Ranger tab

[Al Sayre]

Yeah,

Too bad they don't have an "Ask the CAP-USAF Commander" function...

[Ned]

Yeah,

Too bad they don't have an "Ask the CAP-USAF Commander" function...

Remember, the CAP-USAF commander's opinion is not very helpful one way or another.

I really think you guys are "over-thinking" this whole subject.

There is really nothing to suggest that anyone in the current USAF structure is holding a grudge, remembers incident X or incident Y, or even really cares much one way or another at this point.  As others have pointed out, there is no one in the AF that was even around when we changed from blue to maroon to grey on our shoulder marks.  And certainly no one that remembers when we had metal grade directly on the shirt/jacket.

It is unrealistic and more than a little narcisisstic to think that as senior AF staffers transfer or retire that they buttonhole their replacement to pass along legends and lore in an effort to sabotage any reasonable requests made by CAP.

What happens is what happens in any large organization - when we are ready to make a request, we prepare a packet with our requests and justifications (a significant undertaking).  Then each level of AF hierarchy makes their honest and good-faith recommendations until it reaches the final decsion-maker who makes the call in the name of the CSAF.

After the National Uniform Committee makes its recommendations to the NB next summer in Baltimore, the NB will decide what, if any, requests to make concering our uniforms.  The NB has the authority to request (or not) ABUs, changes to service dress insignia, and/or changes to our corporate uniform set-up, etc.

Staff will then create the packet for approval, and it will then go forward through USAF channels.

And then things will either change a little, a lot, or not at all.

But nothing is going to happen unless and until the NB decides to request one or more changes to our uniforms.  And that cannot happen until next fall at the earliest.  Given how decisions are made in CAP and the USAF, my guess is that there will be no significant changes for a least a year, and maybe longer.

But we can and will continue to debate it endlessly here.  Because for most CAPTalkers - judging by the numbers of threads and posts - what we wear is far more important than what we do.

[FW]

Maybe when we stop appointing members to high positions who are not proud to wear the uniform correctly, can we get a more positive "response" from the Air Force.  I really don't have a better answer.  Culture change starts at the top.  As with anything else, members only follow what happens from above.

Are we getting smoked on that because of the past National Commander whose one good achievement for CAP was the design of a truly attractive and well-liked CAP uniform, which was besmirched by the way he "introduced" it?  Is that going to be another 20-year (and counting) punishment the way the withdrawal of metal grade and blue epaulettes was?

Truly, though, how can we be expected to make the changes in culture you talk about when we don't know what the AF expects of us viz. wear of the AF uniform?  We speculate about such things ad nauseam on CT, but has anyone actually asked, in a respectful manner, what those terms and conditions are/would be?

I don't imagine that anyone higher up the food chain than me is willing to ask those questions.

I would submit them myself if it didn't almost guarantee a 2B somewhere along the line.

Our uniform "issues" with the Air Force predate the removed past National Commander.  This has to do with members across the country who refuse to wear the Air Force uniform correctly.  It has to do with AF inspection teams constantly complaining of CAP's unwillingness to enforce the proper wear of the uniform.  It has nothing to do with the CSU and, I'm pretty sure, the wear of ranger tabs on the BDU. 

Now, why the Air Force has not commented on the 2006 request by the CAP is unkown to me.

BTW; I never wore a ranger tab on my BDUs....

And see where that got you???   

Yep...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Our uniform "issues" with the Air Force predate the removed past National Commander.  This has to do with members across the country who refuse to wear the Air Force uniform correctly.  It has to do with AF inspection teams constantly complaining of CAP's unwillingness to enforce the proper wear of the uniform.

How endemic is this?  I have not noticed it in my unit, and since we meet on an ANG installation I'm sure we'd be corrected sharpish for any impropriety.

[PHall]

Our uniform "issues" with the Air Force predate the removed past National Commander.  This has to do with members across the country who refuse to wear the Air Force uniform correctly.  It has to do with AF inspection teams constantly complaining of CAP's unwillingness to enforce the proper wear of the uniform.

How endemic is this?  I have not noticed it in my unit, and since we meet on an ANG installation I'm sure we'd be corrected sharpish for any impropriety.

Go observe a SAREVAL sometime. Don't wear a uniform or anything to give you away as an "observer".
You'll see plenty of uniform violations.

[Eclipse]

^ Yes, and in some cases it'll be the evaluators who are violating their regs.  Not to mention that it's pretty hard to get a flightsuit wrong,
which is what a lot of USAF people wear 24x7 regardless of their actual duty.

Until "Blues Mondays" started a couple years ago, a lot of reservists didn't even own blues that fit, and fewer still owned a service coat.
On more than one occasion I have provided guidance to someone in the USAF on configuring their uniform because it had been so long
since they wore it they had no idea where things went.

CAP has reaped what it has sown in regards to uniforms.  This last weekend I saw a Unit Commander wearing a plastic cadet nameplate on his service coat. Yes, a unit commander.  It was pointed out immediately, but how long had that been going on with no one making an issue of it?

The root cause is that lack of the requirement of uniformity in our dress ("Just wear whatever you have..."), coupled with a lack of consistent basic training,
and out of date, self-conflicting regulations.  That's not an excuse, but it is the reason.

[NCRblues]

^ Yes, and in some cases it'll be the evaluators who are violating their regs.  Not to mention that it's pretty hard to get a flightsuit wrong,
which is what a lot of USAF people wear 24x7 regardless of their actual duty.

CAP has reaped what it has sown in regards to uniforms.  This last weekend I saw a Unit Commander wearing a plastic cadet nameplate on his service coat. Yes, a unit commander.  It was pointed out immediately, but how long had that been going on with no making an issue of it?

The root cause is that lack of the requirement of uniformity in our dress ("Just wear whatever you have..."), coupled with a lack of consistent basic training,
and out of date, self-conflicting regulations.  That's not an excuse, but it is the reason.

And a lack of regulatory enforcement...

Rules are fine, but must be enforced to make any difference. When you have a SM who for YEARS has worn the uniform wrong, they are not going to change without outside force. That outside force has to come from up the chain of command. If up the chain of command you have people in positions of authority who do not wear THEIR uniform correct then............

[Eclipse]

Agreed.

[PHall]

Until "Blues Mondays" started a couple years ago, a lot of reservists didn't even own blues that fit, and fewer still owned a service coat.
On more than one occasion I have provided guidance to someone in the USAF on configuring their uniform because it had been so long
since they wore it they had no idea where things went.

We normally wore blues (Service Dress) maybe about once a year when I was in the Reserve. And there were a number of years where I didn't wear blues at all.
Being a flying unit we pretty much wore flight suits all of the time. The maintenance guys pretty much wore their BDU's all of the time too.
Blues were something you wore for a Airman/NCO/Senior NCO of the Quarter Board and stuff like that.

People knew I was in CAP and I was considered to be a "uniform expert" because of that.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What Eclipse said is true.

I've lost count of the number of times I saw AF personnel (usually, not exclusively, in BDU's) at an eval with uniform violations (mostly H/W) that would have got a CAP member thrown under the bus (or undercart).

I've always been very reluctant to say anything to them...after all, they're the Air Force, and I don't want any appearance of a CAP officer trying to give orders to an AF NCO.

It is hard to screw up a flightsuit, that is true, but I've seen it done.  At one training mission I attended, one of my classmates was a former Marine AV-8 Harrier pilot (I would assume so, anyway).  He had this on his right arm:



I thought "should I say something?" but then thought "no, if he learned to fly Harriers in the Marines he's done a lot more than I ever will."

[Spaceman3750]

I thought the AF taped and therefore doesn't have a H/W standard like we do?

[abdsp51]

We do tape but that is more along the lines of assessing your physical fitness level than anything.  Give me a little bit and I will see if I can find something on height/weight. 

[PHall]

We do tape but that is more along the lines of assessing your physical fitness level than anything.  Give me a little bit and I will see if I can find something on height/weight.

I'll save you the effort, there is nothing about height/weight anymore.

You do have the waist measurement which is part of the PFT. If your waist measurement exceeds 38 inches it's an automatic fail for the entire PFT.
Even if you passed all of the other areas... (1-1/2 mile run, push ups, sit ups)

The 38 inch measurement is for males, I don't know what the female measurement is. Didn't need to know it since I am a male.

[sarmed1]

We do tape but that is more along the lines of assessing your physical fitness level than anything.  Give me a little bit and I will see if I can find something on height/weight.

I'll save you the effort, there is nothing about height/weight anymore.

You do have the waist measurement which is part of the PFT. If your waist measurement exceeds 38 inches it's an automatic fail for the entire PFT.
Even if you passed all of the other areas... (1-1/2 mile run, push ups, sit ups)

The 38 inch measurement is for males, I don't know what the female measurement is. Didn't need to know it since I am a male.

Change that again...got told over the drill rweekend that its back to the previous version....overall passing score; irregardless of subsection scoring.

regarding flight suits: as a previous flyer there are (especially in the reserve components) some people pushing maxiumum density but, flight suits are one of those things that have to be spot on; either you look realy good in one or you dont, there is no middle ground.

mk

[abdsp51]

Just got through reviewing the change memo that came out and there was nothingin there about back to overall score.  There are height and weight requirements for entry though. 

[cpyahoo]

*looking around*  I thought this thread was about the Hawk Mountain Ranger tape?

[PHall]

*looking around*  I thought this thread was about the Hawk Mountain Ranger tape?

You thought wrong...

[LGM30GMCC]

Re: USAF Height/Weight Standards for Uniform Wear

The PFT is certainly a far stricter force thinner than Height/Weight standards are. Over the last quarter my base alone shed 40 people for failure to pass the PFT. You can bet quite a few of them were well within 'height/weight' standards.

[bosshawk]

Phil Hall: look at page one and see that the original question concerned a "white on red" Ranger tab.  As far as I know, from 34 years of Army service, the Ranger tab never consisted of those colors.  I think that the tab originally was yellow on black and most of them are subdued black on whatever color of field uniform is being worn at the time.

Therefore, this thread does seem to be about the Hawk Mt Ranger Tab, although it has gotten off track to the point of nobody remembering what caused it in the first place.

[BillB]

WHO dares to take a uniform thread off track??