What's with all the hate on....

If CAP was merely a private club like BSA, there would be no problem with discriminating against a "religious" organization (like BSA)

But we aren't, so discrimination is not only not in our credos, but expressly forbidden by regulation.

  If it is a para-governmental organization that decides as a policy that BSA is incompatible with merely associating with CAP, than it is only a matter of time until it is taken to its logical ending: The abolition of the Chaplain Corp.

I fail to see that leap.  If one were to compare our institution to the military (an organization that also does not discriminate based on culture, creed, and recently: sexual orientation) and they have a very strong Chaplain Corps.  Ours is strong as well, and chaplains have an integral roll as counselors and strong shoulders stand upon.  I have no problem conferring with a chaplain, as that is their job, that is what they are very effective at.  Religion is their tool.  I no more care that they use religion to accomplish their mission no more than I care if my roofer uses a hammer or a nail gun.  All I ask is that my head stays dry.

I respect our chaplains for the work that they do for our organization and for the personal commitment they put to their work.

The chaplain corps is not going anywhere, especially with the support that those individuals do for the Active Duty Military.

The act of distancing ourselves from an organization that does not fit into our own organization ethos does not equate to CAP distancing itself from religion.   

CAP does not have any issues with homosexuality ( Since clearly, homosexuals are well represented in CAP at the highest levels). Or even Atheism ( Although I think you should demand an Atheist Chaplain!)  The problem with Secular Humanism is that those indoctrinated in their beliefs are under the impression that they have no religious or faith-based beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Atheism is not the absence of a belief in deism: it is a competing philosophy that views religions as harmful ( as your hostility to religion well-demonstrates) . Atheism is a faith-based belief system  in that there is no acceptable evidence for or against the basic supposition of the existence of god. Secular Humanism is a belief system that replaces religion in Marxist ideology, and is used to transition the simple minded to eventual atheism. (Or really a belief that the State is "God")  During the transition phase, the Secular Humanist has the "freedom" to accept pseudo-religious beliefs, like naturism, Gaia Worship, or a hodgepodge of any beliefs. Notice that I have not called any of you "Secular Humanists". I have only stated that Secular Humanism as a religion, "hates" BSA. If you choose to defend their position, it does not make you one of them, but one can infer that you are sympathetic to their aims.

The above is a fundamental misunderstanding in the meaning of "Atheism", and "Secular Humanism".

I'll break it down barney style.

athe·ist noun \ˈā-thē-ist\
Definition of ATHEIST

: one who believes that there is no deity

or we'll even explore the root of the word.
The prefix "a-" meaning "without", and "theism" meaning belief in a deity.  Put together is simply "without belief in a deity".  No where is there anything about attacking religion, and at no time have I or myself attacked religion.  You brought religion into this argument.  Not I.

for the second part
"Secular Humansim"
Is simply the act of not taking anything on faith.  Which means that a secular humanist weighs everything against evidence to make decisions.  This fundamentally refutes your idea that it is a system of faith  Your comparison to Marxism is unfounded.  Yes, Marxist socialists do not believe in god, but Secular Humanists are not marxists.  I'm glad that this time you've at least elevated Secular Humanists relations from that of a child molester.  I'm interested to see what group you flailing try to associate us with next.

I'll save you the trouble.  Secular Humanists are all around you.  The don't make judgements based on your religion, and they are often quite about their beliefs.  Just as with every other belief system, or lack thereof, there is a vocal minority that makes trouble for everyone else.  For the most part, we're just everyday people, with no agenda other than trying to better ourselves.  No different than the people that do that with religion.  We're not better or worse, just different.  We're not unethical, or immoral.  So maybe we do have faith, we have faith in our own capacity for reason and morality. 

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended)  may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

As to the issue of the values of the organizations, how many scandals (including sexual scandals)  does CAP have in the central leadership compared to the BSA? For BSA's purposes, their standards for personnel have proven to be remarkably and pragmatically successful. Like all youth organizations, CAP and BSA have pederasts and other unwholesome types ( criminals, Amway sales people, etc.)  that infiltrate the group for their own purposes, but this issue is entirely separate from the issue of either Atheism or Homosexuality.

I agree, the BSA as a program is widely successful, no one is doubting that.  No one is doubting that CAP is fundamentally different.  And I agree, a criminal is a criminal regardless of the organization that he/she associates with and should be accountable and judged for their own actions.

As a corporate paradigm, CAP is much more like the Girl Scouts than the Boy Scouts in philosophy. The corporate success of BSA versus GSA is self-evident. I am certainly NOT suggesting that we turn CAP over to the Chaplains to run, as a Sharia-based cadet program. But I do believe that hostility to BSA on the grounds that have been expressed represent the most blatant and unreasoned anti-religious biases, and I don't see where this bigotry is helpful to CAP as a Youth Organization or in any other capacity.

Major Lord

There is no hostility toward the BSA by CAP as an organization, and our regulations are pretty clear on what is tolerated in respect to discrimination or bigotry.  What was stated is how there might be a conflict between their organization ethos and our regulation.
A conflict that has been really just stated as not worth worrying about.

I have repeatedly stated that I do not hate religion, or hate the BSA (quite the opposite), you will just not find me at their meetings.
It is not my intent to attack anyones affiliations, beliefs, or principles.

I must say that even though this is a heated topic, everyone has played nice with each other and has upheld the Respect core value. Good job.

Worrying about an organization you are not a part of and which does not affect you is wasted time and energy.

If they are on my lawn, I'll address it, usually with the hose.

If they pass out a flyer at the mall I don't agree with, I will ignore it.

If I look into joining and they espouse a point of view that is radically different than mine, or precludes my participation, I
cross them off my G-A-S list and move on.

If they have some areas I don't agree with but can still find common ground for cooperation, I will do my best to everyone's
advantage, and hope the Karma points work in my favor when I do dumb things like walk alone down Paradise Blvd South from
Sahara back to my hotel at 10:00 at night.

Travis and Nathan,

Eventually, the Mods shut down discussions like this, so I will let it go, and stand by the statement that Secular Humanism as a pseudo-religion  is the primary ideological enemy of BSA; Its not Amway, or the PTA or MADD that wants Scouts to change to fit their ideology. I agree with you that Atheism and Secular Humanism are very different things. Atheism as a philosophy is far more nuanced than just not believing that there is a deity. It is an "active" philosophy and quite different that the more "passive" and intellectually open philosophy of agnosticism.  I am not trying to convince you or Nathan that there is a "God", not to worry. ( Heck, I could not convince Nathan that an aircraft could take off on a treadmill-as I recall, he had a faith-based belief that the wheels would have to accelerate to "Infinity".) Between you and Nathan, you have described the religious beliefs of BSA  as bigoted and incompatible with CAP, and that we (CAP ) would eventually come to our senses and repudiate BSA. Maybe this is not hatred, but it has the earmarks of hatred. BSA has plenty of volunteers, and your belief system is much more CAP-like anyway, so I am sure that they can get by without you and you will do well with CAP. We are critters of entirely different species, and my arguments go to a happy relation between the groups,  not an ideological schism.

Major Lord

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended) may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

Major Lord

Of the hundreds of thousand former cadets, there are thousands who have become successful adults, who credit the program with their success.  That you can't think of many is due more to our lack of a good marketing strategy.  There are currently 3 very successful former cadets sitting on the BoG.  I know of a former CSAF who was a cadet, a couple of astronauts, generals, numerous corporate heads, congressmen, judges, physicans, a Rhodes Scholar....
 
I surely hope you are not implying the CAP cadet program is not successful in instilling values...

Col. Fred,

Not at all! CAP is very successful in generating leaders, even though our emphasis on morals (or ethics, now that we have abandoned the term morals)  is not nearly so, well, emphatic, as BSA. We just have far, far fewer people we send through the complete system. We have less than a couple of thousand Spaatzen in our entire history, where Scouts have produced zillions ( or thereabouts) of Eagle Scouts. I hope that our ratios are actually higher for success than you estimate; Thousands of successes out of hundreds of thousands is not so good! I agree that our marketing is unremarkable.


Major Lord

^Thanks for the clarification.  If we marketed ourselves better, I could give you a better estimate on our "Character Development" success....

Jumping on this wagon late, but...

I have a lot of respect for the Scouts.  I joined the Cub Scouts in kindergarten and stayed in all the way through Boy Scouts till I turned 18.  Everything that is the foundation for my CAP cadet success came from the BSA.  I was learning to be an effective leader as my troops SPL (Senior Patrol Leader, C/CC equivalent) long before I even knew what CAP was.  And all of my outdoors skills and knowledge that I use in ES are a direct result of spending at least one weekend a month (usually two) out camping with my troop.  And where else could I go with a bunch of my friends and bike across the entire state of Wisconsin (Mississippi R. to Lake Michigan)?

The quality of the program is directly proportional to the effort put in by troop leadership.  If the troop has poor leadership, its a poor program.  But the right people in the right place can make a hive of learning and growth.  When I'd tell my non-BSA friends that I was in Scouts they'd usually say something to the effect of "Isn't scouts gay?" and I'd promptly reply with "Why?  Its the best time of my life.  I'm out camping every month, I'm away from my parents most weekends, and while you're sitting around doing nothing I'm out fishing and having fun."  Showing confidence in the program and myself usually shut them up.

I agree that the bigotry needs to leave the program.  I was able to fly under the radar but lets just say that if I had made it to an Eagle board I'd have had to lie my way through it.

Some say that everything they need to know they learned in kindergarten.  I say that everything I need to know I learned in Scouts.

There's a couple of things that should probably be explained about scouting.

First of all a Boy Scout Troop isn't, technically, "owned" by the Boy Scouts of America as a CAP unit belongs to CAP.  The Troop is actually "owned" by the Chartered Organization.  This kind of keeps the Boy Scouts of America as an organization free from *some* liabilities.  A troop who has a charter from a specific religious organization (which most are) must also agree to the policies that that organization sets for the troop.

All the money, equipment, and other items that belong to a troop actually belongs to the Chartered Organization and they can do with it as they please.  If a BSA Troop has a fundraiser and makes a killing off of it, the Chartered Organization can take that money and use it for whatever they want to with it.  It does not have to go back to the Troop, but it generally does.

The Boy Scouts are not there to teach some of the things people would expect.  For the most part, it teaches boys to be men who can be of service to others.  There really is no military-style of discipline.  We expect our boys to be boys as well.  We allow them time to have fun and be kids.  In public, they are not going to be as disciplined as a CAP cadet but they should be disciplined enough to know how to act while in uniform and representing the BSA (which is also fading away, in my opinion).

I am currently a Troop Committee Member, Cub Scout Den Leader, CAP Member,  even a Girl Scout Leader (3 daughters), and an Eagle Scout (1994).  I was a CAP cadet and a Boy Scout at the same time and have done a few things with both organizations involved at the same time.  There really was no love/hate relationship at the time that I noticed.  It was all of us getting the jobs done that we were tasked with and do them to the best of our abilities.

My experience is that when a senior applies to a university or a job and states that he is an Eagle Scout, everyone goes like "wow!"...but if the same senior states that he is a Spaatz, everyone goes like "waatz?" Maybe the CAP should spend some time$ in marketing the profile of a Spaatz cadet, making in known by the general public. As mentioned earlier, both organizations are great but with different styles. As for me, Spaatz is far beyond Eagle Scout, more training, more preparation, more discipline, the Spaatz is monitored by USAF while Eagle Scout is monitored by the Scout Master (who often is the father or family member of the Eagle candidate) Not saying that it is always and everywhere like this. Certainly, Spaatz is more objective, credible and demanding than Eagle. Do you want to bet? go to a service academy and put in line 10 Eagles plebe, on another line put 10 Spaatz plebe. Let them do their thing for 10 minutes and you will see a heavens to earth difeference.

I think that the comparison is not useful. There have been approximately 2 million Eagle Scouts and approximately 2000 Spaatz Cadets.  There is a large degree of overlap between Spaatzen who are cross-dressers ( Boy Scouts and CAP) . You suggest that Spaatz may be be better at military academy assimilation, and I am sure you are right. Knowing how to march, wear and care of a uniform, and military customs and courtesies, etc. would sure make a plebe slightly less likely to  slam an important body part in the proverbial door. CAP is a paramilitary organization ( yes, I know many of you hate that word...) and although the commie  in "Red Dawn" viewed Eagle Scouts as "Elite paramilitary trainees", BSA is not in that business.  I have always found the idea that the Mitchell Award is equivalent to the Eagle; Eagle is a much bigger commitment, but as the Dad of a Spaatzen, I can assure you that the Spaatz can be MUCH harder than Eagle. I agree that the Spaatz is more objective, but there is a tremendous variability into how much an beyond the objective standard an Eagle may go. His community project for instance, may be to repaint a few mailboxes for the elderly, or he may choose to slay all the man eating grizzly bears in Alaska with a number 2 pencil.

Major Lord

Eagle Scout is monitored by the Scout Master (who often is the father or family member of the Eagle candidate)

I believe there is a misunderstanding about this part.  There is a number of people involved in a troop that monitor a scout's advancement.

The requirements for Merit Badges are handled by a Merit Badge Counselor and must be completed to his/her satisfaction in order to be awarded.  The Scoutmaster does not handle this part of the leg work (or shouldn't)

In order to achieve rank in scouting, a scout must also complete a Scoutmaster Conference.  Then he must complete a Board of Review by the Troop Committee for the rank he is to receive.  The Board does not include the Scoutmaster either (or shouldn't).

For the Eagle Board of Review, a representative from the District (similar to Groups in CAP) convenes people either within or outside of Boy Scouts to participate.

It is very possible that a parent be Scoutmaster and have some pull with their boy's advancement.  But that would degrade the whole purpose and spirit of scouting as well as violate several of the Scout Laws.

Considering this is a CAP discussion group, I would encourage anyone not familiar with the BSA to use their Goggle-fu and look at what it takes to make Eagle.  Start with the "Scout" Rank and progress all through the others to Eagle.  Then look at the requirements for some of the Merit Badges, especially those required for Eagle.

I won't compare the Eagle to the Spaatz because they are both VERY different.  Both are hard to achieve and both should be recognized for the hard work and dedication they deserve.

Eagle may be the highest rank, but it isn't the stopping point for most Boy Scouts who earn it either.  There are still more advancements available above that.

Just a little educational briefing on the BSA! 

Perhaps I should redirect my critic to the people that are not related to the programs and give preference to Eagles over Spaatz based on ignorance. Personally, if I meet an Eagle he would have my respect, but it would not to the same level as the respect that I would pay to a Spaatz Cadet.  I can say that both programs are great. Some kids do not like CAP but make outstanding progress in BSA and vice versa. No intention to make an out of order comparison, just an opinion. My point of view on how I see both programs having been in both of them.

Well that could be true for anything.

People know what "eagle scout" means and they have some sort of idea what it takes to get it....and that equates to some level of respect.
People don't know what a "spaatz cadets" means and so they don't have any preconceived ideas about it.

Anyone know what a Vigil Honor is?
Withing the community of the Boy Scouts it is a high honor.....outside of boy scouts....not many know what it is.

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"
Now John Doe, MD or John Doe, PhD....those mean something to  me.

Either way......if you are collecting certs or ranks in BSA or CAP for respect......I think you have missed the point of programs.

If you think the "problem" is that no one knows what Spaatz means and does not garner the same name recognition of Eagle Scout......the fix is simple.  Get more people into CAP and get more people to Spaatz.

The BSA earns their name recognition thought 100 years of pumping boys their their program.  They developed their program in such a way that it is fairly easy to achieve withing the six year window of opportunity.

IMHO CAP just does not do that as well.  They don't recruit soon enough.  They don't cycle their recruiting with the school year, they set the expectations of what a Spaatz too high for most people to complete it while they are still in high school.

Certainly the purpose of both programs should not be just to gather recognition, rather, to obtain character development. But obtaining recognition is not a bad thing. Let's be realistic here...obtaining that prize and using it for college and job applications is the engine that powers thousands of scouts to go for the Eagle. Eagle recognition is the result of 100 years in the making but by 1960 anyone knew what an Eagle was across the nation. CAP cadet program has been around for over 60 years in the making and it's about time that when a young cadet obtain his/her Spaatz be recognized where ever he/she goes with a resume or college application. Most often, it is a parents decision if the kid goes to BSA or CAP, and the parents usually make that decision based on the kid's future and what can he obtain from the experience to be used later. So far, our Spaatz is not as marketable as BSA's Eagle among parents. Hence my recommendation to CAP to do something.

I would agree with about 90% of Lordmonars' assertions, although I don't think we ought to dumb-down the Spaatz award just to improve our numbers. They are a pretty rarefied group, and I would hate to see the value of the award diluted. I wonder how many Spaatz actually make it before graduating from High School? I would guess that most are the far side of the legal smoking age. (Maybe the Spaatzengruppen  have some stats on this? ) Also, I think that trying to market the Spaatz as comparable to the Eagle is not in our (CAP's) best interest; It should stand or fall on its own gravitas. 

I know, and I am sure many of you know, cadets who joined CAP with a very single minded intention to win the Spaatz award. This may or may not result in the most rounded CAP "career", but as a means to an end ( i.g., trying to gain brownie points towards a service academy) it may be just fine. Many kids join scouts with that same single minded determination to gain the Eagle, or win every merit badge, and as most high-performing kids are these days, they have a pretty busy calendar, and have to husband their time and personal resources to further their life goals. I don't see any conflict between between the goals of BSA and CAP, but its pretty clear that we are so dissimilar as to make comparisons between the two nearly pointless. Its like trying to convert Fahrenheit to Kilograms...

Major Lord

I have known many members of the Boy Scouts of America. The truth is the BSA are not Haters, and CAP Cadets should not treat them them in a hateful manner IF that is really happening. I'm fairly sure the majority of CAP Cadet Leaders do demonstrate good leadership attributes like civility the same as they would with JROTC Cadets, Sea Scout Cadets or Young Marines.  Our Squadron has a number of Scouts who participate in Venture Crew as part of a CAP activity.  As for the BSA and their purported intolerance all I can say is if the ACLU is against them I'm for them.

I guess that you are right. We are comparing different concepts. Anyways, I've done my job in putting the word out with College and HR recruiters letting them know what being a Spaatz involves and they are, little by little, joining the ranks of Spaatz admirers.

I know, and I am sure many of you know, cadets who joined CAP with a very single minded intention to win the Spaatz award. This may or may not result in the most rounded CAP "career", but as a means to an end ( i.g., trying to gain brownie points towards a service academy) it may be just fine. Many kids join scouts with that same single minded determination to gain the Eagle, or win every merit badge, and as most performing kids are these days, they have a pretty busy calendar, and have to husband their time and personal resources to further their life goals. I don't see any conflict between between the goals of BSA and CAP, but its pretty clear that we are so dissimilar as to make comparisons between the two nearly pointless. Its like trying to convert Fahrenheit to Kilograms...

Major Lord

I don't really think that is true.

I know lots of young Scouts (the rank not scouts with a small "s") who are setting their goals for Eagle.
I don't really think we have the same number of young C/Amn setting their sights for Spaatz.

There are a lot of reasons for that:

1.  Lack of examples.  In a healthy BSA troop you may have one or two serving Eagle Scouts and several Life Scouts working on their Eagle.  Even at smaller or isolated troops you will have fairly recent examples of an Eagle Scout or have one in a nearby troop.
In CAP I have been in NVWG since 2006.....in that time there has not been a single Spaatz.  We may have one or two reach Eakker (I can think of 3 in the same time frame) only small hand full of Earharts and Mitchells.  The majority of them disappear at or soon after their 18th birthday.  I see the real goal being set by most cadets is to make their Mitchell.

2.  Time lines.  In BSA there are no time requirements for the first four ranks.  As soon as the scout completes the requirements they earn the rank.  The last three can be completed in 14 months.  The BSA puts the onus of "serving your time" on the higher ranks.  If a sharp scout in a very well run program can shoot through the lower ranks they move him right along.  This makes getting your Eagle Scout an achievable goal by your 18th birthday...and still leaves plenty of time doing specail activities like Jamborees. working on camp staff, working with the Order of the Arrow, working on Leader Development Staff and going to the high adventure bases.
CAP on the other hand is 38 months minimum (that is they get their curry the day they get their CAP ID and get their Spaatz they same day they get their Eakker).  Add in the requirement to go to Encampment, going the RCOS/COS and we spread that time line out.  This makes adding the other activities that we want cadets to do like encampment staff, CAC, NCSAs, NCC, ES, O-rides, only eat up their time to progress through the program.  This all adds up to the perception that Spaatz is not really obtainable.

3.  Eternal Chiefs.  There is a glass barrier in cadet program where progressing beyond chief is not desirable.  All the cool jobs at encampment, NBB, et al are all the NCO jobs.  Getting promoted beyond Chief means I can't drill cadets anymore.  Getting promoted beyond chief means I can't be on color guard anymore.  I want to enlist in the military someday and I get nothing for going beyond Mitchell.  This creates a stop in the progression system.  BSA does not have this.....they have the barrier at Life Scout because it is hard to finish off those last few merit badges and get your Eagle Project done.....not because it is cool to be First Class Scout forever.

4. School, Sports, Work, Cars and Girls.  Both the BSA and CAP have to deal with this.  At the magic age of 16 all bets are off.  Scouts and Cadets quit like flies because they don't have time anymore.  School gets harder.  They get involved with sports.  The get jobs to pay for their cars and take out their girls.  This cuts down our window of opportunity to hook them on the idea of moving on and getting their top rank.  The BSA deals with this by having only 7 steps getting the scouts at "completed the 5th grade and at least 10 years of age" and hopefully having them right there by the time SSWCG kicks in.   In CAP we only have at the most 4 years to do this.  We are locked into our timelines that creates a barrier when SSWCG kicks in.  A 16 year old Chief is going to make his decisions on how far he is going to shoot for.  I see it all the time.  The lower their target to getting the Mitchell and that is it.

These are the main reasons why I feel we don't have more Spaatzs.  I point them out as "problems" but that does not mean they really are.  It is only showing where we would have to make changes if the goals was to increase the number of Spaatzs.

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"

There is a reason for doing this, and it usually involves communications between IT people and technical areas of the companies they deal with. For example, if I am e-mailing a request to the Federal Reserve to make a change on our VPN connection, it helps if they know that I understand what multicasting is and if we are using it.

If you don't know what the letters mean, disregard them.

Within the Information Technologies communites.....there are a lot of certs out there A++. MCTS, et al......the IT guys are always going on and on about.....even to the point where one of our gay added it to his E-mail signature.  I have no ideal what they mean.....so when John Doe, MCTS sends me an e-mail I just have to put him in a box marked "?"

There is a reason for doing this, and it usually involves communications between IT people and technical areas of the companies they deal with. For example, if I am e-mailing a request to the Federal Reserve to make a change on our VPN connection, it helps if they know that I understand what multicasting is and if we are using it.

If you don't know what the letters mean, disregard them.

At one point I counted, and I could put 14 different IT certifications behind my name.  It's like the ribbons in CAP, for outsiders they're just pretty colours on your shirt...to those who know, it's your resume.