Where's the Form 37?

[Smithsonia]

I am collecting gear for a training seminar and need to offer members form 37s before I take possession of equipment assigned to them. I just went to download some form 37s - http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/forms.cfm the site no longer has Form 37s?

Has this form been eliminated?
Undergoing review?
No longer needed?
Out of date?
Actually on the site but I can't see it because I have lost it mentally?

[arajca]

Eservices|ORMS|bottom left menu

[Smithsonia]

Thanks Andy; Got it. However the forms and pamphlets site should either have it or directions where to get it.

These forms should NOT be kept in a secret and/or undisclosed location. Not a complaint on my part - Just an observation.
I must say this - in precisely this manner - or I wind up with the job to change it.

[Eclipse]

Form 37's are no longer necessary - temporary and permanent issue of equipment is now done in ORMS.

[EMT-83]

Except if you don't have Internet access, you revert to paper.

[Eclipse]

Except if you don't have Internet access, you revert to paper.

Yes, exactly.  Just an FYI - Pharoah will no longer provide straw.

[EMT-83]

Believe it or not, the interweb isn't always there when you need it. After spending the previous week setting up power failure jacks to bypass PBXs, experiencing generator failures, T1 failures, cell site failures and the like, I can safely say that having an analog back-up plan isn't a bad idea.

[Smithsonia]

As I collect the come back in a few days and bring back the gear - Having hard copy is exactly what I need.

Situation - As I travel from member, to meet-up location, to house, to squadron office, to headquarters and back again... I can not count on internet access. We need to have the 37s signed off in real time under all conditions and can't trust every one who states "I'll update the
ORM online - I promise." That is going eventually going to come-a-cropper.

Solution - I prefer to deliver and sign as I go no matter if I am in the field or office. I want a hard copy with first generation signature.

[arajca]

Additionally, the CAPF 37 is recommended if the equipment will issued for a short period, say a weekend plus a day on either side, to reduce the electronic hassle. This provides for proper accountability and usage of equipment.

[Eclipse]

((*sigh*))

Electronic "hassle"?

Click.  Issued.

Click.  Accepted.

On your smartphone or iPhone when no PC is available.

[Extremepredjudice]

((*sigh*))

Electronic "hassle"?

Click.  Issued.

Click.  Accepted.

On your smartphone or iPhone when no PC is available.

Orlly?

What if there is no reception? God forbid.
What if the tower is down?
What if you forgot your phone?
Oh, wait no power= no phone charged! Another god forbid.
I am a 21st century digital boy, but even I know the internet isn't reliable. Just like the cloud, it fails.

[Eclipse]

What if the terrorists use my phone as a weapon?

What if they are out of Venti cups at SB's? 

What if my bounce house gets blown over by the wind while I'm drying it out?

[Walkman]

Not everyone has a smartphone or a cell web access either. I don't. I'm unemployed and don't have the extra cash for that kind of plan right now.

[Eclipse]

Not everyone has a smartphone or a cell web access either. I don't. I'm unemployed and don't have the extra cash for that kind of plan right now.

Neither is required for the operation, however in that mode, it is not important that you have it, only that someone has it.

Otherwise any PC will do, which is likely how most would get to ORMS.

[Walkman]

Not everyone has a smartphone or a cell web access either. I don't. I'm unemployed and don't have the extra cash for that kind of plan right now.

Neither is required for the operation, however in that mode, it is not important that you have it, only that someone has it.

Otherwise any PC will do, which is likely how most would get to ORMS.

I was just supporting the logic that sometimes paper forms are a good idea. We have no internet connection at our squadron building either.

[davidsinn]

Otherwise any PC will do, which is likely how most would get to ORMS.

The problem is one of the two people involved needs to have access to ORMS. I know that I would not hand off an EF Johnson that is assigned to me unless the other person "signed" for it. I can't afford to replace it and since I can't prove I didn't break it I'd be screwed.

[DakRadz]

Sometimes Eclipse shows how techno-spoiled he is...

And think of those who just went through hurricanes. I believe Thrash said- oh wait, found the quote:

The power is back on! Five days without power due to Irene. 

So in an emergency with no power, the cell towers overloaded, and all the other things going on- you think CAP needs to rely on internet access for everything?

We're talking real-life situations here, that happened a week ago, and will happen again. This is not a "what if" scenario.

[Eclipse]

Otherwise any PC will do, which is likely how most would get to ORMS.

The problem is one of the two people involved needs to have access to ORMS. I know that I would not hand off an EF Johnson that is assigned to me unless the other person "signed" for it. I can't afford to replace it and since I can't prove I didn't break it I'd be screwed.

Doesn't everyone with a membership ID has access to ORMS? Or is certainly supposed to, especially anyone who would be issued equipment, either temporarily or permanently?

[SARDOC]

I was without power for sometime...never lost internet though....thanks to my handy dandy generator and handy dandy AirCard for my lap top...ooohhhh   neighbors were jealous...I just called it preparedness.

[Eclipse]

Sometimes Eclipse shows how techno-spoiled he is...

And think of those who just went through hurricanes. I believe Thrash said- oh wait, found the quote:

The power is back on! Five days without power due to Irene. 

So in an emergency with no power, the cell towers overloaded, and all the other things going on- you think CAP needs to rely on internet access for everything?

We're talking real-life situations here, that happened a week ago, and will happen again. This is not a "what if" scenario.

Except that we're not talking about an emergency situation here.  You know guys, people complain all the time about the mountains of paperwork
our operations require, and then when NHQ provides the means to eliminate it, a lot of members go out of their way to not use it in case of the Armageddon scenario.

News flash.  The power may have been off at Thrash's home, but I bet it wasn't at the EOC (you know where CAP would be operating in an emergency?).

Let me quote the USAF at the eval last week.  "Why are you guys still doing everything on paper?  No one does that anymore, certainly not the USAF."

In the uber-rare case that it is necessary, by all means, carve your tablets, otherwise, check the calendar and get with the program.

I was without power for sometime...never lost internet though....thanks to my handy dandy generator and handy dandy AirCard for my lap top...ooohhhh   neighbors were jealous...I just called it preparedness.

Another guy who is "techno spoiled". 

If you want to make the argument that it is a financial burden not easily carried for individuals to have wireless internet and backup power, so be it.
Curse your darkness while I light my candle - life is choice.  As a professionalized emergency response organization, those capabilities are no longer "optional", no matter what angle you want to attack.  Not only do we have a number of tools, including WMIRS and eServices required to make
the administrative side of response "easier", but in order not to look like a bunch of disconnected, unfunded amateurs, we need to insure we
have the same baseline capabilities that the agencies we are supporting have.

Not to mention that no disaster worth it's DR-V is without at least one, if not several turn-key FEMA Sat trucks to provide connectivity to the EOC, and
responding agencies, because even if we want to keep playing in the stone age, the Feds can't, and won't.

[arajca]

Otherwise any PC will do, which is likely how most would get to ORMS.

The problem is one of the two people involved needs to have access to ORMS. I know that I would not hand off an EF Johnson that is assigned to me unless the other person "signed" for it. I can't afford to replace it and since I can't prove I didn't break it I'd be screwed.

Doesn't everyone with a membership ID has access to ORMS? Or is certainly supposed to, especially anyone who would be issued equipment, either temporarily or permanently?

Yes, but if you are issued equipment all you can do in ORMS is turn it in. You cannot transfer it to someone else. So you need a third person who is a designated property manager like a communications officer to accept the return and reissue it out. And that person has to be from the your unit or a superior unit to issue the equipment. Additionally, the property manager may want to inspect the unit prior to reissuing it so you have more time involved.

The CAPF 37 is for temporary and short term issues. The regs require doing the issue in ORMS if the equipment will out/transferred for more than 7 days. A member signing out an ISR for a FTX weekend - CAPF 37 is fine. Same member being issued that radio for their GT kit - issue the radio in ORMS. The member has 7 days to accept the issue of return the radio. CAP is aware that not every unit has internet access at their meeting or storage locations. The CAPF 37 provides documentation of where equipment is between the time the member takes physical custody of it and the time it is issued in ORMS.

[SARDOC]

Another guy who is "techno spoiled". 

Techno Spoiled maybe...  But it is good "Continuity Of Operations Planning"  Having worked Emergency Services for many years I just tend to believe in being prepared.

[DakRadz]

Eclipse:
Someone has to play devil's advocate. Now you've substantiated that position with a rather steadfast argument.

I just wanted to point out that having a PDF form that can be downloaded, saved, and printed as needed is not a bad back-up plan. We have so many redundancies in our program already, what will it hurt to have some that are actually very useful or have potential to be so?

[SARDOC]

If you do not have access to ORMS I don't see an issue with doing a hand receipt on a CAPF 37...heck...put it on the back of a napkin if that is all you have.  Just remember it needs to be entered in ORMS.

[SarDragon]

If you do not have access to ORMS I don't see an issue with doing a hand receipt on a CAPF 37...heck...put it on the back of a napkin if that is all you have.  Just remember it needs to be entered in ORMS.

Hence the OP's concern. The CAPF 37 is no longer readily available. I may have one available on my other computer. Gimme overnight to find it.

[Eclipse]

Hot off the ORMS.  Courtesy of the techno elite.

[SarDragon]

Kool. I didn't dig deep enough when I was in ORMS earlier. Thought they were there, but if not, I had them available locally.

[Extremepredjudice]

Eclipse, I am seriously concerned.

If you are a "techie", and you think the internet will always be up?
For SHAME!  It won't, you should know this!

We've seen it time and again. In fact, I may have seen something about the japanese having the same problem. They used digital stuff, but they had to internet, so they swotched back to paper.

Oh and, satellite internet goes out more often than cable.


If having paper copies makes us look old and disconnected, then we are.

[jimmydeanno]

The amount of time that the internet would be down in an operational area is minimal, as to only cause a slight blip in operations.  The worst that happens is that someone whips out their scratch pad and writes who they gave the radios to, even if they don't have a CAPF 37.  Not a big deal.

[Eclipse]

We've seen it time and again.

Seen what where?

Oh and, satellite internet goes out more often than cable.

Really? And you would know this from your extensive use and experience with it, where?

Don't confuse FEMA remote infrastructure systems with flaky rural internet access services.   

Further, those systems are not always satellite based, but can also be sight-to-sight microwave links that just point back to where things are working.  Which, BTW, is where the ICP is supposed to be located by ICS doctrine - in an area of safety and robust infrastructure, not next to the sink hole, on the eastern eyewall.

You mentioned before that cloud services fail.  Using a distributed cloud actually reduces your risk of failure vs. a locally hosted solution.  A server, or file cabinet full of paper, located at Maxwell, which is destroyed by a disaster of some sort, is simply gone, with no return until someone starts replacing equipment and restoring the backups (assuming those weren't in the desk next to the server).  Cloud services, by design, don't exist "anywhere", and therefore a single site being destroyed has minimal impact on availability.  There might be a delay while things resync themselves, or fail-overs kick in, but at least the wing ITO isn't running to Fry's to buy a new machine and re-install Frontpage in the middle of trying to launch sorties.

The amount of time that the internet would be down in an operational area is minimal, as to only cause a slight blip in operations.  The worst that happens is that someone whips out their scratch pad and writes who they gave the radios to, even if they don't have a CAPF 37.  Not a big deal.

Exactly.

[peter rabbit]

Otherwise any PC will do, which is likely how most would get to ORMS.

The problem is one of the two people involved needs to have access to ORMS. I know that I would not hand off an EF Johnson that is assigned to me unless the other person "signed" for it. I can't afford to replace it and since I can't prove I didn't break it I'd be screwed.

+1. That means while the equipment can be reassigned in ORMS before/as I leave to take it to the other person, I'll have a paper 37 available in case the person can't (or it isn't practical to) 'accept' it in ORMS when I hand it over.