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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Stalls With Passengers
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Jolt
Forum Regular

Posts: 159

« on: January 16, 2007, 10:15:28 PM »

Does anyone know if there's a rule about having a passenger when practicing stalls during primary flight training in CAP aircraft?  I know there's an issue with CG when you have a passenger in the back seat, but if you did the weight and balance correctly, I would think that there wouldn't be too big a problem with elevator authority (but, then again, I'm not a pilot, so I could be all wrong).

My CFI's son is also in CAP and we're the same age and at the same point in our (powered) flight training, so it would be nice to be able to have us both fly together to pick up more from the lesson and so one of us doesn't have to spend an hour and a half at the airport by ourselves.

So... just wondering.
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SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2007, 11:17:42 PM »

I can't find anything in 60-1 that prohibits it, with the exception of the "critical phases of flight" rule, but that doesn't apply since the person manipulating the controls is under the supervision of a CFI. The only pub I can find that says no is in CAPP 52-7, Cadet Orientation Flight Syllabus. Page 18, para 2(c) says that back seat passengers are not allowed during stall demonstrations. But that's for O-flights, not cadet flight training.

I can think of safety reasons why not to do it, mainly that, if something were to go wrong in the stall and you guys bury it in, the two up front being hurt/killed is bad enough, someone in the back being hurt/killed that didn't HAVE to be there is worse.

So the only answer I can really give is, if the CFI believes it to be safe and appropriate, it's ok I guess. I don't recommend it, but at the same time, it's good to experience how the aircraft handles at slow/stall speeds with some load in the back. As long as you're not doing spins or anything.

From one pilot who got his certficate as a cadet to one working on it: good luck, it's a great opportunity, and it puts you ahead of the game if it's something you want to do later in life.
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
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NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)
Al Sayre
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Posts: 2,515
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 10:24:21 AM »

There is a prohibition of doing the stalll profiles in the O'flight syllabus with a passenger on board.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
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JohnKachenmeister
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Posts: 3,352

« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 01:42:45 PM »

It doesn't violate any FAA regulations that I'm aware of.  The only thing that might be a worry is if the pax shifted the W&B enough to take it out of the "Utility" range into the "Transport" range.  I think that may effect stall characteristics somewhat, but not enough that a student pilot shouldn't learn about it, experience it, and recover from it.

That being said, I don't think I've ever done a stall in an airplane with a back-seat passenger.  Can't remember it if I did.
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Another former CAP officer
Pace
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2007, 01:56:01 PM »

That being said, I don't think I've ever done a stall in an airplane with a back-seat passenger.  Can't remember it if I did.
I have.  It's not that big of a difference from a normal stall's characteristics.  And in a Cessna 172, you're not going to be in utility category with a backseat passenger.  Just make sure you're forward of the aft CG limit and not exceeding MTOW.

Doesn't violate FARs or CAPRs (except during O-flights).
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Lt Col, CAP
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BillB
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2007, 02:14:37 PM »

It does violate FAR's if you are both student pilots, which it appears from your post you may be. Student pilots can't carry passengers.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104
Al Sayre
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Mississippi Wing
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2007, 02:25:44 PM »

It does violate FAR's if you are both student pilots, which it appears from your post you may be. Student pilots can't carry passengers.

To continue:  Even if both of them are solo qualified in the aircraft.  When one is at the controls, the other is a passenger which is illegal.  Now if you are talking about riding in the back with a CFI and Student Pilot in the front, you can do that, and it is frequently encouraged/required at flight schools that you observe other pilots from the passenger perspective especially on X-C's.  Having said that, I still don't think that doing stalls with a backseat passenger and an aft-CG is very smart.
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Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
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Pace
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2007, 02:26:23 PM »

That being said, I don't think I've ever done a stall in an airplane with a back-seat passenger.  Can't remember it if I did.
I have.  It's not that big of a difference from a normal stall's characteristics.  And in a Cessna 172, you're not going to be in utility category with a backseat passenger.  Just make sure you're forward of the aft CG limit and not exceeding MTOW.

Doesn't violate FARs or CAPRs (except during O-flights).
Quote from: BillB
It does violate FAR's if you are both student pilots, which it appears from your post you may be. Student pilots can't carry passengers.
I made the assumption that this was being done in a flight training environment with a CFI in the cockpit.  If you're practicing stalls and you're not doing it for training (with a CFI) or for proficiency (with a CFI or already a certificated pilot yourself), AND you have passengers in the back, your future as a pilot should seriously be put into question.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
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Jolt
Forum Regular

Posts: 159

« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 07:16:59 PM »

I'm sorry, I thought I'd made it clear before.  Neither of us are solo qualified in powered airplanes anyway so everything we do in the plane is with a CFI.  I know you can fly with a CFI in the front right and a passenger in the back during flight training because when I took a flight with a non-CAP instructor one time, I flew with my mom in the back seat so that she could get a chance to fly in a single engine airplane for once.  I was just wondering if anyone had ever seen a regulation or anything regarding doing stall awareness training in a CAP aircraft with someone riding along in the back seat.  I called up one of my friends who went to NFA-P in 2004 and he said they didn't have a problem doing it, but I thought I would ask here to get a more definitive answer.
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Pace
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2007, 09:55:45 PM »

I'm sorry, I thought I'd made it clear before.  Neither of us are solo qualified in powered airplanes anyway so everything we do in the plane is with a CFI.  I know you can fly with a CFI in the front right and a passenger in the back during flight training because when I took a flight with a non-CAP instructor one time, I flew with my mom in the back seat so that she could get a chance to fly in a single engine airplane for once.  I was just wondering if anyone had ever seen a regulation or anything regarding doing stall awareness training in a CAP aircraft with someone riding along in the back seat.  I called up one of my friends who went to NFA-P in 2004 and he said they didn't have a problem doing it, but I thought I would ask here to get a more definitive answer.
In a CAP plane...  check.  With a CAP Instructor Pilot...  check.  Not an O-flight...  check.

Allowed by: FARs and CAPR 60-1 (rather, not disallowed)

When you starting solo'ing (once you start flying without an instructor, not necessarily when you pass the solo benchmark), you can't have anyone in the airplane with you (except for a CFI) until you get your private pilot certificate.
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Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
Jolt
Forum Regular

Posts: 159

« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2007, 10:14:47 PM »

When you starting solo'ing (once you start flying without an instructor, not necessarily when you pass the solo benchmark), you can't have anyone in the airplane with you (except for a CFI) until you get your private pilot certificate.

Couldn't you have a passenger if you were flying a dual flight between the time of your first solo and PPL?
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JohnKachenmeister
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Posts: 3,352

« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2007, 10:38:54 PM »

Yes, Jolt.  He was generalizing his answer to include all solo flights. 

When your CFI is aboard, he's the PIC.  If you are PIC due to the fact that you are solo, and you are still on a student ticket, no PAX.

Take your checkride, get your "Temporary Airman Certificate," and then take Mom up for a ride by yourself.
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Another former CAP officer
Jolt
Forum Regular

Posts: 159

« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2007, 10:47:08 PM »

I hate when people yell at me over the computer and they don't read my posts.

I don't care about flying with my mom.  I was just showing that I knew you could fly with a passenger when the CFI is the PIC.

I got my answer.  Jeez, people... you're talking to me like I want to go out and bend the rules.  I don't want passengers, it's not a big deal to me.  It's just that the last time I went flying, my friend had to hang around the airport because he didn't have a ride home while I was flying with his dad.  I just wanted to see if there were any CAP specific regs keeping him from flying with me from time to time.
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SJFedor
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,691

« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2007, 08:58:25 PM »

That was certainly never my intention, hope you didn't think so.

I've come to notice that some people on the boards only read the last 1 or two messages, and chime in from there, instead of reviewing all the posts made thus far. One person says one thing as a statement and reinforcement of fact, and others think that the person they're adressing was intending to do something against the fact.

Bring a fellow cadet along with during your flight training, it's invaluable for the other cadet, especially when they're doing flight training as well. I started in the back seat watching other cadets doing flight training, you pick up an awful lot that helps and saves time (money) in the front seat.

Make sure you let us know when you solo!
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Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)
Jolt
Forum Regular

Posts: 159

« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2007, 09:21:21 PM »

That was certainly never my intention, hope you didn't think so.

I've come to notice that some people on the boards only read the last 1 or two messages, and chime in from there, instead of reviewing all the posts made thus far. One person says one thing as a statement and reinforcement of fact, and others think that the person they're adressing was intending to do something against the fact.

Bring a fellow cadet along with during your flight training, it's invaluable for the other cadet, especially when they're doing flight training as well. I started in the back seat watching other cadets doing flight training, you pick up an awful lot that helps and saves time (money) in the front seat.

Make sure you let us know when you solo!

Thank you, sir, you've always been polite and kept up with what people were saying.  I appreciate everyone's input.
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AlaskanCFI
Member

Posts: 74

Dragonfly Aero
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2007, 09:40:25 PM »

No problem.   I often conduct form 5 / 91 checkrides with an observer in the rear seat (including our Alaskan survival gear) since we do them on the way back from training missions.   
You just have to explain things even further for non-pilot observers.  And be nice about how you treat them.

As long as the plane is within the legal w&b, (which it will be before you ever leave the ground)  it is better to see how they really act during stall recovery or avoidance with realistic weight. 

The double student method is a good time and money saver during preliminary flight training.  As long as the students are switched in positions often enough to keep it interesting.   
You also have to watch out for some folks who tend to get rear seat motion sickness.

Stall recovery and avoidance should not feel like an acrobatic maneuver when done correctly.

If you ever get up this way, give me a call and I'll show you a taste of Float Flying...


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Major, Squadron Commander Stan-Eval..Instructor Pilot- Alaska Wing CAP
Retired Alaska Air Guard
Retired State of Alaska Law Dawg, Retired Vol Firefighter and EMT
Ex-Navy, Ex-Army,
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Alaskan Tailwheel and Floatplane CFI
http://www.floatplanealaska.com
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Aviation & Flying Activities  |  Topic: Stalls With Passengers
 


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