Term of Address for a C/CMSgt serving as First Sergeant?

[titanII]

Hey, all. I had a "what-if" type of question.
If there were a C/CMSgt serving as First Sergeant at the squadron (not at Encampment), how would you address him/her? As "Chief" or as "First Sergeant?" I guess I'm a bit confused because at Encampment our Group First Sergeant was addressed as "Command Chief." My guess is "First Sergeant," but...
Thanks for the help

[Daniel]

Hey, all. I had a "what-if" type of question.
If there were a C/CMSgt serving as First Sergeant at the squadron (not at Encampment), how would you address him/her? As "Chief" or as "First Sergeant?" I guess I'm a bit confused because at Encampment our Group First Sergeant was addressed as "Command Chief." My guess is "First Sergeant," but...
Thanks for the help

Because of the wear of the first sergeant diamond he/she would be addressed as "First Sergeant"

they would not be command chief because that is symbolized by a star and to the best of my knowledge is authorized no where in the cadet progrM.

[Extremepredjudice]

It would be 1st. Sergeant. Your rank is moot if you are wearing the diamond.

I don't think command sergeant is authorized, either.

[coudano]

Call him Shirt!

I guess I'm a bit confused because at Encampment our Group First Sergeant was addressed as "Command Chief."

Command Chief is another "duty identifier", it's not authorized in any CAP publications, but you will see it sometimes in an encampment manual.  In the USAF, there is a Command Chief at the Wing and higher level.  Obviously you have to be a Chief (pay grade E9) to be a command chief (staff position).

Whereas any Senior NCO (MSgt-CMSgt) can be a first sergeant (typically at the squadron level)
You'll see first shirts at the group level too, sometimes.

[titanII]

I see. Just as I suspected!  .
Thanks for the feedback, everybody

[davidsinn]

Call him/her Chief. First Sergeant is a position not a title.

[jimmydeanno]

I'm not sure why any encampment would have a "Command Chief."  I would argue that the encampment is set up as a Cadet Training GROUP, not a wing.  It would seem odd to have the "Cadet Training Wing" report to "Nebraska Wing."  Therefore, the Chief with the diamond should be a First Sergeant, in all cases.

[RobertAmphibian]

Definitely as Chief. In the C&C pamphlet, it says pretty bluntly that cadets are to be addressed by grade. Nowhere in our regulations is anything that suggests that we should address First Sergeants as "First Sergeant."

[coudano]

I'm not sure why any encampment would have a "Command Chief."  I would argue that the encampment is set up as a Cadet Training GROUP, not a wing.  It would seem odd to have the "Cadet Training Wing" report to "Nebraska Wing."  Therefore, the Chief with the diamond should be a First Sergeant, in all cases.

There have been CTW's out there...

Minimally speaking, I suppose 2 groups,
4 squadrons,
8 flights,

7 cadets per flight would be 56 basics
31 "line" staff plus an XO and support staff...

That seems a little silly, but not infeasible.
That same line and support staff structure could accommodate up to 384 basic cadets...



The cadet training structure is all subordinate to the encampment commander, which falls under the 'wing commander'
It's not like the CTG 'group commander' reports to the 'wing commander' like that

[Al Sayre]

Per CAPP-151 pg 15:

• Cadets address fellow cadet airmen and NCOs by grade and last
name (ie: Airman Curry, Sergeant Arnold).
• Cadets address cadet officers and senior members by grade or as
"Sir" or "Ma'am."
• Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the
noble title, "Cadet."

[lordmonar]

Call him/her Chief. First Sergeant is a position not a title.

+1

For all those cadets who demand that they be called "First Sergeant"....I make them refer to me by my duty positions......."Good Afternoon Operations Officers!"

[arajca]

Call him/her Chief. First Sergeant is a position not a title.

+1

For all those cadets who demand that they be called "First Sergeant"....I make them refer to me by my duty positions......."Good Afternoon Operations Officers!"

Oh my God! There's more than one of you!

[Spaceman3750]

I think a cadet who addressed me by my duty position would run out of air and pass out before he finished.

[lordmonar]

I think a cadet who addressed me by my duty position would run out of air and pass out before he finished.

I don't know....those little buggers have got some lungs on them! 

[RobertAmphibian]

I mean, I know that a lot of people would like to defer to the practice of the Air Force...too bad the regs are too easy to read here.

[lordmonar]

I mean, I know that a lot of people would like to defer to the practice of the Air Force...too bad the regs are too easy to read here.

In my 22 years on AD I never addressed my first sergeant as "frist sergeant".  It was always sir, or chief.....maybe shirt.....but never "First Sergeant".

[RobertAmphibian]

Ah, I guess another "this is the way the real military does it" myth has slipped into the Cadet Program...I can't tell you the number of times I've heard that as an excuse for addressing cadets as "First Sergeant."

[Spaceman3750]

Our first sergeant seems adamant about saluting our cadet commander who is junior in grade to him (long story).

[Extremepredjudice]

Our first sergeant seems adamant about saluting our cadet commander who is junior in grade to him (long story).

So the Cadet Commander is a NCO?

[Short Field]

Ah, I guess another "this is the way the real military does it" myth has slipped into the Cadet Program...I can't tell you the number of times I've heard that as an excuse for addressing cadets as "First Sergeant."

Cross service pollution from members of other services who join CAP and then try to make the auxiliary of the USAF match what they had in the USA/USN/USMC etc.

[Spaceman3750]

Our first sergeant seems adamant about saluting our cadet commander who is junior in grade to him (long story).

So the Cadet Commander is a NCO?

Yup. It's allowed, just not advisable.

[Extremepredjudice]

Our first sergeant seems adamant about saluting our cadet commander who is junior in grade to him (long story).

So the Cadet Commander is a NCO?

Yup. It's allowed, just not advisable.

I know it is allowed, but why does the other sergeant think he needs to salute a sergeant?

[Spaceman3750]

Our first sergeant seems adamant about saluting our cadet commander who is junior in grade to him (long story).

So the Cadet Commander is a NCO?

Yup. It's allowed, just not advisable.

I know it is allowed, but why does the other sergeant think he needs to salute a sergeant?

Something about saluting the commander regardless.... I don't know, but I also haven't looked it up. I'm also not the CDC, so if she's fine with it so be it.

[Dracosbane]

First sergeants are generally called first shirt, shirt, top, chief, or sergeant.  There are different times or situations that require different forms of address. 

"Hey, Top." 
"Hey, Chief."
"Hey, Sergeant."
"Sergeant Snuffy..."
"Go see the First Shirt."  Etc.

[Nathan]

The only time I called first sergeants "first sergeant" is when I was specifically looking to identify them amongst the staff. I also actually called my C/XO "exo" and so forth.

Then again, I'm a dork.

[Major Lord]

Calling out loudly "First Sergeant" is a handy way of finding the guy in charge amongst a sea of tiny blue people....

Major Lord

[DakRadz]

Call him/her Chief. First Sergeant is a position not a title.

+1

For all those cadets who demand that they be called "First Sergeant"....I make them refer to me by my duty positions......."Good Afternoon Operations Officers!"

This will be used at my next encampment.
I wonder if I can get them to approve me as a Reserve Assistant Medical Officer in addition to my main duty just for the halibut.

[titanII]

I wonder if I can get them to approve me as a Reserve Assistant Medical Officer in addition to my main duty just for the halibut.

[Major Lord]

Call him/her Chief. First Sergeant is a position not a title.

+1

For all those cadets who demand that they be called "First Sergeant"....I make them refer to me by my duty positions......."Good Afternoon Operations Officers!"

This will be used at my next encampment.
I wonder if I can get them to approve me as a Reserve Assistant Medical Officer in addition to my main duty just for the halibut.

Would we have to call you " RAMO"?

Major Lord

[Nathan]

Calling out loudly "First Sergeant" is a handy way of finding the guy in charge amongst a sea of tiny blue people....

Major Lord

It's an excellent way of finding the First Sergeant...

Especially when is last name is Jones...

[DakRadz]

Call him/her Chief. First Sergeant is a position not a title.

+1

For all those cadets who demand that they be called "First Sergeant"....I make them refer to me by my duty positions......."Good Afternoon Operations Officers!"

This will be used at my next encampment.
I wonder if I can get them to approve me as a Reserve Assistant Medical Officer in addition to my main duty just for the halibut.

Would we have to call you " RAMO"?

Major Lord

I noticed that, and wanted to see if others caught it- and no, no abbreviations of my positions are allowed

[SaBeR33]

I mean, I know that a lot of people would like to defer to the practice of the Air Force...too bad the regs are too easy to read here.

In my 22 years on AD I never addressed my first sergeant as "frist sergeant".  It was always sir, or chief.....maybe shirt.....but never "First Sergeant".

It was the same for me during my eight years in the USAF, although I never had a CMSgt for a First Sergeant.

[PHall]

I mean, I know that a lot of people would like to defer to the practice of the Air Force...too bad the regs are too easy to read here.

In my 22 years on AD I never addressed my first sergeant as "frist sergeant".  It was always sir, or chief.....maybe shirt.....but never "First Sergeant".

It was the same for me during my eight years in the USAF, although I never had a CMSgt for a First Sergeant.

You need a very large unit, like over 400 personnel assigned to have the First Sergeant position be a E9 slot.

The size of a unit determines the grade the First Sergeant is authorized.

If you have under 25 enlisted in a squadron you're not even authorized a "full time" First Sergeant.
Somebody, usually the NCOIC, gets to be a "part time" First Sergeant.

[Abby.L]

My 2 cents: If a cadet has been appointed to a particular position, you should respect that, from both up and down the chain of command. I call the XO in my squadron "XO," and so I expect the same respect. Though if I were working some event composed of other squadrons, I would happily respond to "Chief". But at the squadron, I take nothing but "1st Sergeant" or other names for "1st sergeant". But that's just me.

[tsrup]

I've been put in a position of authority so the best way I can set an example is to do whatever I want regardless of what the regulations say.

FTFY

[Abby.L]

I've been put in a position of authority so the best way I can set an example is to do whatever I want regardless of what the regulations say.

FTFY

Hold up there. It's not fair to the many 1st Sergeants around the nation to be accused of such a thing. I do the job that the squadron commander wants me to do, and RARELY just go off on my own whim. I clear pretty much everything with said commander, as a 1st sergeant should do, and assume that all of us Shirts are just there for the "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt" is just so disrespectful. I do know of shirts who would do that, and that makes me die a lil' inside, but we're not all the same. And as far as regs are concerned, I feel it as being a necasary and wide-spread "Lack of support" for the regs, and I would not mind if it remained so.

On a different note, what is "FTFY"?

[tsrup]

I've been put in a position of authority so the best way I can set an example is to do whatever I want regardless of what the regulations say.

FTFY

Hold up there. It's not fair to the many 1st Sergeants around the nation to be accused of such a thing. I do the job that the squadron commander wants me to do, and RARELY just go off on my own whim. I clear pretty much everything with said commander, as a 1st sergeant should do, and assume that all of us Shirts are just there for the "Been there, done that, got the t-shirt" is just so disrespectful. I do know of shirts who would do that, and that makes me die a lil' inside, but we're not all the same.
And as far as regs are concerned, I feel it as being a necasary and wide-spread "Lack of support" for the regs, and I would not mind if it remained so.

On a different note, what is "FTFY"?

This is the attitude I was mostly talking about here:

But at the squadron, I take nothing but "1st Sergeant" or other names for "1st sergeant". But that's just me.

And FTFY means "Fixed That For You"

[Abby.L]

As far as I've interpreted, what you stated was that all 1st Sergeants go off willy-nilly to troll for some unknown cause without telling their commanders. Far as I'm concerned, that is just not true. As stated, I respect my commander enough to ask him about what to do on all but what I know I can do. Also stated, I acknowledge that there are 1st Sergeants out there willing to do whatever they wanted. I shun such behavior. The main reason that I only take 1st Sergeant at the squadron is because the cadets need to learn the ranks if they really want to go into the AF. Also in this, cadets need to respect their superiors, as they have a hard enough time saluting every time an officer passes by, so this is an assistance. Besides, in the case that we have a visitor, how much easier would it be to refer to "The guy with the diamond in his chevrons" as "1st Sergeant" than "The guy with the diamond in his chevrons"? Or are you suggesting that we should enforce the regs and get rid of all 1st Sergeants, and then have visitors go to the most senior NCO, of whom would have otherwise been 1st Sergeant?

[tsrup]

As far as I've interpreted, what you stated was that all 1st Sergeants go off willy-nilly to troll for some unknown cause without telling their commanders. Far as I'm concerned, that is just not true. As stated, I respect my commander enough to ask him about what to do on all but what I know I can do. Also stated, I acknowledge that there are 1st Sergeants out there willing to do whatever they wanted. I shun such behavior. The main reason that I only take 1st Sergeant at the squadron is because the cadets need to learn the ranks if they really want to go into the AF. Also in this, cadets need to respect their superiors, as they have a hard enough time saluting every time an officer passes by, so this is an assistance. Besides, in the case that we have a visitor, how much easier would it be to refer to "The guy with the diamond in his chevrons" as "1st Sergeant" than "The guy with the diamond in his chevrons"? Or are you suggesting that we should enforce the regs and get rid of all 1st Sergeants, and then have visitors go to the most senior NCO, of whom would have otherwise been 1st Sergeant?

There is a huge difference between identifying someone as the First Sergeant, or calling someone first shirt; and demanding that you only be called First Sergeant.

One is okay, one is not.  I'll let you figure it out.

And you seem to be under the impression that I have an axe to grind with 1st Sergeants.  Not true.  I have an axe to grind with the attitude of "I'm more specialler than you and I demand that you.. (insert something that isn't in accordance with regulations)".

[Abby.L]

That's what I'm talking about. People seem to be under the impression that ALL 1st Sergeants are like that. I have no opinion that I am "Speciallar," but I know my duties and excell in them, which may or may not make me more special. Am I special because I show up to EVERY meeting? Am I special because I work EVERY event? Am I special because I'm the first shirt? Answer to all: No. But I am dedicated in what I do, and I will continue to be so until school or parents force me out, and I would go out fighting.

[davidsinn]

That's what I'm talking about. People seem to be under the impression that ALL 1st Sergeants are like that. I have no opinion that I am "Speciallar," but I know my duties and excell in them, which may or may not make me more special. Am I special because I show up to EVERY meeting? Am I special because I work EVERY event? Am I special because I'm the first shirt? Answer to all: No. But I am dedicated in what I do, and I will continue to be so until school or parents force me out, and I would go out fighting.

We're under the impression that you are like that because you stated you will only accept being called 1st sergeant when the regs quite clearly say otherwise. Also it appears that you wear the diamond in your chevrons. That is also not allowed any longer.

[Salty]

As a point of reference, when I was in the USAF, the First Sergeant was called by his/her rank or addressed as sir/ma'am.  I've never seen anybody call the First Sergeant by that title.  The only time the First Sergeant was called that was if you were referring to the position.

[lordmonar]

My 2 cents: If a cadet has been appointed to a particular position, you should respect that, from both up and down the chain of command. I call the XO in my squadron "XO," and so I expect the same respect. Though if I were working some event composed of other squadrons, I would happily respond to "Chief". But at the squadron, I take nothing but "1st Sergeant" or other names for "1st sergeant". But that's just me.

There is a difference between calling your XO "hey XO can you look at this" and having all your cadets saying "Yes XO!" "No XO!" when reporting or in formation.

In the context that the OP put it.....if the XO/CCF/CC asks a question....you respond with "sir/ma'am" or maybe "Sgt" or "Chief".....but not by their duty title.

[SarDragon]

My commander when I was with 99/OS/NHQ-113 was the First Shirt of the base services squadron. Never in all the times that I visited his office during working hours did I ever hear him addressed as First Sergeant. It was his rank, or sir, or, in a very few instances, his first name.

[Abby.L]

This goes into something that was said earlier. How would you identify the first sergeant in a group of SNCOs? I understand that it's not in the regs, but some rules need to be broken. Also, the Primary reason that I take nothing but "1st Sergeant" is not because it sounds cool, as some would say, but because it is necisary to distinguish myself from the other NCOs. As well, my commander will not accept anyone not calling me 1st Sergeant. So would it not be something that, if you REALLY wanted to fix, would have to be fixed in the higher echelons? And I find that kinda weird that no one in your Wing/Squadron/Ect. called the 1st Sergeant by that title. That's not something I would expect. But we are CAP, and although we are associated with the Air Force, we hold different traditions. This is why you see ribbons on the blues shirt, why you hear "1st Sergeant" at encampment, and why you shun the lack of polish on some cadet's shoes. These are all traditions(or nightmares) that we have that the Air Force does not. Is there anything wrong with this? No, as we are a different organization.

[Salty]

The diamond is how you'd know.

[MIKE]

Diamonds not authorized.

[Salty]

Any particular reason why it isn't?

[Abby.L]

I understand the diamond, but as Davidsinn said earlier, the diamond is not within regulations. So in a world where all regs are upheld, how would we know? Just describe him/her to whoever needs him/her?

...Or.... We could learn that a little rule breaking is fine with the intention of assisting the cadets in the learning process, and allowing people to find the Shirt easily?

[Extremepredjudice]

Any particular reason why it isn't?

It was taken out.

Calling the 1st sergeant by his title is also a sogn of respect. It is tradition, also.

[Abby.L]

Any particular reason why it isn't?

It was taken out.

Calling the 1st sergeant by his title is also a sogn of respect. It is tradition, also.

That's why I do what I do. And yea, it was taken out. But I'll wear 'em till I get officer.

[lordmonar]

This goes into something that was said earlier. How would you identify the first sergeant in a group of SNCOs? I understand that it's not in the regs, but some rules need to be broken. Also, the Primary reason that I take nothing but "1st Sergeant" is not because it sounds cool, as some would say, but because it is necisary to distinguish myself from the other NCOs. As well, my commander will not accept anyone not calling me 1st Sergeant. So would it not be something that, if you REALLY wanted to fix, would have to be fixed in the higher echelons? And I find that kinda weird that no one in your Wing/Squadron/Ect. called the 1st Sergeant by that title. That's not something I would expect. But we are CAP, and although we are associated with the Air Force, we hold different traditions. This is why you see ribbons on the blues shirt, why you hear "1st Sergeant" at encampment, and why you shun the lack of polish on some cadet's shoes. These are all traditions(or nightmares) that we have that the Air Force does not. Is there anything wrong with this? No, as we are a different organization.

Okay.  On a certain level you are correct.....there is a time an place to say "this regulation/directive/order is stupid" and to do the right thing.

Having said that.....it takes years of learning the regs, the organisation and your command to know when you can do this.
My point is as CADET CMSgt you do not.......I SAY AGAIN......do not have that level of expertise and/or maturity to start going into that area of leadership.

Before YOU get yourself....or more importantly your commander into trouble.....follow the regs as written.  Any questions you problems you encounter should be take to your deputy commander for cadets or squadron commander.  Let them make the call and then press on.

End of lecture.

[Salty]

Ideally I'd have the shirt make it a point to make himself/herself known to new and old cadets constantly.  I'd probably do this by having the shirt brief the cadets once or twice a month as a reminder of who the shirt is, what their job is, and how the shirt is there to help them.  I think all this could be done without the need to have to refer to the shirt by position title instead of rank.

When I was the cadet commander of my squadron my cadets referred to me by rank not as cadet commander.

I'm not opposed to calling the shirt by his title but I think the rank carries more weight than the appointed position and I don't think it should be mandatory to call the shirt by his title.

[tsrup]

Any particular reason why it isn't?

It was taken out.

Calling the 1st sergeant by his title is also a sogn of respect. It is tradition, also.

That's why I'm special, and I'll continue to break the regulations, just so nobody forgets.

FTFY,
again.

[SarDragon]

Levilockling, I think you need to sit back and consider that you are addressing a crowd with dozens of years of CAP and military experience, far outweighing yours. Your world view seems to be very narrow, and colored by your own perceived awesomeness.

Just because you think something is kool, or even right, doesn't make it so. Many of us, in our youth probably had similar views, but learned, sooner than later, that the wisdom shared by our peers and mentors was good to pay attention to. I's not seeing that you have done this yet. Carrying an attitude like this into the adult world is going to reach right up and bite you in the ass.

Relax, learn the rules, and how to follow them, and become a good example for those around you, instead of the bad one you are now.

[Extremepredjudice]

Levilockling, I think you need to sit back and consider that you are addressing a crowd with dozens of years of CAP and military experience, far outweighing yours. Your world view seems to be very narrow, and colored by your own perceived awesomeness.

Just because you think something is kool, or even right, doesn't make it so. Many of us, in our youth probably had similar views, but learned, sooner than later, that the wisdom shared by our peers and mentors was good to pay attention to. I's not seeing that you have done this yet. Carrying an attitude like this into the adult world is going to reach right up and bite you in the ass.

Relax, learn the rules, and how to follow them, and become a good example for those around you, instead of the bad one you are now.

sir,

Just because you are older doesn't mean you are always right. Yes you have had more experiences, but everyone is wrong sometimes. Sometimes the regs can be wrong. Believe it or not.

[tsrup]

Levilockling, I think you need to sit back and consider that you are addressing a crowd with dozens of years of CAP and military experience, far outweighing yours. Your world view seems to be very narrow, and colored by your own perceived awesomeness.

Just because you think something is kool, or even right, doesn't make it so. Many of us, in our youth probably had similar views, but learned, sooner than later, that the wisdom shared by our peers and mentors was good to pay attention to. I's not seeing that you have done this yet. Carrying an attitude like this into the adult world is going to reach right up and bite you in the ass.

Relax, learn the rules, and how to follow them, and become a good example for those around you, instead of the bad one you are now.

sir,

Just because you are older doesn't mean you are always right. Yes you have had more experiences, but everyone is wrong sometimes. Sometimes the regs can be wrong. Believe it or not.

But this is not one of those times.

And it is the duty of the First Sergeant (and all those in positions of authority) to carry out the regulations as written regardless of personal opinion.  That's part of being an adult. 

If there is a problem with the regulation, forward it up the chain of command for review. 

[SarDragon]

Levilockling, I think you need to sit back and consider that you are addressing a crowd with dozens of years of CAP and military experience, far outweighing yours. Your world view seems to be very narrow, and colored by your own perceived awesomeness.

Just because you think something is kool, or even right, doesn't make it so. Many of us, in our youth probably had similar views, but learned, sooner than later, that the wisdom shared by our peers and mentors was good to pay attention to. I's not seeing that you have done this yet. Carrying an attitude like this into the adult world is going to reach right up and bite you in the ass.

Relax, learn the rules, and how to follow them, and become a good example for those around you, instead of the bad one you are now.

sir,

Just because you are older doesn't mean you are always right. Yes you have had more experiences, but everyone is wrong sometimes. Sometimes the regs can be wrong. Believe it or not.

Just because you, and perhaps others, believe that a reg is wrong, doesn't give you, or anyone at your, or my, level license to ignore or disobey it. That's that integrity thing in the Core Values.

[lordmonar]

Levilockling, I think you need to sit back and consider that you are addressing a crowd with dozens of years of CAP and military experience, far outweighing yours. Your world view seems to be very narrow, and colored by your own perceived awesomeness.

Just because you think something is kool, or even right, doesn't make it so. Many of us, in our youth probably had similar views, but learned, sooner than later, that the wisdom shared by our peers and mentors was good to pay attention to. I's not seeing that you have done this yet. Carrying an attitude like this into the adult world is going to reach right up and bite you in the ass.

Relax, learn the rules, and how to follow them, and become a good example for those around you, instead of the bad one you are now.

sir,

Just because you are older doesn't mean you are always right. Yes you have had more experiences, but everyone is wrong sometimes. Sometimes the regs can be wrong. Believe it or not.

Nope....you are absolutely right......just because we are old does not mean we are right.
But we have been there done that and got the kick in the butt for being wrong when we were young and dumb.
Our advice is just that.  Advice....take it or leave it.....we are only trying to help you avoid the pitfalls we fell into way back when the dinosaurs ruled the world.

Blowing off our advices just because a bunch of old farts on CAPTALK gave it to you is just as stupid as us old guys ignoring inovation because it comes from new guy/kid.

Where the problem lies....it the choice of tactics being used.  If you want to quote "how the real USAF does it" or "tradition" then you have to listen to the words of wisdom from those who have BTDT and lived and some cases created those traditions.

Bottom line as SarDragon said is that if you carry over your big frog in a little pond into the real world you are going to get slapped down....sometimes very hard.

We simply would like you to learn that lesson here where the hurt is small and manageable.

YMMV.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, I get what you are trying to say, and I respect you and other captalk users. I take your opinions and advice seriously, and try and change my behavior/attitude (when applicable)

That said, I wonder what 1st sergeants at encampment will think when I tell them they are wearing unauthorized acrouments. Or that I don't have to call 'em 1st shirt.

There is a time when it matters, and a time you should just go with the flow. A time to stand up, and a time to run away and hide... 

In the grand scheme of things, does calling a chief first sergeant matter? It isn't the end of the world.


Besides, many of you said you called your first sergeants (in the military) by 1st shirt/shirt. Shirt/1st shirt are relatively the same as first sergeant. Everyone calls their 1st shirt something different. My squadron calls ours dad.(it is a color guard thing)

[lordmonar]

The point is that you may be, from time to time, to do things that are stupid and/or wrong.

That's life.

At encampment you can a) refuse to play the game and stand your ground on the basis of regulations and take what ever lumps come with it.  b) Void your integrity and follow along and purpetuate wrong practices and faulty ideas....and take what ever lumps come with that. c) something in between.  Choosing which fights to fight and establishing where you personal integrity lies and do what you got to do to survive the experince....and take the lumps that come with it.

This too is also life.

What you do when you go home it the most important part.

Just because the encampment first sergeant wants you to yell "yes first sergeant!" does not mean you must bring that back home with you.
Just because Squadron X sports the first sergeant diamond on SSgt stripes does not mean you have to as well.
PAWG sports a whole lot of ranger bling......I don't waste my time moaning about it.....but when one of those guys transfers to my unit.....off it comes.

Does any of this matter?  Not in the big scheme of things.  Levilocking wants to be called FIRST SERGEANT.....okay it ain't going to end the world.  But he is wrong and I will tell him so.  If his reasoning can't stand up to a CAPTALK rebuffing......then his attitude is going to get him into trouble some day....again....that's life.

And once again.....here is a difference between refering to the guy who holds the job as "first sergeant/shirt/top/what ever" and using in place of when you should be saying "sir/ma'am/sergeant/Chief".

Every summer following encampment I have to retrain my cadets.....they are always yelling "yes First Sergeant" and the like.
If you need an argument to stop that practice.....you simply have to ask..."why does the first sergeant get a special term of address but the commander/operations officer/deputy commander for senors/adminstration officer/flight commander or flight sergeant don't"?

If they try say tradition you can tell them that three retired military NCO's (one USN and two USAF) have told you in no uncertain terms that it is NOT an USAF tradition.

[SarDragon]

Part of the problem here is underlying attitudes. A "you will or else" pronouncement is NOT the best way to express yourself, particularly when the "way" in not within the regs. A belligerent tone is bad mojo. Most of the "shirt" usage is on a cordial, semi-formal basis.

Similarly, an "in your face" objection at encampment isn't going to make your week as much fun as it might have been. As has been noted, you need to know how to pick your battles, AND how to fight them, so that both sides gain in the end.

[RobertAmphibian]

Seeing something like this at encampment is a great example of how to make an improvement to the cadet program.

At my basic encampment, I was taught that shirts were always addressed as "First Sergeant", and this matched what I saw at my home squadron. As I progressed through the Cadet NCO grades, I did a little research and found out that cadets should be addressed by grade. I had a conversation with my C/CC, and it was corrected at my home squadron.

I've staffed a few encampments, and I've personally ensured that the staff understands the C&C regulations. Shirts are always addressed as "Sergeant" or "Chief" now. It's a cool feeling, knowing that I busted a myth.

Don't use "well, encampment is gonna do it" as an excuse not to stray back to the side of regulation.

[Skydude61]

Always "1st Sergeant" from both experience and regs. except at encampment.... sometimes the 1st sarge from your squadron will wear their diamonds.... confusing as $#!+, cause then they are "chief".... and the encampment first sergeants will get pissed at you if they hear you call your first sarge "first sergeant"...

[davidsinn]

Always "1st Sergeant" from both experience and regs.

What reg? I've already cited a reg that states the exact opposite of what you claim.

[Skydude61]

I don't know, I've been yelled at.... encampment.....he cited a reg. This may not exist... and what reg says otherwise?

[davidsinn]

I don't know, I've been yelled at.... encampment.....he cited a reg. This may not exist... and what reg says otherwise?

P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

[SARDOC]

P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

First, CAPP 151...Not a Reg.

Second, Their are times even in CAPP 151 when certain people are addressed by Title.

[HGjunkie]

Hold up a second here.

Please don't tell me everyone is arguing over what a Pamphlet says.... (Which pamphlets aren't mentioned in the Bylaws as being regulatory anyways, and are mostly used as guidebooks/ handbooks)

Guys?

[davidsinn]

P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

First, CAPP 151...Not a Reg.

Second, Their are times even in CAPP 151 when certain people are addressed by Title.

Such as?

Hold up a second here.

Please don't tell me everyone is arguing over what a Pamphlet says.... (Which pamphlets aren't mentioned in the Bylaws as being regulatory anyways, and are mostly used as guidebooks/ handbooks)

Guys?

Just because it's a pamphlet does not mean you can ignore it at will. Since it's the only publication that talks about C&C, it stands to reason that P151 is, "the way it is."

[HGjunkie]

Just because it's a pamphlet does not mean you can ignore it at will. Since it's the only publication that talks about C&C, it stands to reason that P151 is, "the way it is."

Then wouldn't it stand within reason that slight modification of the material in the manual to fit the situation would be okay?
The pamphlet itself is written in the way (IMO) where it can be added to on a local basis, within reason.


I'm not just talking about the First Sergeant thing, but also points like customs and courtesies for situations that can happen frequently and aren't addressed in the pamphlet. I take it as if it seems reasonable, and your Command approves of it, then it's okay to add things such as area-specific C&C clauses, and to add the infamous "First Sergeant" Clause.

[SARDOC]

P151. We have also pointed out the absurdity of addressing someone by their title instead of their rank.

First, CAPP 151...Not a Reg.

Second, Their are times even in CAPP 151 when certain people are addressed by Title.

Such as?

Hold up a second here.

Please don't tell me everyone is arguing over what a Pamphlet says.... (Which pamphlets aren't mentioned in the Bylaws as being regulatory anyways, and are mostly used as guidebooks/ handbooks)

Guys?

Just because it's a pamphlet does not mean you can ignore it at will. Since it's the only publication that talks about C&C, it stands to reason that P151 is, "the way it is."

Such as CAPP 151 P. 15

Senior members may address cadets by grade or simply by the noble title, "Cadet."

and

Chaplains are commonly referred to by title and last name (ie: Chaplain Baldwin). 

As far as Pamphlets are concerned CAPR 5-4 Specifically defines Pamphlets as

i. "Pamphlets"  are nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies. 

This is the Suggested way that Customs and Courtesies should be handled within Civil Air Patrol but I wouldn't be heavy handed with it.  Customs and Courtesies are meant to show respect and I don't see it as a breach if someone is addressed by Title.  I guess that comes from my Navy background where is was pretty common.  I also don't see anything that in CAPP 151 that prohibits it...Just that it might, maybe more appropriate to use rank.   There is nothing here to get bent outta shape about.

[Spaceman3750]

That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.

[SARDOC]

That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.

That's it...Where is your Dedication to the organization Mister???

[JeffDG]

That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.

What, no "Assistant" roles?

[JeffDG]

That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.

That's it...Where is your Dedication to the organization Mister???

[lmgtfy]et. al.[/lmgtfy]

[BillB]

I'm sorry, I've read 20-1 three times this morning and I can not find a job discription for an et.al. Must be a Wing title.

[Spaceman3750]

That's it, after hearing all this I demand to be referred to as:

Deputy Commander for Seniors Group Emergency Services Officer Squadron Emergency Services Officer Logistics Officer Professional Development Officer (et. al.) Bagodoughnuts.

And yes, that is a true list of my duty assignments. Including et. al.

That's it...Where is your Dedication to the organization Mister???

[lmgtfy]et. al.[/lmgtfy]

I must be missing your joke.