Should Ground Teams Be Required To Have GPS?

[RADIOMAN015]

Right now my understanding is there's no mandatory requirements for ground teams to have portable GPS devices as part of the team equipment.   Teams can deploy into the woods basically with just maps & compass.   As far as I know just about every other ground search & rescue organization deploys with GPS.   Of course they also do night ops and unless the moon is bright all those mountains look the same.

Hey at least IF I have to jump out of my vehicle and rambo it up the hill to find that crashed aircraft in the middle of the night with by ELT finder, I'll just pull my GPS out of my vehicle and head into the woods.  Might even bring another member or two with me OR deputize someone as an honorary CAP search team member :angel:

HOWEVER, all kidding aside shouldn't our teams really have GPS, and a team without such, might not be as effective  
RM   

[N Harmon]

HOWEVER, all kidding aside shouldn't our teams really have GPS, and a team without such, might not be as effective

The operative word is "might". A GPS is nice, and makes keeping track of things easy. But they're not a panacea for bad navigation skills.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If you can't operate in the woods without a GPS, then you shouldn't operate in the woods, especially at night.

[coudano]

quickest and easiest way to coordinate with an aircrew.
my vote is yes.

[BTCS1*]

At LIGSAR and other SAREXs, I only use GPS to check my location and report back to base. Otherwise, map and compass is the way to go.

[RiverAux]

Probably the better question is whether there are ground teams being deployed WITHOUT GPS?  I doubt there are many.  I think every GT in our wing has had CAP-issued units for 10+ years and I bet most GTs go out with at least one personally-owned unit in someone's gear.

[Major Lord]

While I would like to believe that every ground team has a graduate of Ranger School capable of navigating in total darkness, I think its more likely that the average ground team leader is not so trained. You can get by without a GPS, just like you can get buy without shoes, but you would be a fool not to take advantage of one if you knew in advance you were going into the boondocks. Remember that death is just Nature's way of telling us to slow down......

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

Require is a hard word.

GPS as team gear or personal gear?
Who's gonna pay for it?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't have a GPS, nor do I plan on getting one. If I had one I would only use it for reporting my position to mission base. Other than that everything I do is on a map and compass.

[Spaceman3750]

I own one as a convenience and a backup. I try darn hard to be the best GTL I can, but I'm not going to puff out my chest and say "I don't need a GPS, I know how to use a compass!" and then get into some situation where I can't find my position to save my life. It's not a situation I anticipate, but I also don't want to be "that guy" that got his team lost at the SAREVAL or worse.

That said, the GPS I own I didn't pay enough attention to when I bought it, so it has insufficient space for all of the maps in my wing. So I'm pretty much stuck with paper maps + GPS until such time as I can purchase a GPS with expansion capabilities.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I own one as a convenience and a backup. I try darn hard to be the best GTL I can, but I'm not going to puff out my chest and say "I don't need a GPS, I know how to use a compass!" and then get into some situation where I can't find my position to save my life. It's not a situation I anticipate, but I also don't want to be "that guy" that got his team lost at the SAREVAL or worse.

That said, the GPS I own I didn't pay enough attention to when I bought it, so it has insufficient space for all of the maps in my wing. So I'm pretty much stuck with paper maps + GPS until such time as I can purchase a GPS with expansion capabilities.

Now I have to say, yes it would be a convenience to have and would be a nice asset were something to happen, but I am not spending my money on one. They are expensive and I am already stretched pretty thing financially as is. I only have the gear I have because I had it from the Army.

[coudano]

Ours is team gear, and it was paid for by the squadron account from funds raised.

we also have a gps data logger for our camera.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Honestly I would be happy with one of the big old gPS devices from the early 90s.

[ol'fido]

We don't need a regulation to cover every conceivable situation a ground team could run into. We're already regulated to death. Having said that:

1. Most GTs I've seen lately are over geared. They have so many gadgets, gizmos, and widgets that they are probably over burdened. I am sure that if you asked most would produce 2 or 3 GPSs at any given time.

2.  Most cell phones have a GPS function.Even a dumb redneck like me has a phone with a GPS function and it works 99.9% of the time. The other .01% I can pretty well land navigate my way through. Thank you Tropic Lightning Light Fighter school.

3. The first rule of being a GT leader is "KNOW YOUR TURF".  While I don't know the details of every little draw and hollow in Southern Illinois I have a pretty ggod knowledge of the general lay of the land. This comes from map recons and day trips for pleasure.

4. Before I go into a specific area, I make sure I know which roads, creeks, RRs, etc. form a boundary for that particular area. This way if I do become disoriented, I pick a cardinal direction and walk till I hit the linear feature. Then I walk to where it intersects with another linear feature and I know where I am.

Sitting around trying to figure out more regulations is not the solution.

[billford1]

If you're trying to coordinate with an air crew particularly at night there's a good chance you may find yourselves in unfamiliar surroundings. If you need to get there in a hurry  there's no substitute for being able to report your position to your GBD particularly if you become stranded in a rural area where there aren't street signs. I recall a Sarex a long time ago when a GTL trainee reported to Base that they were lost. I wouldn't be without a GPS. If the GPS didn't work you can be sure that I could find my location but it could take as long as 30 minutes as long as the vehicle is working.

[RADIOMAN015]

We don't need a regulation to cover every conceivable situation a ground team could run into. We're already regulated to death. Having said that:



2.  Most cell phones have a GPS function.Even a dumb redneck like me has a phone with a GPS function and it works 99.9% of the time. The other .01% I can pretty well land navigate my way through. Thank you Tropic Lightning Light Fighter school.


Sitting around trying to figure out more regulations is not the solution.

My Iphone expert at work tells me that IF there's no data signal from a cell tower than the Iphone GPS function does not work at all.   I am not sure with other phones equipped with GPS but I would guess it would be the same, unless there's a way to unlock the phone to work the GPS without a signal.

As far as regulations, go when they are telling you how many pairs of socks to bring I think it's reasonable to state standalone GPS or no ground team fun in the woods :angel:
RM

[ol'fido]

People have successfully land navigated for centuries without GPS and they will do so for many centuries after the GPS satellites fall from the sky. To mandate a piece of technology to me fosters a reliance on that technology which will most likely fail when you need it the most. Train in Land Nav, learn terrain association, remember Pt. 4 in my other post, and a GPS becomes a bit of gee whiz but redundant equipment.

[davidsinn]

We don't need a regulation to cover every conceivable situation a ground team could run into. We're already regulated to death. Having said that:



2.  Most cell phones have a GPS function.Even a dumb redneck like me has a phone with a GPS function and it works 99.9% of the time. The other .01% I can pretty well land navigate my way through. Thank you Tropic Lightning Light Fighter school.


Sitting around trying to figure out more regulations is not the solution.

My Iphone expert at work tells me that IF there's no data signal from a cell tower than the Iphone GPS function does not work at all.   I am not sure with other phones equipped with GPS but I would guess it would be the same, unless there's a way to unlock the phone to work the GPS without a signal.

As far as regulations, go when they are telling you how many pairs of socks to bring I think it's reasonable to state standalone GPS or no ground team fun in the woods :angel:
RM

My phone GPS works great in an airplane with all the radios turned off. Tell your expert to get a real phone.

[Eclipse]

My phone GPS works great in an airplane with all the radios turned off. Tell your expert to get a real phone.

If you turn all the radios off, which is what is required when flying, your GPS won't work at all.

Receivers have to be turned off just like transmitters.

[RADIOMAN015]

People have successfully land navigated for centuries without GPS and they will do so for many centuries after the GPS satellites fall from the sky. To mandate a piece of technology to me fosters a reliance on that technology which will most likely fail when you need it the most. Train in Land Nav, learn terrain association, remember Pt. 4 in my other post, and a GPS becomes a bit of gee whiz but redundant equipment.

I think CAP would look like foolish amateurs without this equipment if they were dealing with other agencies that on a regular basis that are involved in S&R off the beaten path (woods, deserts, mountains, etc).  Surely the ground team should still be taught and carry compass & appropriate maps, because CAP'ers have a bad habit of not charging their equipment that needs charging (e.g. portable two way radios), so that could happen with a GPS    

The technology is there to help us do our jobs more effectively and efficiently (frankly I'd still be driving around New York trying to find my way out IF I didn't have a GPS for the vehicle).  When time is if the essence (aircraft spots downed aircraft), somehow I think that the GPS may be a pretty critical piece of equipment for responding ground teams to get to the site quickly.   

RM