Activity patch auhorization.

[RogueLeader]

I had a brain fart, and can't find the line that authorizes Wing Commanders to allow special activity patches to be worn IAW CAPM 39-1.  IE the CCOC patch.  Any help will be appreciated .

[arajca]

It does not exist. They cannot authorize local activity patches.

[BillB]

Who authorized all those Hawk patches for those many years? I mean prior to the NB giving the OK.

[arajca]

They weren't authorized, but remember who you're talking about. Authorized or not doesn't matter to them, they'll do what they dang well please.

[SARDOC]

At least it wasn't authorized in accordance with regulations...they probably did have someone somewhere...say "Sure, why the heck not"

[Eclipse]

It requires a supplement to 39-1.

[jimmydeanno]

There was a recent addition that allows NCSA credit for anything that NHQ deems as an NCSA (as opposed to the specified list that left half the new activities out).  I haven't looked, but would venture to guess that it would also authorize the patches from any of those official NCSAs to also qualify for wear.

However, CCOC doesn't qualify under either rule.

[sarmed1]

They weren't authorized, but remember who you're talking about. Authorized or not doesn't matter to them, they'll do what they dang well please

just to tip the gas can over a little....they arent the only ones to pull that one, and more recently I remmeber TXWG "authorizing" the Columbia Disaster Patch for any participants of the mission for wear on BDU's on the Right shoulder.   "...well the Wing Commander said we could....." and somewhere I remember some wing authorizing its encampment grads to wear the "encampment" patch on thier left pocket in place of the squadron patch.......

mk

[lordmonar]

Yep.

The old argument.

The individual member is NOT wrong for following the orders and instructions of his/her superiors.

The fact that you and I may disagree with that superior's authority to make that call or not is moot unless we are in their chain of command.

Yes we can say that the individual should RTFM and have the maturity/experince/knowledge to properly understand them and the personal integrity and courage to "go against the grain" and do the "right" thing.

But we all know that that is a tall order.

Half the members of CAP are cadets.
IIRC the median Time In Service in CAP is something like 5 years.
The "old hands" carry a lot of weight.
People don't have the time/inclination to read the source regs.....the listen to their mentors and trust what they say is the way things are done.
Add to this the few people who should/do know better and do what they want anyways.

The ONLY fix to the problem is:

A) Rewrite the regulation to be easy to read, clear in it instructions.
B) A TOP DOWN effort to comply and enforce the regulations. 

It does almost nothing for me to try to enforce the regulations at my squadron if the next squadron over ignores it.  If the wing is telling them something different, then my credibilty is all that much more compromised.

[Eclipse]

The individual member is NOT wrong for following the orders and instructions of his/her superiors.

The fact that you and I may disagree with that superior's authority to make that call or not is moot unless we are in their chain of command.

I agree, but only up to the moment the member is informed of the regulatory facts and that their superior is issuing a directive outside their authority,
at which time the member should act according to the regs.

[RogueLeader]

CAPM 39-1 Table 6-4, note 2 is the answer.

[SARDOC]

CAPM 39-1 Table 6-4, note 2 is the answer.

I did find that interesting as well.  The only patches that seem to be authorized on the uniform are the Optional Unit patches if authorized according Fig 2-17 note number 9.  All the patch worthy uniforms say all patches and placement must be in accordance with tables 6-2 and 6-4 respectively. Table 6-4 item 10 says unit patches must be authorized by the Wing Commander those must be sent to NHQ.

I think this is probably easier though

1-4. How to Recommend Changes to the Uniform.   New or changed uniform items may not be
authorized without approval of the National Commander/National Board and/or National Headquarters
(except as specified in Table 1-3 of this manual). Unit commanders will forward recommended changes
to the uniform, accessories, or related items through channels to National Headquarters/LMM for
evaluation.  Suggestions not recommended for adoption by the wing or region commander should not be
forwarded to National Headquarters.

Table 1-3.  Additional Items That May Be Authorized by the Wing/Region Commander
   Item  Information
1  General Wing/region commanders may authorize certain items to be worn for specific
purposes within their respective wing/region or within specific units of their
wing/region.  Commanders will not use this authority to circumvent National
polices.[sic]  Examples of purposes of these items are to identify members of
special CAP groups such as drill teams, bands, color guards, and members
participating in emergency services’ missions.
2    Where and When Worn
In all cases, these items will have no national significance or recognition as a
part of the CAP uniform.  They will not be worn at summer encampments or
national events (cadet exchange, special activities, etc.), unless specifically
authorized by National Headquarters.  They may be worn only while
performing the duty for which the use of the items was authorized. 
Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the
authorizing commander.
3 Items That May Be Authorized
The wing/region commander has authority to approve the following items for
wear within his/her wing: (a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder
cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see
Figure 5-2).  Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all
primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National
level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP
Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear
white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords; (b)
scarves; (c) white gloves; (d) white and black belts; (e) helmet liners.  Color to
be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for
wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white
and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.
4 Berets Only blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear.  Berets provided
at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.
NOTES:
1. Service dress trousers/slacks should not be bloused at any time.
2. Only items and colors listed in this table may be authorized.
3. Region commanders must approve items authorized by wing commanders in coordination with
National Headquarters.

Activity patches are not authorized even with a wing /region 39-1 supplement.  Supplements should be used to authorize those items the Wing/Region Commander have the authority to change/alter.

[Eclipse]

Well...if a Region CC is approving "x" in coordination with National, then there really isn't any circuvention, right?

[lordmonar]

The individual member is NOT wrong for following the orders and instructions of his/her superiors.

The fact that you and I may disagree with that superior's authority to make that call or not is moot unless we are in their chain of command.

I agree, but only up to the moment the member is informed of the regulatory facts and that their superior is issuing a directive outside their authority,
at which time the member should act according to the regs.

Nope.

Unless you are the commander's commander (i.e. in his chain of command) you can't countermand his orders....you can and should report the commander up the chain but you can't tell cadet X to take off the patch his commander told him to wear.
It is the old ethical dilema of conflicting orders....and the simplest answer is always chain of command over rules just about anything.

[lordmonar]

CAPM 39-1 Table 6-4, note 2 is the answer.

I did find that interesting as well.  The only patches that seem to be authorized on the uniform are the Optional Unit patches if authorized according Fig 2-17 note number 9.  All the patch worthy uniforms say all patches and placement must be in accordance with tables 6-2 and 6-4 respectively. Table 6-4 item 10 says unit patches must be authorized by the Wing Commander those must be sent to NHQ.

I think this is probably easier though

1-4. How to Recommend Changes to the Uniform.   New or changed uniform items may not be
authorized without approval of the National Commander/National Board and/or National Headquarters
(except as specified in Table 1-3 of this manual). Unit commanders will forward recommended changes
to the uniform, accessories, or related items through channels to National Headquarters/LMM for
evaluation.  Suggestions not recommended for adoption by the wing or region commander should not be
forwarded to National Headquarters.

Table 1-3.  Additional Items That May Be Authorized by the Wing/Region Commander
   Item  Information
1  General Wing/region commanders may authorize certain items to be worn for specific
purposes within their respective wing/region or within specific units of their
wing/region.  Commanders will not use this authority to circumvent National
polices.[sic]  Examples of purposes of these items are to identify members of
special CAP groups such as drill teams, bands, color guards, and members
participating in emergency services' missions.
2    Where and When Worn
In all cases, these items will have no national significance or recognition as a
part of the CAP uniform.  They will not be worn at summer encampments or
national events (cadet exchange, special activities, etc.), unless specifically
authorized by National Headquarters.  They may be worn only while
performing the duty for which the use of the items was authorized. 
Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the
authorizing commander.
3 Items That May Be Authorized
The wing/region commander has authority to approve the following items for
wear within his/her wing: (a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder
cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see
Figure 5-2).  Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all
primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National
level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP
Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear
white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords; (b)
scarves; (c) white gloves; (d) white and black belts; (e) helmet liners.  Color to
be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for
wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white
and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.
4 Berets Only blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear.  Berets provided
at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.
NOTES:
1. Service dress trousers/slacks should not be bloused at any time.
2. Only items and colors listed in this table may be authorized.
3. Region commanders must approve items authorized by wing commanders in coordination with
National Headquarters.

Activity patches are not authorized even with a wing /region 39-1 supplement.  Supplements should be used to authorize those items the Wing/Region Commander have the authority to change/alter.

That is the dumbest rule I have ever heard!

Wing commander may authorise with region commander's approval in coordination with NHQ?

So the commander can't authorise anything and the region commander can only authorise something "in coordination" with NHQ...what ever that means?

It is this language that just makes me hat 39-1! 

[Eclipse]

Unless you are the commander's commander (i.e. in his chain of command) you can't countermand his orders....you can and should report the commander up the chain but you can't tell cadet X to take off the patch his commander told him to wear.
It is the old ethical dilema of conflicting orders....and the simplest answer is always chain of command over rules just about anything.

That's both too legalistic, simplistic, and why we are in the position we're in.

One commander's misinterpretation of a reg (or simply making things up), does not countermand a regulation or the authority of other commander's in their respective AOR.

Even if you assume a unit CC can be creative during unit meetings, he does not have the authority to authorize something outside the regs for his members when they participate outside their unit (i.e. encampments, missions, etc.)

[lordmonar]

And I agree.

But again.....the "legal" aspect of the chain of command still applies.

Member X is told by wing commander Y that he can wear the patch.

Member Z or even wing commander A and Region Commander B can't countermand that authorization it violates the chain of command (assuming the order was only against regulations and not and Unlawful order).

It puts the member in a no-win scenerio....hence why we teach and follow the concept of chain of command.

If you see that a commander is authorising something against the regulation your duty as a leader is to confront the commander and/or report him to his superior......it is NOT to go around and put his subordinates into the position of disobeying instructions.

This is why I stress that we will never fix these sort of things unless NHQ stands up and starts hammering region and wing commanders who are violating regulations.

[Eclipse]

This is why I stress that we will never fix these sort of things unless NHQ stands up and starts hammering region and wing commanders who are violating regulations.

I agree.  IMHO the best bet would be to dial everything back and reduce or eliminate the ability of Wings to institute anything local, or when they do, that change becomes effective for the entire organization.

Does AKWG need parkas?  Yes.  Would too many people in TXWG wear them?  No, but why not just add it to the arsenal and call it a day?

Want your people to wear a unique hat?  Great, put it on the agenda with the respective NHQ committee. If you get it, we all get it (as an option).
We're all doing the same training for the same missions, in the same way, so we should all be wearing the same things.

Part two of this is all the circular reporting and convoluted chains we generate because we have people serving in multiple roles across wing, regions, nationally, and at NCSA's.  Sometimes you need a scorecard to be able to tell who is the commander at a given event.

[lordmonar]

I disagree.

We don't need to write a regulation or go to a committee everytime a common sense issue comes up.

The wing/group/squadron commander needs to have the ability to authorise what he needs to authorise.

AKWG needs parkas.....he authorises them.  Should be no harm, no foul.  Why should AKWG have to convince a majority of 62 (IIRC) other people that he needs parkas?

AKWG should authorise Parkas or hell even Lime Green Tutus if he wants......the regional commande and the national command and the BoG should be the only ones to say foul!

We are a para military organisation.  Empowerment of our leaders is a key getting the mission done.  By making everthing go through the political (and we all know there is always politics at the NB/NEC level) only slows down getting the important things done.

We MUST.....absolutely MUST back that up with integrity and enforcement.  If the regional commander says no Parkas....and you ignore him.....bye bye wing commander.

[Eclipse]

We're not autonomous in our uniform decisions - we require the input and authorization of the USAF for everything (despite assertions regarding corporate variants), so anything considered should be considered for all or not at all.

If AKWG needs parkas, we should all get them.  A parka needs to be defined and prescribed as to wear, etc.  It gets just as cold in other parts of the country, and just as hot as it does down South, etc.  Since we're all in the Northern Hemisphere, the Sun is basically the same distance from all of us
at any given time, so if a boonie or beret is appropriate for NVWG, then it should be OK for GAWG and WIWG as well.

For the most part Unit CC's or even Wing CC's don't have or need for the authority to do anything local.  No one is doing things that differently.  The assertion that they are is a misunderstanding of the idea of tactical equipment vs. uniform items.

And actually, I don't really have an issue with the idea of local items, but they tend to not stay local, and then members assert they can wear them because "my CC said I can..."  Where does it end.

The easiest way to end the conversation is to end the conversation.