No Cadet Uniform To Be Funded By CAP For First Year Cadets?

[davidsinn]

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Let's cut the political BS major. I'm poor, I'm unemployed going on seven months now. I live in a poor county with an obscene unemployment level, far higher than your own. So no, I'm not a class warrior.

Let's look at a this objectively: The FCU cost around $60. You're still going to need to add things to it to complete it and last I checked that's going to run somewhere north of $50. If the added cost of the uniform itself will break the budget then maybe CAP is not something they should be doing in the first place.

CAP is expensive. So is pretty much everything else in the world. You pick and choose what's important to you. I've given up most of my hobbies because I can't afford them anymore and yet I'm still a member because it's important to me.

[Major Carrales]

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Let's cut the political BS major. I'm poor, I'm unemployed going on seven months now. I live in a poor county with an obscene unemployment level, far higher than your own. So no, I'm not a class warrior.

Let's look at a this objectively: The FCU cost around $60. You're still going to need to add things to it to complete it and last I checked that's going to run somewhere north of $50. If the added cost of the uniform itself will break the budget then maybe CAP is not something they should be doing in the first place.

CAP is expensive. So is pretty much everything else in the world. You pick and choose what's important to you. I've given up most of my hobbies because I can't afford them anymore and yet I'm still a member because it's important to me.

Sorry, Captain, but you fail to understand what I am trying to accomplish with CAP in my area.  It's not a rich man's club and contrary to your "plight" we need options for the youth.  I am gonna use the citizenship development portion of CAP's cadet program to provide some of what is missing in our area.

I'm not gonna allow the incredulous desires of someone in a distant land to upset that because he feels his "social understanding" of the situation is superior to mine.

Why you want unnecessary obsticles in the way of CAP's cadet membership is beyond my ability to comprehend your motivations.  I can assume you want only the wealthiest people to learn to serve the "Community, State and Nation," and all others to turn to the very real other options of street life.  There they will also learn "core values" (albiet negative ones), wear uniforms and have a chance at something genuine (crime).  Now, is it not better to provide a small something to them to prevent that..or at least provide an option?

If you can't or won't understand my motives...stay out of my way.

[BillB]

One thing to keep in mind, CAP doesn't fund the uniforms, USAF does. It's part of the support of the CAP funding and it's specifically for cadet uniforms. CAP did change the funding formula by not including shoes to stretch the funding out for more uniforms. But in any case the funding has to be for cadet uniforms, it can't be transferred to ES missions. If a cadet drops out during the first year, the uniform is not his property and must be returned to the Squadron. But I haven't seen Squadrons making any attempt to get the uniforms returned.

[thatonekid]

My squdron is trying to get the uniforms of the cadets that left early back but theres only so much we can do...

[NCRblues]

One of my old squadrons had a major problem with cadets coming for a few months, getting BDU's issued to them from squadron supply and then leaving and using the BDU's for paintball/airsoft...

So we sent the family's certified letters in the mail, and told them they had 30 days to return corporate property. Only one family out of 5 returned the issued items. At the meeting following the 30 day window, we called the sheriff and reported the items stolen, we also sent the family's an email informing them that we had reported it stolen. All the issued gear and uniforms were waiting the squadrons door the next day...

There is plenty CAP can do, just must have the drive to do it...

[Major Carrales]

One of my old squadrons had a major problem with cadets coming for a few months, getting BDU's issued to them from squadron supply and then leaving and using the BDU's for paintball/airsoft...

So we sent the family's certified letters in the mail, and told them they had 30 days to return corporate property. Only one family out of 5 returned the issued items. At the meeting following the 30 day window, we called the sheriff and reported the items stolen, we also sent the family's an email informing them that we had reported it stolen. All the issued gear and uniforms were waiting the squadrons door the next day...

There is plenty CAP can do, just must have the drive to do it...

Must have been great for Public Affairs...

[NCRblues]

One of my old squadrons had a major problem with cadets coming for a few months, getting BDU's issued to them from squadron supply and then leaving and using the BDU's for paintball/airsoft...

So we sent the family's certified letters in the mail, and told them they had 30 days to return corporate property. Only one family out of 5 returned the issued items. At the meeting following the 30 day window, we called the sheriff and reported the items stolen, we also sent the family's an email informing them that we had reported it stolen. All the issued gear and uniforms were waiting the squadrons door the next day...

There is plenty CAP can do, just must have the drive to do it...

Must have been great for Public Affairs...

Actually, it turned out really well...the local sheriff found out about CAP, and started to refer kids who needed a little guidance and discipline... our squadron grew by about 25 members after that encounter, plus we have not had a problem since...

and one of the family's who returned the uniforms informed us, that her kid had told her that "the squadron commander told us we could keep them"..... So we found out that the parents were not involved as much as we wanted and we also corrected that....

[FW]

One thing to keep in mind, CAP doesn't fund the uniforms, USAF does. It's part of the support of the CAP funding and it's specifically for cadet uniforms. CAP did change the funding formula by not including shoes to stretch the funding out for more uniforms. But in any case the funding has to be for cadet uniforms, it can't be transferred to ES missions. If a cadet drops out during the first year, the uniform is not his property and must be returned to the Squadron. But I haven't seen Squadrons making any attempt to get the uniforms returned.

Bill, That is not quite correct.  The funding is part of the "O&M" part of our annual grant.  The line item is determined by NHQ, NEC and the BoG.  The amount has been changed a few times over the years.  The Air Force allows the expense however, the amount spent for cadet uniforms is determined by CAP.  Hence the NEC's thought on changing the budget line item. 

[FARRIER]

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

[Major Carrales]

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

So, your saying if I take the uniforms back and make the pay for them they will love CAP more?   Or that every cadet will find work when their parents can't?  Can't take those risks...better to just get them a uniform and actually concentrate on them being cadets instead of under aged laborers in a depressed market during the GREAT RECESSION.

Must be nice to interpret the needs of our unit from a keyboard miles away.  Have it your way...and I do it mine. 

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, I'll take it under advisement.

[lordmonar]

If getting $150 for a set of uniforms is a problem....how do you send your cadets to encampment?

I will grant you that getting at risk kids into CAP is a good thing....but on the other hand.....keeping a program that is loosing money open because it helps one slice of the membership....may not be a good thing.

Also....don't think any of this brain storming is an attempt to stop your aim with this program.

Maybe we just need to focus our resources and networking to find a source of free or very cheap uniforms for your cadets.

One of the things going to ABUs will help with.

[FARRIER]

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

So, your saying if I take the uniforms back and make the pay for them they will love CAP more?   Or that every cadet will find work when their parents can't?  Can't take those risks...better to just get them a uniform and actually concentrate on them being cadets instead of under aged laborers in a depressed market during the GREAT RECESSION.

Must be nice to interpret the needs of our unit from a keyboard miles away.  Have it your way...and I do it mine. 

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, I'll take it under advisement.

Joe, if you can't comprehend it, I won't waste any more of my time explaining it to you.

[Major Carrales]

If getting $150 for a set of uniforms is a problem....how do you send your cadets to encampment?

I would rather they save the money for the activities than have to spend it on a uniform by simply being in the program.  I would also save the sponsorship for the greater things.

I will grant you that getting at risk kids into CAP is a good thing....but on the other hand.....keeping a program that is loosing money open because it helps one slice of the membership....may not be a good thing.

Let's not put the cart before the horse, there is no program without cadets.  The more cadets are actually helped, the more worth it has.  If all we have are program from those with means, there is an inherentcy issue present.  What is the purpose of a cadet program if not to provide opportunities?  Saying "sorry, your too poor" is problematic.

Also....don't think any of this brain storming is an attempt to stop your aim with this program.

I will grant you that, but you are well aware of my propensity to call for limited/minimal costs.  Providing the uniform, and not even all of it, still is nothing compared to other cadet programs.  How much is spent by JROTC?  ACA cadets?

Maybe we just need to focus our resources and networking to find a source of free or very cheap uniforms for your cadets.

That would be most helpful.  Old Lincoln County used to sell reasonable uniforms at a good cost.  It disappeared.  It was from a place like that that I was able to obtain lots of things.

One of the things going to ABUs will help with.

Agreed, but that only solves the field uniform issue.

[Major Carrales]

Why is it blasphemy to suggest that cadets buy their own uniforms?

Wow...a "CLASS WARRIOR" among us.  CAP is not just for the rich.

Because not everyone has access to uniform items.  To expect a cadet to earn vast amounts of money when they are 12 is not a reality in South Texas, or most places.

Adults are a different matter.

Why should JROTC get free uniforms and CAP not?

Joe:

     When I was a cadet, there was no FCU. You were either issued surplus uniforms out of wing supply or you or the parents purchased them. Being from a single parent family, but not old enough to work, I did alot of odd jobs, including laying irrigation pipe (lived in a rual area) to get the money for the uniform parts I couldn't get from supply and CAP activities. Like Maj. Harris said, its a motivator.

     If the funding continues for the FCU, great. If funding levels are reduced, so be it. Units and individuals will need to get creative. Joe, you short change alot of kids by your view. If they see the organization for what it is A GREAT ONE TO BELONG TOO they will do whats needed to get those items.

So, your saying if I take the uniforms back and make the pay for them they will love CAP more?   Or that every cadet will find work when their parents can't?  Can't take those risks...better to just get them a uniform and actually concentrate on them being cadets instead of under aged laborers in a depressed market during the GREAT RECESSION.

Must be nice to interpret the needs of our unit from a keyboard miles away.  Have it your way...and I do it mine. 

Thanks for the advice and suggestion, I'll take it under advisement.

Joe, if you can't comprehend it, I won't waste any more of my time explaining it to you.

Your opinion is noted, that is all I have to say about that.

[lordmonar]

Let's not put the cart before the horse, there is no program without cadets.  The more cadets are actually helped, the more worth it has.  If all we have are program from those with means, there is an inherentcy issue present.  What is the purpose of a cadet program if not to provide opportunities?  Saying "sorry, your too poor" is problematic.

I understand where you are comming from....but there is still a bottom line.  $150 for uniforms is too much?  $200 for encampment?  $35 for membership dues?

Why not just make CAP free all around?  I know that I hate the slippery slope argument....but this program costs money.  I understand your goal to hold down costs....but the thought expercise for today is what impact would we have if we stopped or shifted when the FCU is issued.   Trying to say that this is some sort of class snobbery is not helping.

I will grant you that, but you are well aware of my propensity to call for limited/minimal costs.  Providing the uniform, and not even all of it, still is nothing compared to other cadet programs.  How much is spent by JROTC?  ACA cadets?

Don't know about ACA....but JROTC it paid for by the USAF and the School District.  Let's look at say the Boy Scouts?  No one gives them free uniforms.

That would be most helpful.  Old Lincoln County used to sell reasonable uniforms at a good cost.  It disappeared.  It was from a place like that that I was able to obtain lots of things.

Well all USAF bases have an Airman's Attic and that is where we get all our surplus uniforms.  TXWG has several bases....it just takes a little leg work and truck and you can get more uniforms then you can handle.

One of the things going to ABUs will help with.

Agreed, but that only solves the field uniform issue.

You get the Blues from the same place you would get the ABUs.

[Major Carrales]

Boy Scouts are not a viable comparison, they operate stores in their various areas (reducing shipping costs to individuals for merit badges and the like) and make uniforms generally available and reasonably priced ( I visited one such place in Corpus Christi late last year.  If I had a Vanguard within 1 1/2 I too could get uniforms from there).  Additionally, The Courts often have sponsorship via churches that can pay for lots of the uniforms or even off set the matter if they desire...and many do.

I should point out that my ire on this subject came from a post calling my position de facto  blasphemy.  The smack of class warfare was evident.  Make CAP too expensive for the poor to attend, it keeps "them" out.  That was followed by referring to CAP as a mere hobby.  Disgusting.  CAP is a service organization with a true mandate from the Federal Government. 

I'm willing to stand down on that point provided y'all are ready to see cadet membership drop.  The rich don't need CAP...the poor do need the options.

They begin their service in CAP with $31 that goes off into the CAP aether. 

The thought exercise is one that sees your position challenged as well as mine.  I present the impact at the squadron level for more than just our unit.  Its easy to present this as a cost cutting measure from a desk at National...'tis another matter to stress already strapped squadrons. 

No one has addressed the issue seriously of what to do with those cadets in their first year that might not have a uniform because some genius wants to divert cadet funds for possible senior side
"pet projects" and the like.  Currently National provides very little to any given unit to accomplish their mission financially, now you people want to take away what little bit helps.

I would suggest the better "mental exercise" would be how to generate mechanisms to keep the small tickle of uniform flowing. 

[JayT]

Major Carrales, it seems every post you've replied to in this thread has been filled with rhetoric about class warfare and woes of the finacial state of your unit and the area it operates in. These are hard economic times, for all of us. I'm personally surviving paramedic school on around a $100-$150 a week working a tour and teaching in addition to my full time rotations (with the help of my parents.)

Everytime someone has offered a solution to your apparent supply problem, or a suggestion, you go back to your original "my area is too poor for that" statement. The fact of the matter is CAP costs money. However noble your intentions are, CAP costs money. There have been plenty of stories here and CS of squadrons being able to issue entire sets of BDUs, service uniforms, gear and the like because of a little effort and some well placed letters and phone calls.

[FW]

Tough times mean tough decisions.  Leaders must make the choices to keep CAP going.  And, with a budget that is about $300k less than needed, where do you make the cuts?  Do you delay giving cadets a uniform or do you lay off another employee at NHQ?.  Staff salaries have already been frozen for two years.  Or, maybe we cut O'Flights?  Training?   Cut the size of the aircraft fleet? 

Next year, we may need to deal with even less.  So?

[Major Carrales]

Major Carrales, it seems every post you've replied to in this thread has been filled with rhetoric about class warfare and woes of the finacial state of your unit and the area it operates in. These are hard economic times, for all of us. I'm personally surviving paramedic school on around a $100-$150 a week working a tour and teaching in addition to my full time rotations (with the help of my parents.)

Everytime someone has offered a solution to your apparent supply problem, or a suggestion, you go back to your original "my area is too poor for that" statement. The fact of the matter is CAP costs money. However noble your intentions are, CAP costs money. There have been plenty of stories here and CS of squadrons being able to issue entire sets of BDUs, service uniforms, gear and the like because of a little effort and some well placed letters and phone calls.

The point is to keep costs down to the membership so that money can be applied to training, ES resources and Cadet activities.  I can't see why the member's pocketbook is OK to be an "endless" pit of money, yet the organization can't fight to keep a program that is one of few providing new uniforms to cadets.  Either the Cadet Program has value, warranting the investment...or it does not.  They've wanted us to be more with less now they want us to prepare to do even more with NOTHING.

I may give an inaccurate description of my situation, but so many of you clamor about retention and falling numbers, yet you support these measures that will only worsen that problem. 

One thing this is true and might offer a solution to this is to have WING coordinate these uniforms to make up for the deficit.  If National is no longer going to provide the Free Cadet Uniform...then maybe Wing should stockpile and or collect an inventory.

Texas Wing is large, its considerable effort to get to San Antonio and other places with a USAF presense.  I would not mind turning my stockpile of uniforms over to Wing, and those of others, for storage and catalog if it meant I could send a uniform request and get uniforms when needed.

A Wing uniform depot under the stewardship of a unit or group might do this.

Now, lets see how many will take issue with my solution.  I'm sure it would be many...

[lordmonar]

No issue at .

It is what we do here at Nellis.

We tap the local sources for uniforms and store them.  Any unit that wants some or need some is free to come by and get them.  We have even shipped boxes of them to other units on request.

The gist of the OP is that the USAF who pays for the FCU is looking to reduce costs.....so that they can spend more on ES and CP stuff.

So how that will affect YOUR operations is imporantant.  But you were the one who took the posting out of context and turned this into some sort of class thing.

We got poor cadets here in Las Vegas too.  We have subsidised encampment, insignia and ES gear.  We have a store room full of uniforms.  If the FCU went away.....it would not affect my squadron all that much.  There are a lot of things that CAP at the national and wing level could do to offset/replace the FCU and setting up wing level uniform supplies is one possiblity.