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JC004
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« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2011, 11:37:47 AM »

That's the point of focusing on working groups and task forces.  Then you have your committees that cover a whole subject matter like Professional Development.  The work gets submitted to them, they look at it, send it to the full NB for approval. 

The "Solutions" document focuses a lot on that and while it's not included I think that on this topic specifically, if elected, Col Weiss was planning on standing up a Uniform Board like the AF has - which, I think (but am not 100% sure) is a working group as opposed to a National Board committee.  I think he'll be back, though, since he started the topic.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2011, 03:46:17 PM »

Since college gave me a nice boost...in weight, I've been following the CAP weight chart, and wear the Grey/Whites and BBDUs.

To be honest, BOTH look great, but the Grey/Whites do not live up to the Blues for two reasons: lack of a proper cover and lack of proper Service dress option.

Add those two things, and at least it won't feel like a completely secondary outfit.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 03:54:41 PM »

Some interesting NON-Uniform items:

AGENDA ITEM 8
Quote
In February 2011, a CAPF 27 was submitted to change the name of Puerto Rico Wing to Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands Wing.

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jeders
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 04:02:36 PM »

Some interesting NON-Uniform items:

AGENDA ITEM 8
Quote
In February 2011, a CAPF 27 was submitted to change the name of Puerto Rico Wing to Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands Wing.

I think it's probably a good change, but I wish they'd choose a shorter name. Maybe something like Caribbean Wing.
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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2011, 04:47:12 PM »

That's the point of focusing on working groups and task forces.  Then you have your committees that cover a whole subject matter like Professional Development.  The work gets submitted to them, they look at it, send it to the full NB for approval. 

The "Solutions" document focuses a lot on that and while it's not included I think that on this topic specifically, if elected, Col Weiss was planning on standing up a Uniform Board like the AF has - which, I think (but am not 100% sure) is a working group as opposed to a National Board committee.  I think he'll be back, though, since he started the topic.

A uniform board, IMO, will not be a committee.  It would be a working group, commissioned by the National Board to make comprehensive reccommendations for our uniforms; styles, wear direction and, appropriate uses to the NB.  I would propose it be comprised of NB members, CAP-USAF representitives and, interested members who have real experience in our history and uniform wear(most likely 1 representitive from each region). I would  hope, if constituted, it will address all uniform issues and concerns addressed here and, thru official channels.  The recomendations will be based on member and Air Force input/approval. When the work of the board is done; it should be disbanded.  I see no other way out of this uniform debate...
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2011, 05:00:38 PM »

That's the point of focusing on working groups and task forces.  Then you have your committees that cover a whole subject matter like Professional Development.  The work gets submitted to them, they look at it, send it to the full NB for approval. 

The "Solutions" document focuses a lot on that and while it's not included I think that on this topic specifically, if elected, Col Weiss was planning on standing up a Uniform Board like the AF has - which, I think (but am not 100% sure) is a working group as opposed to a National Board committee.  I think he'll be back, though, since he started the topic.

A uniform board, IMO, will not be a committee.  It would be a working group, commissioned by the National Board to make comprehensive reccommendations for our uniforms; styles, wear direction and, appropriate uses to the NB.  I would propose it be comprised of NB members, CAP-USAF representitives and, interested members who have real experience in our history and uniform wear(most likely 1 representitive from each region). I would  hope, if constituted, it will address all uniform issues and concerns addressed here and, thru official channels.  The recomendations will be based on member and Air Force input/approval. When the work of the board is done; it should be disbanded.  I see no other way out of this uniform debate...

Hm, only one member at large from each region? Well, how do we sign up?  ;D
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2011, 05:05:44 PM »


Hm, only one member at large from each region? Well, how do we sign up?  ;D

Well, it's a good plan- we want more communication and effectiveness than Congress, right?
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2011, 05:06:24 PM »

September 2010 National Board Meeting: Agenda Item 22
CAP Chaplain Qualifications

Finally lowering the requirements to be able to add on CAP Chaplains as opposed to AF ready Chaplains. While I don't see much use of the whole program, I think that's a good move. I think the Chaplain Corps is full of it when their opinion is "This is one of the uniquely distinctive ways that Civil Air Patrol is known to be an exceptional organization." I don't think many within CAP, or those impacted by our three missions, or the general public think that the Chaplain requirements is what makes this an exceptional organization. Then again, I think the CC has too much influence as is.
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JeffDG
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« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2011, 05:08:36 PM »

Some interesting NON-Uniform items:

AGENDA ITEM 8
Quote
In February 2011, a CAPF 27 was submitted to change the name of Puerto Rico Wing to Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands Wing.

I think it's probably a good change, but I wish they'd choose a shorter name. Maybe something like Caribbean Wing.
If you read that one more closely, they've previously approved the change, but then someone realized that it was beyond the authority of the NB to do so.

That's because PRWG's unique status in the Constitution and Bylaws (ie. not being a "state").  This means that the NB now needs to forward a reco to the BoG to amend the C&B to make this happen.  I predict relatively little controversy on this one!
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RiverAux
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« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2011, 05:13:04 PM »

A uniform board, IMO, will not be a committee.  It would be a working group, commissioned by the National Board to make comprehensive reccommendations for our uniforms; styles, wear direction and, appropriate uses to the NB.  I would propose it be comprised of NB members, CAP-USAF representitives and, interested members who have real experience in our history and uniform wear(most likely 1 representitive from each region). I would  hope, if constituted, it will address all uniform issues and concerns addressed here and, thru official channels.  The recomendations will be based on member and Air Force input/approval. When the work of the board is done; it should be disbanded. 
A temporary uniform board will only work if along with that the NB and BoG are prohibited from initiating uniform-related regulations without having run them through a new uniform board.  Otherwise we will just be right back in the same situation in a few years.  Unfortunately, that sort of restriction wouldn't have any real teeth unless it was part of the CAP Constitution, and even that can be changed relatively easily. 
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BillB
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« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2011, 05:32:08 PM »

Col Weiss....Let me disagree on several points. With your makeup of the Uniform Committee, 50% of the votes are "corporate votes". 50% would be from average members (who selects them by the way?) with the CAP-USAF member having the deciding vote. It's been shown that the NEC has more or less made a shambles of uniform regulations over the past ten years. May I suggest that the National CC appoint 8 members joined by a Representative from the NEC, a Representative of the National Board, The representative of CAP-USAFand Susie Parker (who had knowledge of prior uniform items better than most NB,NEC members)
Rather than disband the committee at the end of their labors, retain the committee. Any Uniform changes from the NEC goes to the Uniform Committee then to the National Board. This will give the membership a voice in uniform matters. Further, no uniform changes would come from the NEC until the Committee completed it work. (meaning the NEC bypassing the Committee)
Of course a possible change from BDU to ACU might occur while the Committee in working. And with emails, Skype and conference calls, the committee never has to physically meet to start with.
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Gil Robb Wilson # 19
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« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2011, 05:35:26 PM »

Why the ACU? its ARMY  Do mean ABU? ITS AIR FORCE
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« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2011, 05:41:26 PM »

Also, I wouldn't recommend having CAP-USAF on the uniform board primarily because they appear to not to want to get involved in most corporate uniform issues. 
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« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2011, 05:41:46 PM »

Riv; Let me clarify my position.
The National Board will authorize this group to make the decisions/recommendations with Air Force approvals.  The BoG will not interfere with uniforms unless the SECAF/CSAF orders it.  The NEC will not deal with uniforms unless the NB refers it.  And, the National Commader would ensure all groups work together.   That is the way it is supposed to work.  That is a function of a National Commander. 
 
BillB; the make up of the Board would be made with consultation of the NB.  I would hope for a fair representation of all parties. However, I think the commander would have significant influence in its make up and charter.  The key, IMO, is in getting member input and distilling all the "wants" into concrete recommendations for the NB.

In three years, another commander may initiate another board however, that's another story...
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« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2011, 06:12:19 PM »

Makes sense ........I would recommend all uniform modifications be tested before changing(like the USAF).

For PR Wing, what along name (could use Southern Territorial Wing) STWG
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« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2011, 06:24:36 PM »

Riv; Let me clarify my position.
(. . .)  The BoG will not interfere with uniforms unless the SECAF/CSAF orders it.  The NEC will not deal with uniforms unless the NB refers it.  And, the National Commader would ensure all groups work together.   That is the way it is supposed to work.  That is a function of a National Commander.

I'm not sure how the National Commander can do this.

While the BoG has displayed absolutely no interest in dealing with uniform issues, they do not take "orders" from SECAF, CSAF, or the CAP CC.  Nor does the National Commander get to set the BoG's agenda unless he/she happens to be the current Chair.  The National Commander is just 1 vote out of 11.  The BoG was deliberately set up so that no one stakeholder (CAP, USAF, or outside directors) can control.  Thus, the stakeholders need to work together.

Similarly, absent a change to the CAP constitution, the NB does not have the power to restrict the NEC from considering uniform issues.  (Actually, I think the constitution should forbid  either group from dealing with uniforms, but that's just me.)

The National Commander certainly chairs the NB and NEC and has significant influence over the agendas of each body, but individual wing and region commanders are still entitled to put agenda items forward for consideration by the group.

IOW, it is not a "function" of the National Commander to control the BoG.

Maybe possible governance changes lie in our future.

Ned Lee



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JeffDG
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« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2011, 06:35:02 PM »

Similarly, absent a change to the CAP constitution, the NB does not have the power to restrict the NEC from considering uniform issues.  (Actually, I think the constitution should forbid  either group from dealing with uniforms, but that's just me.)
Really?  My understanding is that the NEC is empowered with, essentially, the same powers as the NB.  It functions as, essentially, a committee of the NB when the NB is not in session.

Generally, a parent body (which is what I would consider the NB in this relationship), can reserve certain authority to their, and only their, consideration.  A subordinate committee would then not have the authority to consider such actions.

<Note, this is from a general understanding of similar organizations, not any detailed reading of CAP's C&B...I post it hoping someone can educate me on why I'm wrong!>
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« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2011, 06:48:50 PM »

Riv; Let me clarify my position.
(. . .)  The BoG will not interfere with uniforms unless the SECAF/CSAF orders it.  The NEC will not deal with uniforms unless the NB refers it.  And, the National Commader would ensure all groups work together.   That is the way it is supposed to work.  That is a function of a National Commander.

I'm not sure how the National Commander can do this.

While the BoG has displayed absolutely no interest in dealing with uniform issues, they do not take "orders" from SECAF, CSAF, or the CAP CC.  Nor does the National Commander get to set the BoG's agenda unless he/she happens to be the current Chair.  The National Commander is just 1 vote out of 11.  The BoG was deliberately set up so that no one stakeholder (CAP, USAF, or outside directors) can control.  Thus, the stakeholders need to work together.

Similarly, absent a change to the CAP constitution, the NB does not have the power to restrict the NEC from considering uniform issues.  (Actually, I think the constitution should forbid  either group from dealing with uniforms, but that's just me.)

The National Commander certainly chairs the NB and NEC and has significant influence over the agendas of each body, but individual wing and region commanders are still entitled to put agenda items forward for consideration by the group.

IOW, it is not a "function" of the National Commander to control the BoG.

Maybe possible governance changes lie in our future.

Ned Lee

Exactly, the BoG has no interest (as far as I know) in uniform issues and, IMHO, would not deal with them unless asked by the SECAF/CSAF (like in 2006). 
 
Until 2009 it was the policy of CAP to keep uniform issues to the Winter NB meeting.  That changed in Nov 2009.  If it becomes policy to implement this Uniform Board by the NB.  It will be the National Commander's duty to enforce this policy until it is changed.  The NEC could bring up an exception however, it would be the Commander's prerogative to refer it to the NB; as it was the body so initiating it.  While postponing isn't guaranteed, the commander's wishes usually prevail in these cases.
 
Oh, did I say the National Commander would control the BoG?  I thought I said ensure everyone works together.  To me there is a difference between the two statements...  but, I'm not an attorney; I only "create smiles" for a living...  ;D
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« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2011, 07:08:43 PM »

September 2010 National Board Meeting: Agenda Item 22
CAP Chaplain Qualifications

Finally lowering the requirements to be able to add on CAP Chaplains as opposed to AF ready Chaplains. While I don't see much use of the whole program, I think that's a good move. I think the Chaplain Corps is full of it when their opinion is "This is one of the uniquely distinctive ways that Civil Air Patrol is known to be an exceptional organization." I don't think many within CAP, or those impacted by our three missions, or the general public think that the Chaplain requirements is what makes this an exceptional organization. Then again, I think the CC has too much influence as is.

I'm very sorry you feel this way.  :(

I earnestly and honestly believe that most CAP Chaplains want to be of service to the organization and it's constituents in the most positive manner possible.  I know that we are not universally well thought of by the membership...and I know that there are those chaplains' who are to big for their britches!!  I hope that Chaplains who are innappropriate and members who have a low opinion of Chaplains are minorities. 
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« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2011, 07:16:53 PM »

Until 2009 it was the policy of CAP to keep uniform issues to the Winter NB meeting.  That changed in Nov 2009.

Sir, I have been suspicious ever since then what motivated the NEC to believe they had to act with such alacrity in November 2009 on an issue that had not been dealt with in such a fashion until then...with no input from the rank-and-file that I know of.

WRT USVI/Puerto Rico...I have often wondered about the status of not just CAP personnel, but military personnel in general, especially National Guard.  PR has an Army and an Air National Guard, and an SDF, yet they are not a State...I believe the USVI has a nonflying ANG unit.  I'm not sure of the Constitutional authority of this; but I remember the phrase "the National Guard of the several States..." ah, well, what do I know.

I know the PRANG flies C-130s and at one time flew F-16's, A-7's and F-104's...probably as a deterrent to Warsaw Pact operations out of Cuba.

I don't know the geography well enough to know how far apart physically the USVI and PR are, but would there be logistical problems "getting there from here" for personnel from both locales?  What is their mission, since the USCG is well established in Puerto Rico (CGAS Borinquen) and I imagine they have SAR in hand...but again my knowledge of that area is very limited.
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