I've seen tan pants & blue jeans worn with the polo shirts.  I'd like to see the option of wearing some sort of tactical pants e.g. http://tacticalpants.com/mens-blackhawk-tnt-pantswith the blue polo shirt.

It's unfortunate that even with the simplest of optional uniforms (e.g. a golf shirt) that some members can't be in compliance.
RM

[Eclipse]

A number of CAP schools have waivers to wear shorts with the golf shirt (NESA-MAS, glider academies).

Beyond that, there's no reg to stop you, however I personally think it's somewhat disrespectful to wear any uniform item outside CAP activities.
It will also wear it out faster.

There are logowear items available for that sort of thing.

[RiverAux]

Well, although it technically is a "uniform", I personally wouldn't care if someone wore the polo shirt in other situations.  No one is going to know that it is an official uniform item than they are to know that the logo tshirts are not uniform items.  So long as they're not wearing them in a place that might bring discredit upon CAP it would be fine with me.

However, I think that even if our current regulations don't explicitly ban such wear, I'm sure that is the spirit behind the regulations and wouldn't encourage anyone to do so.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Herein lies one of many rubs with our non-AF uniforms.

The only "uniform" that was uniform was the CSU.  Now, the BBDU comes closest.  The blue utility jumpsuit has no requirements other than it be blue.  It does not have to be the one sold by Vanguard.  I have seen several different kinds, in slightly variant shades of blue, including SAC missileer coveralls.  I've thought on occasion of getting a surplus RCAF flight suit (they're all over Evilbay for like $35, in excellent shape) but the blue has a little bit of grey in it (like the RAF) and it has epaulettes.  I sent a question to NHQ about it and got back the deafening sound of silence.



Like RM15 said, I too have seen khakis and blue jeans worn with the polo shirt, especially back a few years ago when there were several different varieties of it.  I've also seen various permutations of shorts (Bermudas, etc) worn with it.

Even the grey/white is not "uniform."  There is no requirement that the white shirt has to be the Van Heusen one offered by Vanguard, and as the OP said, grey civilian slacks are grey civilian slacks.

But as far as when one is required to wear a uniform, again the issue of insurance coverage comes into it.  I believe one is only covered by CAP insurance if on a CAP/AF authorised activity/mission in uniform.

[lordmonar]

But as far as when one is required to wear a uniform, again the issue of insurance coverage comes into it.  I believe one is only covered by CAP insurance if on a CAP/AF authorised activity/mission in uniform.

What insurance?
AFAIK....CAP self funds insurance....

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But as far as when one is required to wear a uniform, again the issue of insurance coverage comes into it.  I believe one is only covered by CAP insurance if on a CAP/AF authorised activity/mission in uniform.

What insurance?
AFAIK....CAP self funds insurance....

I think that's what I was referring to...I may have got the terminology wrong.

[AirDX]

"Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft."

For starters you might want to quote the current regulation.  That is what it used to say, but refer to Table 1.1 in the current manual and you will find that besides those situations you will wear uniforms

when engaged in normal duties as a CAP member or attending local, wing/region, or national CAP functions (see note 1).

as well as certain other situations.

What I quoted was the Knowledgebase, not the reg.

The reg says:

1-1. Policy. CAP members are authorized to wear CAP distinctive uniforms as well as
uniforms similar to the U.S. Air Force. Civil Air Patrol uses distinctive emblems, insignia, and
badges to identify individuals wearing the AF-style uniforms as CAP members. Wear of the
AF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms are as
prescribed by the Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF. See
Tables 1-1 through 1-3 for information on wearing the uniform, dress and appearance, where to
purchase uniform items, and grooming standards.

It says we are "authorized to wear" CAP uniforms, it doesn't say shall wear, will wear, should wear, may wear.  Remember I am dealing with a barracks lawyer on some level.  Other than 60-1, which very unambiguously says:

c. CAP members will wear an appropriate CAP uniform and carry proof of CAP membership. Only occupants of CAP gliders, tow planes, and crew members requested not to wear uniforms by the customer of a CD Mission are exempt from the CAP uniform requirement.

where does it say must, shall, or will wear?  Spirit and intent are fine, but is there black and white to back it up?

[AirDX]

Beyond that, there's no reg to stop you, however I personally think it's somewhat disrespectful to wear any uniform item outside CAP activities.

Agreed.  However, what I am talking about in this case is individuals at a CAP meeting wearing the dark blue (polo/knit/golf) uniform shirt with shorts or jeans. 

[AirDX]

Well, although it technically is a "uniform", I personally wouldn't care if someone wore the polo shirt in other situations.  No one is going to know that it is an official uniform item than they are to know that the logo tshirts are not uniform items.  So long as they're not wearing them in a place that might bring discredit upon CAP it would be fine with me.

However, I think that even if our current regulations don't explicitly ban such wear, I'm sure that is the spirit behind the regulations and wouldn't encourage anyone to do so.

I too do not really care what people do outside of CAP.  However, at CAP meetings and activities, I am concerned.  That is the situation I am talking about - at CAP meetings and activities, individuals wearing the polo and nothing else from that uniform combo.

[RiverAux]

It says we are "authorized to wear" CAP uniforms, it doesn't say shall wear, will wear, should wear, may wear.  Remember I am dealing with a barracks lawyer on some level.

As I said in my first post, Table 1-1 is where you go.  The language in it regarding wearing the uniform while doing cadet programs is in exactly the same table and written in much the same way. 

[Woodsy]

My squadron is a little lax about the gray slacks...  You'll see every shade of gray know to man, all sorts of styles, even cargo pants, but the line would get drawn at shorts. 

With the reg about not fundraising in uniform, I was told by higher ups that when I'm knocking on doors of business looking for sponsorships, to wear the blue polo with jeans, because that way I have some credibility to the business (if in just civillian clothes they might not believe its legit) and I'm also technically not in uniform because of the jeans.

[ßτε]

That's odd, since the restriction on uniforms for fund raising is only on USAF-style uniforms, not corporate uniforms.

[abdsp51]

Personally I think Khaki or coyote as some places have a named it would be a better color with the Polo.  I think the 5.11 pants in Khaki would go great with the polo and would give a look similar to the AF informal uniform currently available.   But the line should be drawn at shorts. 

[lordmonar]

khaki and blue is what the USAF uses for their version of the casual uniform.

[abdsp51]

khaki and blue is what the USAF uses for their version of the casual uniform.

I suggested that for the Open Skies escorts. But I think it would be appealing for CAP's use as well.

[Woodsy]

That's odd, since the restriction on uniforms for fund raising is only on USAF-style uniforms, not corporate uniforms.

I think we have a local policy regarding that, from what I hear there was some sort of an incident a while back, before my time so don't know any details.

[lordmonar]

That's odd, since the restriction on uniforms for fund raising is only on USAF-style uniforms, not corporate uniforms.

What's odd about that.  The USAF does not want us to use their uniform when raising money.

What's odd is that a lot of AFJROTC either do not know or routinely ignore that rule.

[Eclipse]

Do they have the same rule?

It's a restriction for us only on cadets, and what else would AFJROTC leaders wear?