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ZigZag911
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Posts: 1,987

« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2007, 04:16:37 AM »

An Incident Commander can be a senior member without rank, and boss around everyone including generals, as long as they aren't currently in the command structure.

Even if they are in command structure, if signed in as mission participants, they answer to IC....if not, they are visitors or evaluators, and have no direct say on mission either..... a Wing/Region or National CC could relieve an IC (or suspend or revoke  IC's qualifications)....but IC can't simply be ignored, regardless of rank involved

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2007, 04:24:32 AM by MIKE » Report to moderator   Logged
ZigZag911
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Posts: 1,987

« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2007, 04:20:01 AM »

Because we have the no-grade-wearing golf shirt combo, and that no real authority derives from our earned grade in CAP, and because of a host of other reasons, one has to wonder what our rank system ought to be.  The way is stands now, our senior member grades could be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I and it wouldn't change the way the system operates.


I've long believed that a change in titles (squadron CC to 'local leader, group CC to 'district supervisor', wing CC to 'state manager'), along with altering our grade insignia to name tags with position titles described above, would send the wnnabees scurrying for the exits!
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2007, 04:27:59 AM »



Another issue I see, and you can often see it emphasized through discussions on this board, is that we get too many non-rated (non-pilot) persons in Command positions.  We are the Civil Air Patrol, not the Civil Ground Patrol or anything else.  The organization's roots are in flying.  Now, I'm not saying that a person must be a pilot to be a Commander but there should be a much higher percentage than there are currently.  Far too often I see Wing Commanders that don't fly and have no real interest in it.  That should be very much the exception but I don't think it is.  In the "real" AF, it's pretty tough to rise to the top if you're not wearing wings, just as it's difficult to rise in the Army if you don't have jump wings.   

The rated people "just want to fly"....don't want to be bothered with petty details like finance reports/committees. audits, subordinate unit inspections, Basic Encampment....the list goes on and on.

There has been a move such as you suggested in certain wings and regions in the past 4 or 5 years.....pilots are taking charge (in some instances, despite little or no CAP experience)

Once they 'take charge', they 'just want to fly'.......so cadet programs, aerospace, ES other  than flight ops, all get short shrift.

This trend happens every few years (I've been around 30 plus).....generally those pilots who just want the titles and the shoulder hardware that accompany them get bored real quickly, take their exaggerated ranks back to a "flying squadron", and are rarely seen anywhere near a form, file, or report again!




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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2007, 05:40:32 AM »

Because we have the no-grade-wearing golf shirt combo, and that no real authority derives from our earned grade in CAP, and because of a host of other reasons, one has to wonder what our rank system ought to be.  The way is stands now, our senior member grades could be A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, and I and it wouldn't change the way the system operates.


I've long believed that a change in titles (squadron CC to 'local leader, group CC to 'district supervisor', wing CC to 'state manager'), along with altering our grade insignia to name tags with position titles described above, would send the wnnabees scurrying for the exits!

It will also sent the"Ustabees" scurrying.  I came back to CAP after a career in the military, (coming up from the ranks to major), to use my expertise to help lead a military organization and to train and develop cadets, as I was trained and developed by the World War II vets back in the 1960's.

If I wanted to work for Sears, I'd do so, and get a paycheck for it.
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Another former CAP officer
Dragoon
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« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2007, 02:19:42 PM »

Well, not all the "usetabees."  I'm here for the work.

The structure described is that used by the CGAUX.  They have the rank insignia, but not the title.
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Chief Chiafos
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« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2007, 07:34:23 PM »

Gentlemen (Ladies too).  The topic here is NCOs, not Officers, flight status, or incident command.  Please stay on topic.
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DNall
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« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2007, 07:42:07 PM »

Roger Chief, but I think part of the issue in digesting NCOs is understanding how they fit into an already broken span of authority. I know your intent is to reject that borken system & set about fixing it from a position of experience & strength. On the other hand, the natural position of people in those spots (good & the bad) is to figure out how you fit in relation to them staying where they are. That's probably not stated well, but that seems to be what people aren't understanding.
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2007, 07:54:12 PM »

Gentlemen (Ladies too).  The topic here is NCOs, not Officers, flight status, or incident command.  Please stay on topic.

Chief, DNall is right....we need to look at the whole situation to make sensible decisions and recommendations.
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Dragoon
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« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2007, 07:58:40 PM »

Or to put it another way, tacking on an NCO corp with an ill defined role and a lack of meaningful authority onto an officer corps with an ill defined role and lack of meaningful authority doesn't get at the root of the problem.

We're more screwed up than just lacking professional NCOs.....
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Chief Chiafos
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« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2007, 01:48:01 AM »

The reason you haven’t got a grip on the NCO concept is because I have been an NCO for so long I just think like one – and you, on the other hand have no real knowledge of what an NCO is, does, or the place the NCO has in an organization.  So, bear with me and I’ll try to explain.

The first military organization we know any thing about is the Egyptian army of Pharaoh Rameses II in 1,400 BC.  His victory over the Hittites at the battle on the plains of Maggedo (Armageddon) is carved in stone.  On those carvings, our equivalent of the NCO are set in places of honor.  The Roman’s had NCOs called Centurions.  Julius Caesar, who knew the names of only a few of his key staff officers (tribunes), knew the first names, and had a personal relationship with, each and every one of his 485 Centurions!  Caesar once executed a young tribune for failure to immediately carry out the orders of a senior Centurion – what a way to send a message to second lieutenants.  The lesson is: no military structure can exist, let alone function, without NCOs.

Imagine if you will, what would happen to the Air Force if all its NCOs suddenly disappeared.  The United States Air Force would look and act exactly like CAP… and would collapse overnight!  Because every job requiring a decision, or training the new guy, to inspecting the barracks will fall on the officers – they would get nothing, and I mean nothing done – sound familiar?

I’ll use an analogy, albeit a poor one:  think of a military organization, as a heating and cooling system, very much like a house furnace.  The officer decides when it should run, the temperature to set, what rooms to heat or cool, etc.  The NCO heads a crew to ensure the system responds to the officer’s commands.  The NCO is the resident “expert” on the system.  He trains the new technicians, inspects the system for problems, and ensures its ready to instantly respond.  He teaches the system to a new officer, so, some day, that officer will know what he’s doing when its his turn to be the commander.  It goes something like this: The officer says, hey Sarge I can’t switch from heat to cool, what’s going on?  Sir, there was a faulty relay (Airman Smith).  OK, Sarge, replace it.  Sir, I already have (Smith is now counting ice bergs in Greenland) and should it should switch just fine now.

Or like this: Sergeant 4 stripes calls sergeant 7 stripes at another furnace location.  Hey Sarge, he says, you worked on the model 607 once didn’t you?  Sure did, what’s the problem?  Well, the heat exchanger doesn’t look the right color at max capacity, been going on a couple of days now.  Yea, seen that before, just open the damper to full and replace the filters at 100 hours instead of 150, call me back if that doesn’t work.

Or like this: Sarge to officer: Sir, you can’t task this system for 80,000 BTUs, it can’t do it.  Keep this up and we’ll (notice we, not you) burn the house down.  Officer, well, how can we get it there?  Sir, We’ll have to replace the firebox, which ought to it.  OK, Sarge, get it done.  All the officer needs to know is whether or not the system is running efficiently.  It’s not his job to actually run it.

I hope this is helpful to you.  If not, I’ll try again.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2007, 02:21:46 AM »

The one area where I see NCOs as actually being needed in CAP is in the cadet programs section.  Somone that knows the basics of military customs, courtsies, drill, etc. down pat could be a real asset to the cadets.  I'm not saying that non prior-service or former officers don't know or can't learn all that stuff, but it would bring a real air of credibility to the program and would actually simulate boot camp, etc. a little better as well (they've all seen the movies -- they all know that a Lt. Col. isn't supposed to be teaching raw recruits Left Face, Right Face). 

I have a much harder time seeing how NCOs can be used in the rest of CAP given that we have no real enlisted people for them to supervise "to get the work done". 
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shorning
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« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2007, 02:26:17 AM »

The reason you haven’t got a grip on the NCO concept is because I have been an NCO for so long I just think like one – and you, on the other hand have no real knowledge of what an NCO is, does, or the place the NCO has in an organization.  So, bear with me and I’ll try to explain.

Hey, Chief?  If you're going to throw insults at some one, could you at least quote them so we know what the heck you're talking about?  Otherwise it's hard to appreciate the condescending tone.
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Chief Chiafos
Recruit

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« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2007, 02:39:10 AM »

Shorning,

I had no intention of insulting anyone, or to be condesending.  If you re-read the first sentence I have assumed the responsibility for failure to explain the NCO sufficiently to those who don't really know very much about it - and I am doing the best I can to educate them.  The only tone here, is yours.  Do you have something positive to say?  I hope so.
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capchiro
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« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2007, 02:42:37 AM »

Chief,

I can't believe your last reponse.  NCO's don't walk on water, despite all of your chest pounding.  Also, you might consider the success that the CAP program has had over the last 60 years, the lives saved, the cadets trained, the sucessful encampments and the hard working dedicated people that have made this happen inspite of your absence and the absence of an NCO core.  I think you owe an apology to all CAP members for your egotistical and self-grandising statements.  I have known my share of fat, sloppy, inefficient, NCO lifers.  Now, if you have something to present, please do so without attacking anybody that isn't an NCO and try to offer something other than criticism for a system that is still better than anything you have offered to fix it with.  
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Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154
Chief Chiafos
Recruit

Posts: 45

« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2007, 02:52:15 AM »

Capchiro,

Why are you being so abusive?  Is this the example a Lieutenant Colonel should set for others?  Surely you can explain your point of view in a more honorable way... Oh, Well...
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flyguy06
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« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2007, 02:54:20 AM »

Its responces like the previous two of the Chief's that me suspect if this poster is in fact the "real" Chief. If it is and he is carrying on like this. We are in trouble.

But like I said before, I dont even know why this conversation is still going on. This Chief is just an advisor. Nothing he does will directly effect us at the Squadron Level. Not directly.
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Chief Chiafos
Recruit

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« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2007, 03:16:01 AM »

Well, No point in going on here.  I have a request for you.  Email me a list of 5 things in CAP you'd like to see changed or improved.  Remember, there is just one of me and thousands of you.  Try to keep within the realm of what is doable.  I can't change the CAP Charter or anything like that, but I may, for example be able to get you better services from Vanguard.  Those items that reappear consistantly in your requests will give me direction and priorities.

Thank you all for your time and interest here.
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Robert Hartigan
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« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2007, 03:34:02 AM »

If I may and I will add... ... the topic boils down to the role of the technician verses the role of the generalist and/or managers. CAP needs more technicians than generalists or managers. You must agree? Furthermore, you must agree it does not matter what they are called; Captain, Sergeant or Member or what they wear; stripes, bars or pokey dots, the missions are what matters. The titles and insignia are ceremonial and customary. Wouldn’t  you still join CAP if your title was Mister?

Essentially by program design we are all technicians until we have achieved Level IV of the senior member program. Are we used as such, no?

The organization is weak because it more often than not promotes Level I, II and III senior members to manager positions before they have obtained the mastery of skill sets deemed important to the organization as previously outlined in the regulation and policies established by those with prior experience and training. This is because those currently charged with administering the organization are caught in a “Catch 22” and put the need to fill a vacant position ahead of the consequences of filling the position with a less than qualified candidate.  Some of those candidates do well because of transferable skill sets and experiences while other are left to struggle with their own professional development while leading others or managing programs because they may have demonstrated an aptitude or enthusiasm for the assignment. If the member does not have the ability the situation grows and becomes less and less tolerable for those in charge because of the exponential property of human nature until it finally results in a perceived poor performance that is unacceptable and forces the vacancy again.  This typically results in a termination and a loss of corporate legacy knowledge even though gained under less than desirable circumstances. This practice of promoting to fill, however appealing or pressured must stop if the organization is to succeed. To borrow a Toyota proverb: Stop production so production never stops!

I do not believe there is anything inherently wrong with the current professional development program; when it is administered correctly it has proven itself by producing quality technicians and leaders for the organization.  The problems addressed on this forum are not solved by bringing back NCO’s, electing wing commander, wearing new uniforms or separating from the USAF.

1.   The issues addressed here are solved by a review of the critical paths and initiatives used to achieve our missions. Revise and eliminate over processing of information and resources. Establishing clear and concise goals while providing membership with the tools necessary to achieve said goals.
2.   Understanding what it means to be an NCO and an Officer in the military and applying correctly what you learned to your current situation in CAP.
3.   Standardized administration of the program correctly to achieve total patrol uniformity.

The idea or concept of NCO’s in CAP is not a permanent fix to any problem in the organization because it is limited to the desire and tenure of the National Commander. If the next Commander decides to do away with NCO’s then a new question will be answered by those NCO’s: How deep are your core values if you can not put on officer grade insignia? The organization will still need technicians!
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<><><>#996
 GRW   #2717
Hotel 179
Member

Posts: 51
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« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2007, 06:23:00 AM »

Surely you can explain your point of view in a more honorable way... Oh, Well...

Don't feed the trolls.
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Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida
DNall
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« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2007, 07:04:57 AM »

Everybody be nice now or this thread is going to follow the last one, straight to hell!!!

I think the people talking here have a better grasp of what an NCO is than the majority of the rest of CAP. I think with just a couple excpetions everybody in the thread has or is serving in the military, couple SNCOs - some in better climates than the nippy 50 degrees I had this afternoon, how ya doin over there sir?

First, CAP did have an NCO corps for the first 45 or so of that 65 year history. There's good & bad points about it, & the way the officer corps was in those days because of it. The current model of "only prior-service keeping stripes if they want to" is a hold over from that transition for RNCOs that didn't want to go officer. There was not at the time or since any more consideration of it then that.

I think we all grasp what an NCO does in the military. I don't think anyone has issue with using them in the same role in CAP, and typically that's the case or else they are really good & used as a specialized master instructor or something. That's the individual basis tactical level, fine no problems there. If you're just talking about that & building a networking channel to make them all good at their job, well that's silly. That's just good communication & SHOULD exist in every specialty track. We've talked about that along with specialty track managers before. That's not a big picture NCO corps program though, that's what I'm not seeing yet.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you want to do here. My impression was you want to run a bunch of prior service NCOs into stripes & use them like a 1Sgt system to advise/mentor/train officers out of the broken BS lack of standards we got now, while providing advice & representation of membership up the chain (like CAC & Sr Enlisted Advisor rolled into one) - call it the roaming quality control police slammed together w/ CAC for adults. I can see that, I like it a lot actually in theory. I don't know how well it'd work out to put all those functions on one set of people or if there's enough of them to carry that load, but I'm interested in all the help we can get.

Anyway, got the tactical, what's the strategic & how does it fix the rest of teh system from within?
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