How can we work with Amber?

[isuhawkeye]

Lets talk about Amber.

http://www.amberalert.gov/about/faqs.htm

Just so everyone is on the same page here are a few notes from amberalert.gov

What are the criteria for issuing AMBER Alerts?
Each state AMBER Alert plan has its own criteria for issuing AMBER Alerts. The PROTECT Act, passed in 2003, which established the role of AMBER Alert Coordinator within the Department of Justice, calls for the Department of Justice to issue minimum standards or guidelines for AMBER Alerts that states can adopt voluntarily. The Department's Guidance on Criteria for Issuing AMBER Alerts follows:
     •Law enforcement must confirm that an abduction has taken place
     •The child is at risk of serious injury or death
     •There is sufficient descriptive information of child, captor or captor's vehicle to issue an Alert
     •The child must be 17-years-old or younger
     •It is recommended that immediate entry of AMBER Alert data be entered into the FBI's National Crime Information Center. Text information describing the circumstances surrounding the abduction of the child should be entered, and the case flagged as Child Abduction.

Are AMBER Alerts issued for all missing children?
AMBER Alerts are issued for abducted children when the situation meets the AMBER Alert criteria. Some children wander away in a crowded grocery store, others might run off after a heated argument. When a child is missing, law enforcement can act swiftly to help recover the child, by developing search and rescue teams or by bringing dogs to the scene to track the scent for example. AMBER Alert is only one tool that law enforcement can use to find abducted children. AMBER Alerts should be reserved for those cases that meet the AMBER criteria. Overuse of AMBER Alert could result in the public becoming desensitized to Alerts when they are issued.

                     Now......

                                  Let's talk about Amber alerts.

There has been a lot of talk about emergency response. 
Title 10
Title 36
PCA
Law enforcement
Air force
Civilian SAR 

With all of this in mind what role does, or should CAP fill in response to amber alerts.

     1. Is it appropriate to include the general public (through broadcast) in the criminal investigation for an abducted suspect.
     2. Is it appropriate for CAP to fly Reconnaissance for a suspect vehicle
     3. Is it appropriate for CAP search planners, or managers to assist paw enforcement with POD plotting,
     4. Is it appropriate for CAP to provide aerial imagery (Archer, or still imagery).

Well that's the start. 

Enjoy

[RiverAux]

Since this program is geared towards kidnappings rather than standard "lost person" searches I don't see any role for CAP either in the field or headquarters. 

[lordmonar]

As with anything...we can support our customers as the law requires and their need.

For a specific Amber Alert....currently our regulations would not let us to go search for a specific or even a type of vehicle.

The same goes for going house to house.

An aerial search looking for a criminal would again violate the current regs and laws.

This sort of activity crosses the line as far as the current definition of Posse Commutates is concerned.

[JohnKachenmeister]

There is a general consensus that we are not bound by Posse Commitatus when acting in our Title 36 role, since the 2000 law change.

We are still bound by our regs, which have not been changed, but may eventually be, to reflect this change of status.

So, here's my challenge to you:

YOU go to the parents of a kidnapped 9-year old girl, and explain to them why, yes, CAP can fly a DEA agent all over looking for a marijuana patch, but no, we can't fly around looking for your daughter, since she may actually still be with the pervert who kidnapped her.

That being said, I don't think there's much we can do anyway from 1000 feet AGL.  Most of the time we can't even find the Big White Vans of our ground teams.

[isuhawkeye]

lets look at the reg in question.  900.3 is the one that seems to fit.  what part prohibits, or authorises our partisipation?

[lordmonar]

lets look at the reg in question.  900.3 is the one that seems to fit.  what part prohibits, or authorizes our participation?

Yes lets look at 900-3

CAP assistance to law enforcement agencies which may lead to criminal prosecution is restricted to patrol, surveillance, and reporting only. Requests for such assistance, unless of an emergency nature, must be approved in advance by the Wing and Region Com-manders and coordinated with National Head-quarters/DO. All CAP flights will be in accordance with CAPR 60-1.

So lets jump to 60-1

2-4. Prohibited Uses of CAP Aircraft. The following uses of CAP aircraft are prohibited:
a. Personal use.
b. Acrobatic flight.
c. Parachuting activities.
d. Any use requiring a FAA special flight permit (except ferry permits).
e. Flying in air shows unless authorized in writing by the Executive Director.
f. Formation flying unless authorized in writing by the region commander or the Executive Director (except low-level route surveys flown with a minimum of one-half mile spacing and wing commander approval).
g. Dropping of objects unless such action is to prevent loss of life.
h. Assistance to law enforcement officers, except as provided for in Counterdrug operations directives.
...Emphasis mine

So unless it is part of counterdrug....we can't do it...until this part of 60-1 is changed.  There is also a USAF AFI or AFPD that prevents any aircraft with USAF-AUX from flying LE missions no matter who is paying for it.

As I was pointing out in my original post....whether I think it is right or not...within the frame work of our regulations and by laws we cannot help out during an amber alert.

[isuhawkeye]

good point. 

The regulations you quote only restrict flight activities.  what about ground patrol or surveillance.

How are we justifying all of the law enforcement flights that are taking place lately.  I'm referencing the Olympics, and other such high profile events?




OK.  lets talk application.  your crews are working a mission for a missing person.  At what point do you make the decision to pull resources.  When do you KNOW it is an abduction.  Whats the matrix because this will be a high profile decision with long term consequences

[RiverAux]

There is also a USAF AFI or AFPD that prevents any aircraft with USAF-AUX from flying LE missions no matter who is paying for it.

That regulation only applies to AFAMs.  It applies to what missions the AF says are AFAMs.  And it doesn't prohibit it, just restricts who has the ability to approve them.   AF regulations do not apply directly to CAP, they just regulate how the AF deals with us. 

If CAP wanted to do LE as a corporate mission (and made the appropriate changes to our own regulations) we could.  However, I'm not saying that the AF couldn't "retaliate" for us doing this in many ways. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

There is also a USAF AFI or AFPD that prevents any aircraft with USAF-AUX from flying LE missions no matter who is paying for it.

That regulation only applies to AFAMs.  It applies to what missions the AF says are AFAMs.  And it doesn't prohibit it, just restricts who has the ability to approve them.   AF regulations do not apply directly to CAP, they just regulate how the AF deals with us. 

If CAP wanted to do LE as a corporate mission (and made the appropriate changes to our own regulations) we could.  However, I'm not saying that the AF couldn't "retaliate" for us doing this in many ways. 

I think River is right.  The only thing preventing us from doing Amber Alerts (On the state's dime as a Title 36 mission) is our own regulations.  I do not think the regs reflect the reality of our status change in the 2000 law.

I still question the effectiveness of fixed-wing assets on a search of that nature, but, if the reg were changed, we should still try our best.  Trying, even though the effort fails would be a far better public posture than "It won't work, so we won't even make the effort."

[RiverAux]

Kach and  I are on the same page here.  Fixed wings have very limited usefulness in any lost person search and probably even less for kidnapping situations.  In general we're just not the best asset for the job even if our regs allowed it. 

[Hawk200]

2-4. Prohibited Uses of CAP Aircraft. The following uses of CAP aircraft are prohibited:
a. Personal use.
b. Acrobatic flight.
c. Parachuting activities.
d. Any use requiring a FAA special flight permit (except ferry permits).
e. Flying in air shows unless authorized in writing by the Executive Director.
f. Formation flying unless authorized in writing by the region commander or the Executive Director (except low-level route surveys flown with a minimum of one-half mile spacing and wing commander approval).
g. Dropping of objects unless such action is to prevent loss of life.
h. Assistance to law enforcement officers, except as provided for in Counterdrug operations directives.
...Emphasis mine

So unless it is part of counterdrug....we can't do it...until this part of 60-1 is changed.  There is also a USAF AFI or AFPD that prevents any aircraft with USAF-AUX from flying LE missions no matter who is paying for it.

As I was pointing out in my original post....whether I think it is right or not...within the frame work of our regulations and by laws we cannot help out during an amber alert.

I'm kinda wondering why assisting in an Amber alert would be considered "assisting law enforcement". After all, an Amber alert is not issued to the law enforcement community, it's issued to the public at large. It's requesting civilians to be on the look out. Which the way I see it, could easily be viewed as "reconnaissance."

[lordmonar]

I'm kinda wondering why assisting in an Amber alert would be considered "assisting law enforcement". After all, an Amber alert is not issued to the law enforcement community, it's issued to the public at large. It's requesting civilians to be on the look out. Which the way I see it, could easily be viewed as "reconnaissance."

So you are flying around see the suspect car...who are you going to call?  The "pubic at large"...no you call the cops.

Let's not be weasily about this.

Don't get me wrong...I want CAP to be able to do more LE support upto and including direct support on raids and car chases......but our regulations, the USAF and maybe the law do not allow us to do that right now.

[JohnKachenmeister]

2-4. Prohibited Uses of CAP Aircraft. The following uses of CAP aircraft are prohibited:
a. Personal use.
b. Acrobatic flight.
c. Parachuting activities.
d. Any use requiring a FAA special flight permit (except ferry permits).
e. Flying in air shows unless authorized in writing by the Executive Director.
f. Formation flying unless authorized in writing by the region commander or the Executive Director (except low-level route surveys flown with a minimum of one-half mile spacing and wing commander approval).
g. Dropping of objects unless such action is to prevent loss of life.
h. Assistance to law enforcement officers, except as provided for in Counterdrug operations directives.
...Emphasis mine

So unless it is part of counterdrug....we can't do it...until this part of 60-1 is changed.  There is also a USAF AFI or AFPD that prevents any aircraft with USAF-AUX from flying LE missions no matter who is paying for it.

As I was pointing out in my original post....whether I think it is right or not...within the frame work of our regulations and by laws we cannot help out during an amber alert.

I'm kinda wondering why assisting in an Amber alert would be considered "assisting law enforcement". After all, an Amber alert is not issued to the law enforcement community, it's issued to the public at large. It's requesting civilians to be on the look out. Which the way I see it, could easily be viewed as "reconnaissance."

Right, Hawk.

And border patrol is a "Rescue" mission, looking for dehydrated Mexicans!

[lordmonar]

HLS is not law enforcement....it's national defense.

[DNall]

     1. Is it appropriate to include the general public (through broadcast) in the criminal investigation for an abducted suspect.
     2. Is it appropriate for CAP to fly Reconnaissance for a suspect vehicle
     3. Is it appropriate for CAP search planners, or managers to assist paw enforcement with POD plotting,
     4. Is it appropriate for CAP to provide aerial imagery (Archer, or still imagery).

Yes. No, No, No. And, I'll tell you why.

The reason the public is involved is as a neighborhood watch-style element to spot a moving vehicle usually. You'll recall the effect of this in the DC sniper case. However, the public is not to be involved in aprehension. I've seen CAP involved (have participated actually) in searches we should not have been, and that's generally a mistake. We are not generic searchers to go find anything that's lost. We find a particular category of things so as to save money & manpower for the AF redirected to combat power, yada yada. We share that capability at times w/ state local govts that are too poor to afford our kind of resources, but do so always under very strict rules.

I don't personally think it's ever appropriate for CAP to be involved in anything that violates PCA, and that has less to do w/ PCA or even the AF relationship than it does being for our own protection, literally & figuratively. I don't thin iots appropriate to put CAP members in the position of making/breaking cases, testifying excessivly in court, or getting made by a kidnapper on the run w/ a kid & a hostage.

HLS is not law enforcement....it's national defense.

HLS is LE, HLD is military. Lot of overlap obviously, but very ley difs we need to be aware & sensitive of.

[Hawk200]

So you are flying around see the suspect car...who are you going to call?  The "pubic at large"...no you call the cops.

Let's not be weasily about this.

Don't get me wrong...I want CAP to be able to do more LE support upto and including direct support on raids and car chases......but our regulations, the USAF and maybe the law do not allow us to do that right now.

Hmm, let's see: calling the cops is the same as supporting law enforcement...OK, got it.....

[JohnKachenmeister]

So you are flying around see the suspect car...who are you going to call?  The "pubic at large"...no you call the cops.

Let's not be weasily about this.

Don't get me wrong...I want CAP to be able to do more LE support upto and including direct support on raids and car chases......but our regulations, the USAF and maybe the law do not allow us to do that right now.

Hmm, let's see: calling the cops is the same as supporting law enforcement...OK, got it.....

Not quite.  You cannot fly an assistance to law enforcement mission. If you are flying another mission and just happen to see the car that is the target of the amber alert, you can call the cops.

Assuming that from 1000 feet agl you can correctly identify WHICH beige Ford Taurus you are looking at, and know that it is the exact beige Ford Taurus that kidnapped the kid.

Not saying something odd couldn't happen.  Like the day you scheduled a proficiency flight, some kid was kidnapped by a guy driving a day-glo orange double decker bus.

It could happen, right?

[Guardrail]

Not saying something odd couldn't happen.  Like the day you scheduled a proficiency flight, some kid was kidnapped by a guy driving a day-glo orange double decker bus.

It could happen, right?

Maybe in San Francisco!  <a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxdm824YYUS%2526i%253D29%252F29%255F1%255F9%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">

[Hawk200]

Not quite.  You cannot fly an assistance to law enforcement mission. If you are flying another mission and just happen to see the car that is the target of the amber alert, you can call the cops.

Assuming that from 1000 feet agl you can correctly identify WHICH beige Ford Taurus you are looking at, and know that it is the exact beige Ford Taurus that kidnapped the kid.

Not saying something odd couldn't happen.  Like the day you scheduled a proficiency flight, some kid was kidnapped by a guy driving a day-glo orange double decker bus.

It could happen, right?

I think you missed the sarcasm, John. I think supporting amber would be done the same way the public at large does it. You see the targeted vehicle, you call it in, and that's it. You don't chase or follow it, just tell the cops, and be done.

I think far more was made of what I was thinking than what was actually true. It's best to keep things simple.

[Kojack]

Let me preface this by saying I'm retired Law Enforcement....  I'm an IC and Mission Pilot.

That being said, look at the task you are wanting to help with.  This is not a vehicle that failed to reach a destination and CAP aircraft can fly a route search and maybe spot where it left the road.

You are looking to search for a moving vehicle in a hugh unknown area.  What is your fastest launch time?  About an hour and a half on a GOOD day.  How far can a car go in 1.5 hours at 65 MPH?  Almost a hundred miles.

So do we assume that they are within that hundred miles just hanging around?  If so  draw that hundred mile radius on your map and see how much territory you are talking about.

Or did they hit the outside of that line and in what direction?  How many planes do we launch to cover an area we don't know for a single vehicle that looks an awful lot like several thousand other of the same type of vehicle traveling on those roads?

It's a nice thought, but I think you can see that it is pretty impractical.  My suggestion would be to push harder for the first instance, that of looking for a missing vehicle.  I know of several cases where cars have run off the road and were not found for days.  This type of route search is right up our alley and we are already trained for it.

[SAR-EMT1]

I will support this provided that as part of our CAP firearms training, Mission Obervers are trained in the use of the Barrett .50 rifle.  This would be so that we could shoot out the engines just like the CG does to drug running speedboats.
:clap:

[smj58501]

I will support this provided that as part of our CAP firearms training, Mission Obervers are trained in the use of the Barrett .50 rifle.  This would be so that we could shoot out the engines just like the CG does to drug running speedboats.
:clap:

As volunteers, we don't have much time for marksmanship training. It would be better if we just used the full auto M2 .50 cal machine gun. That way all the observer or scanner would need to do is spray the target, which takes less instruction than actual sniper-type training. Collateral damage aside, this method would probably be successful at stopping the subject.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Besides, I think you can get a Ma Deuce cheaper than a Barrett.

But:  Weight of typical CAP aircrewman:  200 pounds

Times 3 crewmen:                                    600 Pounds.

Plus 110 pound M-2 (empty)                   710 pounds.

Plus 1 box 50 caliber ammo, 35 pounds  745 pounds.

We are already over the maximum full-fuel gross payload of a Skyhawk.  Either get skinnier pilots or switch to the 46 pound M-60.  Or both.

[SAR-EMT1]

We couldn't use the MA Deuce ( much as I love it) OR the 60 OR the SAW:
An Amber Alert mission would require keeping the kid alive!
SECOND: Wouldn't the firing of the M2 have a negative impact on the actual flight characteristics of the Cessna? AE- shake control cables loose, roll the plane etc...

I GOT IT: the "media" is actually reporting the Air Force at Moody successfully tested a "RAY GUN" they actually called it a 'ray gun'! - Why it wasn't the ARMY testing this I have no clue. But anyway CAP Cessna's would be the PERFECT Test platform for this NEW RAY GUN!!! 

We should now commence an authoritative discussion on how to incorporate Starfleet insignia onto the CAP flight suit.  :angel:

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm not sure what damage or flight characteristic changes would occur with firing a M2 in flight in a C-172.  Probably damage to whatever aluminum thing its mounted to would be the first result.

Which reminds me... I didn't add in the weight of the mounting hardware.

"Keep the kid alive" indeed!  You know, I've had it up to HERE with all of these silly rules!

[SAR-EMT1]

How much would this ray gun weigh in at?
And how much would mounting hardware be for it or the Ma Deuce?