Regulations to get "maksman", "sharpshooter", ect.?

[arajca]

Howzabouts this...

[lordmonar]

That sounds good.

Here is what I came up with.

[Eclipse]

CT is a lot of things, but a working committee is not one of them, especially when you consider all the times we've offered assistance and opinion before only to be ignored.

So the one time where our opinions and assistance is requested you poo poo it? 

No, but it's been asked before with notable crickets as the end results.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

That sounds good.

Here is what I came up with.

I would suggest find / replace weapon with firearm. This is the terminology used in all NRA courses except personal protection. Why buy trouble w/ the w word?

A marksmanship ribbon for completing a safety course? 

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Howzabouts this...

The Sharpshooter medal has bars available. I'd suggest adding language that the highest bar be allowed. All 9 looks silly.

As I mentioned in an other post I don't think a ribbon for the basic course is in order. 
I'd suggest

Pro-Marksman  ribbon
Marksman Bronze Star
Marksman 1st Class 2 Bronze Stars
Sharpshooter Silver Star (remove Bronze Star(s))
Expert Gold Star
Distinguished Expert 2 Gold Stars

I've run a junior rifle program for 10 years and have only awarded 2 Expert Ratings and 0 DE

[Hawk200]

I've got no problem with allowing a badge, we just need to specify what badges. But, I don't feel that we need our own ribbon. Recognizing accomplishments is one thing. Making it look like it's one of our accomplishments is something else entirely, and not a path we should be going down. If it's not a program that we specifically run, our own awards are not appropriate.

[lordmonar]

That sounds good.

Here is what I came up with.

I would suggest find / replace weapon with firearm. This is the terminology used in all NRA courses except personal protection. Why buy trouble w/ the w word?

A marksmanship ribbon for completing a safety course?

Yep.

If we make it an "expert" marksmanship ribbon....then we have to fight over everyone's definition of this.

NRA has marksman, pro marksman, et all.

The USAF has "qualified" and "Expert"
Army and marines have Marksman, sharpshooter, expert.
The CMP has distinguished and international distinguished shooter.

So....let's keep it simple.  Pass the basic marksmanship course...and you get a ribbon.  If you want to show different levels of proficiency...then we can set up more rules for devices and such.

[lordmonar]

I've got no problem with allowing a badge, we just need to specify what badges. But, I don't feel that we need our own ribbon. Recognizing accomplishments is one thing. Making it look like it's one of our accomplishments is something else entirely, and not a path we should be going down. If it's not a program that we specifically run, our own awards are not appropriate.

the problem with using other people's badges....is that it means when they change we have to also.  It also limits where you can get the fire arms training from.  (i.e. if you get your fire arms training from JROTC or a USAF firearms course you get nothing).

Having our own badge/ribbon...but using other peoples training allows us to stay the same even if they change.

[Zen Master Charlie]

As of today, you can no longer earn this badge in the Civil Air Patrol.

The only badge we had was the NRA-Sponsored training activity which was changed and is no longer addressed in our regulations.

I wish everyone knew that. I'm still seeing just about every NRA badge under the sun being worn by cadets. And I'm constantly losing the battle when I speak up about it.

My god tell me about it. I'm in the same boat. I was the CAC Chair for COWG a couple years ago, and one of the things I made sure to address was the NRA Badges, and we had informed all Squadron Commanders that they were not allowed, and the reasoning with citations, but some squadrons in COWG continue to do this non-existant program and give their cadets badges. (We did for a while too, until I figured this out)  Then when I see these cadets (usually of higher grade than me) I politley inform them that under my term the wing had said no to these, and they chew me out infront of everyone for suggesting the idea they might be wrong. Its rather imbarrasing.      I was involved on the orgional thread that brought this up and made a big push to get it corrected nationally (even suggesting we reinstate the program in cooperation witht he NRA) but that didnt work out so well...

[Zen Master Charlie]

I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I'll go ahead. I was involved in the origional thread that someone brought this NRA badge thing up on (at the time I was wearing my NRA Badge unaware of my fault)

I took this matter to COWG CAC at the time, (I was serving as the COWG CAC Chair) and addressed this issue. I had to convince the senior staff before we could announce this mistake to the wing. The one thing mainly behind the reasoning we can not wear these NRA Badges in in two parts:

1: CAPM 39-1 Spacifically refferances the "NRA Junior Marksmanship Program" According to NRA members, this program has not existed since the late 80's.

2: The Badges cadets are wearing were not from the NRA Junior Marksmanship program. They are from a similar program, but not one by that name, and is no longer recognized by the NRA as well. (Hence why its so hard to find these badges.) The program that the NRA is conducting with CAP cadets, is not the same one CAPM 39-1 refferances.

My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it.  lol

I hope that clears up the reasoning behind it.

[cap235629]

Howzabouts this...

I like this one the best of those presented but prefer a solid colored ribbon so that the attachments are more visible.

[arajca]

My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it.  lol

Or update the reg to reference the current program. Much simpler.

[MIKE]

Instead of stars.  Navy/CG style S and E for Sharpshooter and Expert. 

[cap235629]

I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I'll go ahead. I was involved in the origional thread that someone brought this NRA badge thing up on (at the time I was wearing my NRA Badge unaware of my fault)

I took this matter to COWG CAC at the time, (I was serving as the COWG CAC Chair) and addressed this issue. I had to convince the senior staff before we could announce this mistake to the wing. The one thing mainly behind the reasoning we can not wear these NRA Badges in in two parts:

1: CAPM 39-1 Spacifically refferances the "NRA Junior Marksmanship Program" According to NRA members, this program has not existed since the late 80's.

2: The Badges cadets are wearing were not from the NRA Junior Marksmanship program. They are from a similar program, but not one by that name, and is no longer recognized by the NRA as well. (Hence why its so hard to find these badges.) The program that the NRA is conducting with CAP cadets, is not the same one CAPM 39-1 refferances.

My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it.  lol

I hope that clears up the reasoning behind it.

Stop thinking so much 

The actual medal presented has not changed.  The program and certificates have.

The NRA will not re-introduce a program just to meet a CAP requirement.  It is so much easier to fix our regulation.

As an aside, I sent a proposal to NHQ and Curt Lafond regarding the actual wording of 52-16 has about who is deemed a qualified instructor.  The language fails to recognize 2 of the largest certifying bos
dies in shooting sports, 4-H and the CMP.  My suggestion came as a result of having to get a "waiver" to be recognized as an instructor as I am certified by both of those bodies. My suggestion didn't make the latest revision.

Interestingly enough, all JROTC marksmanship instructors in all branches are REQUIRED to be certified through the CMP.

[Zen Master Charlie]

My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it.  lol

Or update the reg to reference the current program. Much simpler.

I'd agree, but unfortunatly the problem there is in my point #2. The program that these medals went with doesnt exist anymore either. The program that the NRA is using with CAP cadets is something completley seperate of the Junior Marksmanship Program, and the program the medals went with is well. (These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)

To be honest, there are so many holes in this one, I have to wonder who the person was that came up with the idea to give their cadets these badges many many years ago, in all honesty, this person had to be looking very hard for these medals and trying to make it look like they were the right ones (I think they were doing a little dirty work and decieving everyone) 

[cap235629]

(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)

Yes they were

[Zen Master Charlie]

I dont know if anyone has said this already, but I'll go ahead. I was involved in the origional thread that someone brought this NRA badge thing up on (at the time I was wearing my NRA Badge unaware of my fault)

I took this matter to COWG CAC at the time, (I was serving as the COWG CAC Chair) and addressed this issue. I had to convince the senior staff before we could announce this mistake to the wing. The one thing mainly behind the reasoning we can not wear these NRA Badges in in two parts:

1: CAPM 39-1 Spacifically refferances the "NRA Junior Marksmanship Program" According to NRA members, this program has not existed since the late 80's.

2: The Badges cadets are wearing were not from the NRA Junior Marksmanship program. They are from a similar program, but not one by that name, and is no longer recognized by the NRA as well. (Hence why its so hard to find these badges.) The program that the NRA is conducting with CAP cadets, is not the same one CAPM 39-1 refferances.

My suggestion, reinstate the program in cooperation with the NRA, rather than stripping these poor cadets of their medal they thought they earned. I havent worn mine now for about two years because of this. I kinda' miss it.  lol

I hope that clears up the reasoning behind it.

The actual medal presented has not changed.  The program and certificates have.

Thats the other point I see alot from people, and you do have a lagit point, I may be overthinking this, and maybe the person who wrote CAPM 39-1 did mean it to be the way people interprit it, but in a time line of events, here is how i see it.

(A) 1980's: the Official Junior Marksmanship program ends.

(B) between 1980's and early 2000's: A new NRA program was created which the medals were awarded in. This program was also ened recently (within last 10 years)

(C) 2005: CAPM 39-1 is published refferancing the Junior Marksmanship program which has not existed for a couple decades at this point.

(D) 2005-2006 (Shortly after 39-1 release): Someone connects A and B and makes X. X being the event that sparks confusion.

So in conclusion, yes the awards cadets are wearing from the NRA are probably those intended by 39-1, and this should be looked at, but for now, there are so many loopholes in this, I think its better to just take them off and then go forward with figuring it out. But the biggest problem is the medals cadets are being awarded are from a program that no longer exists. And to this point I havent heard of any NRA people noticing and getting upset, but all it takes is one...

[Zen Master Charlie]

(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)

Yes they were

No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.

[cap235629]

(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)

Yes they were

No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.

The physical medal has been the same for well over 30 years.  I earned mine in 1981 and it is the same medal.

[Zen Master Charlie]

(These medals were not used for the Junior Marksmanship Program.)

Yes they were

No, they were not. These medals were used for a more recent program, simply called the "Marksmanship Program" Through the NRA for youth between the ages of 8 and 18. The requirements for these qualifications ARE different than those of the Junior Marksmanship Program. Also, this newer "Marksmanship Program" Is no longer used by the NRA as well. The only refferances to this program, believe it or not, are those made by CAP members arguing and discussing this same topic. Google it, the first full page of results are CAP folk.

The physical medal has been the same for well over 30 years.  I earned mine in 1981 and it is the same medal.

Ok, I believe you, I'm a man of all fairness, I was wrong on a small bit, but that still doesnt change the fact that neither of these programs exist anymore. And the medals there from can not be awarded anymore. Hence why the NRA doesnt sell them and you have to search days for a third part who does.