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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Civil Air Patrol As Well As Federal Government to Close Down!
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Author Topic: Civil Air Patrol As Well As Federal Government to Close Down!  (Read 7490 times)
Major Lord
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Posts: 1,817

« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2011, 01:03:35 PM »

I have two serious questions about the efficacy of CAP. 1) Are we worth the money? How much money do we cost per life saved, and could our mission be better handled by local SAR teams with no cost to the Federal taxpayer? (I know this ignores our Cadet Program's value) and 2) Where is the Constitutional Authority for the Congress to allocate funds and Charter CAP?

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 761
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2011, 01:23:19 PM »

Even as a measure of our Emergency Services mission, a comparison of dollars spent to lives saved is dubious because our contribution is to the overall effort in the response to emergencies. And the Congress's authority to charter and fund CAP is found in Article I Section 8 of the US Constitution.

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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,327

« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2011, 01:33:52 PM »

I have two serious questions about the efficacy of CAP. 1) Are we worth the money? How much money do we cost per life saved, and could our mission be better handled by local SAR teams with no cost to the Federal taxpayer? (I know this ignores our Cadet Program's value) and 2) Where is the Constitutional Authority for the Congress to allocate funds and Charter CAP?

Major Lord
For #2:
Article 1, Section 8:
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

The USAF is organized under this section of the US Constitution as they are land-based they come under the "armies" clause.  Even if you were to argue that we are not fully part of the USAF, the Congress has the authority "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers,", and it can be argued that having a civilian auxiliary of the USAF is proper to the execution of that power.  That takes care of the "Chartering" part of the question.

The Congress can spend money on just about anything they choose under the "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;" part of the Constitution.
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Major Lord
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Posts: 1,817

« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2011, 02:52:34 PM »

Okay, so if we argue that that the "reasonable and necessary" clause  is our basis for existence ( and I think the thread addressing the question "are we part of the military has disposed of the previous question) The question still stands: Is CAP objectively worth Federal funding? The subjective standard of "our total contribution to the mission" is pretty fluffy, and sounds like an attempt to deflect the question of whether we really should be federally funded ( and there are other options). The R&N Clause is about as abused the Commerce Clause ( Heck, if we don't mind using the same Constitutional Authority as Internment Camps, Avocado Advisory Boards, and funding driving schools for the blind, I guess we should be happy) I am not asking if CAP should be blown to hades, but whether our supposed cost savings to the taxpayers are valid. ( CAP has created or saved over 10,000,000 adorable puppies is not a sufficient argument) Which Federal program would you cut to save CAP?

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
Eclipse
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Posts: 23,798

« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2011, 03:04:51 PM »

Our funding is not really competing with other programs, we are a line-item of the USAF budget, so it would not be a matter of
which other independent program but what to cut internal to the USAF.

In the grande scheme of the USAF we are penny rounding.
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JeffDG
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,327

« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2011, 03:23:28 PM »

Okay, so if we argue that that the "reasonable and necessary" clause  is our basis for existence ( and I think the thread addressing the question "are we part of the military has disposed of the previous question) The question still stands: Is CAP objectively worth Federal funding? The subjective standard of "our total contribution to the mission" is pretty fluffy, and sounds like an attempt to deflect the question of whether we really should be federally funded ( and there are other options). The R&N Clause is about as abused the Commerce Clause ( Heck, if we don't mind using the same Constitutional Authority as Internment Camps, Avocado Advisory Boards, and funding driving schools for the blind, I guess we should be happy) I am not asking if CAP should be blown to hades, but whether our supposed cost savings to the taxpayers are valid. ( CAP has created or saved over 10,000,000 adorable puppies is not a sufficient argument) Which Federal program would you cut to save CAP?

Major Lord
The Necessary & Proper Clause is not, in itself, a grant of power.  It allows the feds to regulate items that are connected to their enumerated powers.  It's not that it's been read as broadly as the Interstate Commerce clause, but that it's been used to read the interstate commerce clause too broadly.  Now, it can be debated (and you'll be surprised to learn, that I mostly agree with you) whether that is an appropriate reading of the N&P Clause, but for the moment, it stands as the law.

That said, CAP is far more closely related to the "armies and navy clause" than growing wheat for consumption on your own farm is connected to Interstate Commerce (see Wickard v. Filburn - http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0317_0111_ZS.html), so I have very few doubts with respect to the legal authority for Congress to charter CAP.

The General Welfare clause has been used to justify all manner of federal spending, even if you set aside the power under the armies and navy clause to appropriate money.  The entirety of Social Security and Medicare sit upon the General Welfare clause along with the 16th Amendment (16th because they collect money via a tax on income, General Welfare permits the spending of the monies thus received).
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SII-117
Recruit

Posts: 19
Unit: **SECRET**

« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2011, 05:16:02 PM »

If the government wants more money (which they do), then they will do as humans do:
wave their magic wand and spend us out of debt. ::)
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup.
joemurffy
Newbie

Posts: 1
Unit: NCR-IA-001

« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2011, 01:04:15 PM »

Serious question on the topic of CAP and potential government shutdown:

If money is previously allocated from NHQ for a training evolution, would a government shutdown still stop it from happening?  Would it even if the money wasn't previously allocated?

Our Compliance Inspection is this weekend - not that I'm hoping, or anything. . . I'd rather put it behind us as scheduled, but I have to ask.

Oh, and we have asked up the chain of command, but no definitive response, yet.

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Joseph C. Murphy
Inspector General, IAWG CAP
davidsinn
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Unit: GLR-IN-227

« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2011, 01:25:45 PM »

Serious question on the topic of CAP and potential government shutdown:

If money is previously allocated from NHQ for a training evolution, would a government shutdown still stop it from happening?  Would it even if the money wasn't previously allocated?

Our Compliance Inspection is this weekend - not that I'm hoping, or anything. . . I'd rather put it behind us as scheduled, but I have to ask.

Oh, and we have asked up the chain of command, but no definitive response, yet.

My wing has a large exercise scheduled for tomorrow. It is going ahead as scheduled... I don't know if that answers your question or not.
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Former CAP Captain
David Sinn
Eclipse
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« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2011, 02:13:09 PM »

ILWG Spring Encampment is OPSNORMAL regardless of the budget situation per my discussion this morning with the Chief who acts as our liaison.

That implies the RTC will also be OPSNORMAL.
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,226

« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2011, 02:31:11 PM »

ILWG Spring Encampment is OPSNORMAL regardless of the budget situation per my discussion this morning with the Chief who acts as our liaison.

That implies the RTC will also be OPSNORMAL.

That is because the military won't shut down - though they also won't be paid. Military personnel are considered exempt I believe.
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GTL, GTM, UDF skills evaluator
Group Emergency Services Officer
NESA Staff 2013, 2014
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You're not lost until you're out of gas and lost.
Pylon
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« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2011, 04:56:23 PM »

The CAP Executive Director clarifies:  NHQ will operate as normal, NHQ employees will be paid as normal, government shutdown or not.


Per email sent to NHQ employees today:


Quote
Subject: Possible Government Shutdown
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 15:38:01 -0500
From: REasterling@capnhq.gov

Sent on behalf of Mr. Don Rowland


All employees,


Many of you have seen the recent news reports and newspaper headlines covering the increasing possibility of a Federal government shutdown when the Continuing Resolution expires this Friday, 8 April, due to the lack of agreement within Congress on a final budget for FY11.  As I stated in my previous e-mail when we faced this possibility on 4 March, if this does happen I expect the duration of a government shutdown to be brief. 


I would like to reiterate that CAP is not a government agency, which means that a shutdown will not affect us the same way it will affect the operations of government agencies.  CAP has funds to continue operations into May at our current spending levels.  I expect there will be a final resolution to the federal budget which will allow us to continue operations beyond this date.

Please plan on continuing day-to-day business as usual and know that you will be paid for any time that you are asked to work, even if there is a government shutdown.  We will provide additional details as information becomes available, and do not hesitate to contact me or your director if there are any questions that you would like answered.


Thank you,
Don Rowland
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Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
F. R. Sussey Composite Squadron       
RiverAux
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« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2011, 04:57:12 PM »

Word has been received that all CG Aux activities will be suspended if a shutdown happens. 
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JeffDG
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Posts: 2,327

« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2011, 05:00:01 PM »

I presume we will have some impacts.  State Directors are USAF employees, and unlikely to be considered essential...they're also civilian employees of the Department of the AF, so not military per se.

Wing Admins are paid for with appropriated funds too IIRC.  Again, unlikely they'd be deemed essential.
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SARDOC
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,319

myservicepride
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2011, 05:09:25 PM »

Word has been received that all CG Aux activities will be suspended if a shutdown happens.
Why's that?  Does the Auxiliary cost them more then their worth?  I would think any volunteer program would be essential to the mission in a budget crisis.  Count up all the Volunteer hours and do a cost benefit analysis...it's worth the buck to operate a program that is easily worth over 10x that.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2011, 05:13:02 PM »

No specific explanation was given, but keep in mind that a lot of Aux work involves payments (fuel reimbursements for example) and also potential costs to the CG if Auxies are injured or injure someone else while on duty. 
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Eclipse
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Posts: 23,798

« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2011, 05:17:47 PM »

I presume we will have some impacts.  State Directors are USAF employees, and unlikely to be considered essential...they're also civilian employees of the Department of the AF, so not military per se.

Wing Admins are paid for with appropriated funds too IIRC.  Again, unlikely they'd be deemed essential.

OPSNORMAL for for CAP-USAF, at least as far as State Directors and CAP-RAPS, per my wing's a few minutes ago.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
jks19714
Forum Regular

Posts: 162
Unit: MER-DE-008

My other hobby
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2011, 05:18:09 PM »

I suspect that the CGAUX situation may be related to the Anti-Deficiency Act.

- john
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Diamond Flight 88
W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3EDE/AAA9SL
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nesagsar
Seasoned Member

Posts: 283

Hoskins Business
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2011, 05:34:38 PM »

I hope you all realize that even though some people will be designated as essential, and thus must come to work, it dosent change the fact that the government is shut down and thus cant do anything. DHS, HHS, FEMA, Treasury, etc... all of their EOCs in Washington will have people on duty but their only duty will be to answer phones and tell people "sorry, we cant help you until the shutdown is over". All contracts are being suspended so contractors cant come in to work even if they are essential. If the shutdown lasts more than 2 weeks I will be unable to get food, gas, rent, etc...I have to cash in my vacation and sick days to get paid. According to the OPM guidelines we cant get temp jobs or unemployment while this thing lasts either.
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AirDX
Seasoned Member

Posts: 465
Unit: PCR-HI-078

« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2011, 06:51:27 PM »

I hope you all realize that even though some people will be designated as essential, and thus must come to work, it dosent change the fact that the government is shut down and thus cant do anything. DHS, HHS, FEMA, Treasury, etc... all of their EOCs in Washington will have people on duty but their only duty will be to answer phones and tell people "sorry, we cant help you until the shutdown is over".

That's not quite right.  For example, FAA air traffic controllers are essential, and will report to work and provide normal services.  I'd imagine the same is true for ICE, TSA, etc.  I work for the Air Force and when they called our AMD commander to ask how many of us were essential, he said "all of 'em".  We'll be here, moving airplanes just like the other 364 days of the year.  It just means that while we are working, there is no money to pay us... however the government, by certifying us as essential and telling us to come to work, is issuing us an IOU that we'll be paid out of future funding.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Civil Air Patrol As Well As Federal Government to Close Down!
 


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