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Major Carrales
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« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2011, 01:07:13 AM »

The Composite Squadron I commanded prior to my current assignment was dual chartered.  These were great times.  We work well with them and did lots of joint activities.  I will not bad mouth them for stand for those that would do it.

I went so far as to see where we could best provide services to on another.  I got the BSA Boy Scout Requirements and began matching them up to our SQTR forms and started basing out camp outs and fly-ins to cover both.  We also did the reverse...provided help to the local scouts for their badges in a number of activities...aviation and communications.

When our unit "split," we fell out of regular communication.  We will explore it again soon, however.

There was one issue, however, that is worth of note.  We were a Venture Crew and there was a Troop affiliated with us of which our then DCC encouraged CAP members to join some Scout also wished to join CAP.   The issue was this... We had some that were "more cadets that scouts" and some that were "more scout than cadet."  The prior did not really get into scout advancements...something that the then DCC grew frustrated with to some degree.  I could understand...they had joined CAP and were dedicated to it...scouts were an "after effect" and "back burner" thing.  The later did the same with CAP becoming "airmen for life" while making advancements in scouts.   They were good ES cadets, but rarely lifted a metaphorical finger to do leadership or aerospace education.

"Cadet Scouts" would never memorize the Scout LAW and OATH...more frustration.

My opinion is, if we had sat down and had a guide for CAP VENTURE CREWS (we felt like we were "making it up as we went," (the relationship part) since no one in the local BSA knew how to help/guide us and no one in the CAP official channels had any "template" for us.

I would still, however, like to see if I could help make the template.


One the Scouts and their polices...(OPINION)

Here is the thing...organizations have rules they follow.  If membership in those organizations are not "MANDATORY," then they may hold these certain rules.  Suppose a Southern Baptist wants to join the KNIGHTS of COLUMBUS...an Roman Catholic Organization restricted to Catholics.

The Ogden YWCA has been disaffiliated from the national group because local members voted last month to allow men full membership, officials say.  Should not a man have full privileges in said organization under the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause?  What's more, its a Title IX issue...potentially?

Perhaps the USAF is violating rights because it does not allow the blind and deaf to train and become fighter pilots?  What about Title I?

The ridiculous aside...the BSA has it rules which are known in advance to those that would join.  That is the position they take on those matters.

I have no problem with Homosexuals or Atheists...I have friends, true good ones, that are numbered among both groups.   I have found, however, that is you address and treat them like "people" instead of labels, you can actually move beyond the intolerance/tolerance issues noted here.   And though I am not a member of said groups, being straight and Roman Catholic...I can live in a world, in organizations and among the communities I inhabit.

Let's be civil about these things.
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Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2011, 01:11:54 AM »


One the Scouts and their polices...(OPINION)

Here is the thing...organizations have rules they follow.  If membership in those organizations are not "MANDATORY," then they may hold these certain rules.  Suppose a Southern Baptist wants to join the KNIGHTS of COLUMBUS...an Roman Catholic Organization restricted to Catholics.

The Ogden YWCA has been disaffiliated from the national group because local members voted last month to allow men full membership, officials say.  Should not a man have full privileges in said organization under the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause?  What's more, its a Title IX issue...potentially?

Perhaps the USAF is violating rights because it does not allow the blind and deaf to train and become fighter pilots?  What about Title I?

The ridiculous aside...the BSA has it rules which are known in advance to those that would join.  That is the position they take on those matters.

I have no problem with Homosexuals or Atheists...I have friends, true good ones, that are numbered among both groups.   I have found, however, that is you address and treat them like "people" instead of labels, you can actually move beyond the intolerance/tolerance issues noted here.   And though I am not a member of said groups, being straight and Roman Catholic...I can live in a world, in organizations and among the communities I inhabit.

Let's be civil about these things.

Ditto Sparky

TF, MM
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Bill Hobbs, Major, CAP
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davidsinn
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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2011, 02:16:25 AM »

As the OP I didn't intend to take this outside the CAP context. I understand and respect the arguments on both sides of the discussion here. I have no problem with the remark about "scouts are good, we need someone to search for." That made me smile. I was just wondering why our cadets, you know the ones we are supposed to be turning into leaders and trying to impart a little positive character to, are always ripping into the BSA? They don't give a rat's FPOC about the political aspect of it nor do I think most even know about it.

As for the Girl Scouts:
They actually sell you cookies? Around here it's like extortion, they could give lessons to the Sopranos... ;D
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David Sinn
Major Carrales
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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2011, 03:27:32 AM »

As the OP I didn't intend to take this outside the CAP context. I understand and respect the arguments on both sides of the discussion here. I have no problem with the remark about "scouts are good, we need someone to search for." That made me smile. I was just wondering why our cadets, you know the ones we are supposed to be turning into leaders and trying to impart a little positive character to, are always ripping into the BSA? They don't give a rat's FPOC about the political aspect of it nor do I think most even know about it.

As for the Girl Scouts:
They actually sell you cookies? Around here it's like extortion, they could give lessons to the Sopranos... ;D

The only insight I can offer is that it is done from a position of ignorance.  No excuses other than ignorant ideas brought forth by a sense of either 1) false superiority or 2) like so many here (ahem), trying to make disingenuous comparisons between CAP and another clearly different organization.   
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Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2011, 03:46:30 AM »

Don't our CAP regulations prevent us from "discriminating" against the folks that BSA policy prohibits from membership?  If so, how does a dual charter work?

I'm not "hating on" the Scouts here.  Once upon a time I was a police explorer (BSA run) and later a cub scout and webelos leader when my boys were scouts.  However I am curious how dual chartered units reconcile what seems, on the surface, to be mutually exclusive policies.
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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2011, 03:50:39 AM »

Just because the unit is duel chartered.....does not mean the individal members are duel members.

You still have to pay dues to both organisations.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Major Carrales
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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2011, 04:05:50 AM »

You still have to pay dues to both organizations.

This is true...and I also think it outlines the "effect" I pointed out in the other thread.  If one started focused on CAP (paid financial and emotional investment dues), then that one might tend to downplay the Venture Crew elements (which they paid financial dues to, but might just see it as a camping opportunity instead of a place to be advancing in a "program")
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wuzafuzz
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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2011, 04:28:35 AM »

Just because the unit is duel chartered.....does not mean the individal members are duel members.

You still have to pay dues to both organisations.
That seems odd.  Do they participate even if they don't qualify for BSA membership?  If so, aren't they de facto BSA members, possibly in violation of BSA rules?  Would they be covered by any applicable BSA insurance if an activity is run on the scouting side? 

But why pay the BSA side if you can't participate in scout activities?  You have to pay, but you can't play today because you are "different."  Does that equal discrimination?

We tend to think of the cadets when discussing BSA, but how does all this affect adult leaders in dual chartered unit?

I tend to be a chicken little, thinking of potential pitfalls.  This situation strikes me as one that just hasn't blown up yet. 
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2011, 04:36:03 AM »

Just because the unit is duel chartered.....does not mean the individal members are duel members.

You still have to pay dues to both organisations.
That seems odd.  Do they participate even if they don't qualify for BSA membership?  If so, aren't they de facto BSA members, possibly in violation of BSA rules?  Would they be covered by any applicable BSA insurance if an activity is run on the scouting side? 

But why pay the BSA side if you can't participate in scout activities?  You have to pay, but you can't play today because you are "different."  Does that equal discrimination?

We tend to think of the cadets when discussing BSA, but how does all this affect adult leaders in dual chartered unit?

I tend to be a chicken little, thinking of potential pitfalls.  This situation strikes me as one that just hasn't blown up yet.

The "joint" activities we did were basically "squadron" activities.  We did not integrate into the SCOUT activities per se, but did them parallel and, with some interaction, under strict CAP supervision.

We did some camp cooking, tent work, camping (these are airport "fly ins" where we stayed the night at the airport...with all due Cadet Protection Policy considerations...and conducted O-Flights the next morning) and orienteering.  I, as well as Squadron Commander of the Composite Unit, was the Assistant Crew Adult Leader and the DCC, who was a big time SCOUT MASTER and Eagle Scout, was  the Crew Leader.

We were covered...in a way...by both the BSA policy as well as the CAP Safety Protocols.  Additionally, when we would use Camp Karankawa, one paid a minimum fee to the BSA for some sort of temporary insurance indemnity/ coverage. 
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Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
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tsrup
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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2011, 04:41:46 AM »

I think what wazzafuzz is trying to get at, is how a gay or atheist member would integrate with a dual chartered squadron.  Would they be unable to participate in activities that are covered by the BSA?, or are venture crew membership criteria then that of a normal scout?

No alteriar motives, just a genuine question.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2011, 04:46:19 AM »

I think what wazzafuzz is trying to get at, is how a gay or atheist member would integrate with a dual chartered squadron.  Would they be unable to participate in activities that are covered by the BSA?, or are venture crew membership criteria then that of a normal scout?

No alteriar motives, just a genuine question.

Venturing involved girls and boys in "high adventure" activities, one could design/custom one's uniform (this allowed CAP Uniforms to serve that purpose), this is an example of one difference...give me a minute to get you proper information on your question for the best answer.  We never encountered this as an issue.

The answer is taking longer that I anticipated.

I do know that BSA does not allow any sort of sexuality to take place at its activities.  A question I might ask is how is one's Heterosexuality or Homosexuality germane to the activity?  In my humble opinion, it should not even be anyone's business.  An organization no more needs to know about one's  MARRIAGE and its STABILITY/INSTABILITY, what I've eaten over the past few days or how much GINGER ALE I consume than it needs to know about someone's sexual orientation.
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"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
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SWR-TX-454
tsrup
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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2011, 05:06:26 AM »

I agree, and if there was an instance I would assume that the CC would make choices that are in keeping with our own regulations.  This sitution probably will very rarely if ever be encountered by a squadron.


I guess the answer to this question would be simply, who needs to know anyways?  I don't think there would be a squadron commander in this organization that would throw one of their own members under the bus over something like this.

Thanks for looking anyways, I tried my luck as well and I guess my google fu stilll needs some honing.
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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2011, 06:39:17 AM »

Well, we are CAP, our unit is dual chartered, but when you come to us you are joining CAP and the Venturing Crew/Troop depending on what scope you fall under (age, gender, etc). In the five years it's not been an issue for us, no one has raised a word about what they believe or don't believe in, they just fork over the $11 bucks and sign the paper, and get the magazine.

The only thing I can do without is the catalog full of overpriced fund raiser junque. We'd be better off buying first aid kits from Wal*Mart and putting a CAP sticker on the package and telling people exactly how much we paid and why we're doing it. We'd sell 'em for less and still make more money, and the first aid kits would contain more stuff than the others.

(We have not done this, we are not planning on it, it's never been mentioned, I just made it up to show as a comparison for how lame I think those products are)

OTOH, the Boy Scouts do sell good popcorn :)
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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2011, 07:33:49 AM »

Conversely, some churches do not allow their members to be Scouts because they view the BSA as a "religious organisation" not in line with their confessional doctrine.

The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) - think Rep. Michele Bachmann - is one of those.

http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/january-1996/religious-principles-boy-scouts

So the shoe can be on the other foot.

Disclaimer: I am not WELS, but a member of the more-centrist Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod.  We don't have a problem with the Scouts, although I am told we used to years ago.
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« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2011, 08:58:46 AM »

Where as the Mormons use Scouting as their youth program.
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« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2011, 01:46:43 PM »

This has nothing to do with secular humanism, or value judgements. It has everything to do with cultivating attitudes in youths that will not help them in adulthood. The truth is atheism and homosexuality are more accepted in society today than they ever have been, and will continue to be more accepted as time goes on. A youth who is raised to understand these individuals are immoral or "unclean" will find their reputations seriously harmed if/when their behavior as adults reflects this belief.

The BSA's stance on homosexuals and non-religious people is simply not compatible with CAP's core value of respect, and I think it is only a matter of time before this proves to be problematic with dual chartered units.
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NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
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« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2011, 03:22:25 PM »

If CAP was merely a private club like BSA, there would be no problem with discriminating against a "religious" organization (like BSA)  If it is a para-governmental organization that decides as a policy that BSA is incompatible with merely associating with CAP, than it is only a matter of time until it is taken to its logical ending: The abolition of the Chaplain Corp.

 CAP does not have any issues with homosexuality ( Since clearly, homosexuals are well represented in CAP at the highest levels). Or even Atheism ( Although I think you should demand an Atheist Chaplain!)  The problem with Secular Humanism is that those indoctrinated in their beliefs are under the impression that they have no religious or faith-based beliefs. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Atheism is not the absence of a belief in deism: it is a competing philosophy that views religions as harmful ( as your hostility to religion well-demonstrates) . Atheism is a faith-based belief system  in that there is no acceptable evidence for or against the basic supposition of the existence of god. Secular Humanism is a belief system that replaces religion in Marxist ideology, and is used to transition the simple minded to eventual atheism. (Or really a belief that the State is "God")  During the transition phase, the Secular Humanist has the "freedom" to accept pseudo-religious beliefs, like naturism, Gaia Worship, or a hodgepodge of any beliefs. Notice that I have not called any of you "Secular Humanists". I have only stated that Secular Humanism as a religion, "hates" BSA. If you choose to defend their position, it does not make you one of them, but one can infer that you are sympathetic to their aims.

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended)  may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

As to the issue of the values of the organizations, how many scandals (including sexual scandals)  does CAP have in the central leadership compared to the BSA? For BSA's purposes, their standards for personnel have proven to be remarkably and pragmatically successful. Like all youth organizations, CAP and BSA have pederasts and other unwholesome types ( criminals, Amway sales people, etc.)  that infiltrate the group for their own purposes, but this issue is entirely separate from the issue of either Atheism or Homosexuality.

As a corporate paradigm, CAP is much more like the Girl Scouts than the Boy Scouts in philosophy. The corporate success of BSA versus GSA is self-evident. I am certainly NOT suggesting that we turn CAP over to the Chaplains to run, as a Sharia-based cadet program. But I do believe that hostility to BSA on the grounds that have been expressed represent the most blatant and unreasoned anti-religious biases, and I don't see where this bigotry is helpful to CAP as a Youth Organization or in any other capacity.

Major Lord
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"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."
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« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2011, 03:36:40 PM »

If CAP was merely a private club like BSA,
care to expand on that?
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Hawk200
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« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2011, 04:19:51 PM »

I think a problem here is that people are assuming ill will with a lack of agreement with someone's lifestyle. There's way too much "You don't agree with me, so you hate me." The two are not the same, and it's false, bordering on unethical, to assume such.

I don't agree with homosexuality. That's my personal belief, and it's gonna be really tough for someone if they don't like it. I don't care if someone does, it's not my problem, it's theirs. I am not going to alter my beliefs in order to be like someone else. I am unique as a person and in my beliefs and that is my right.

I strongly believe that the issue is between that person and God, and I have no place passing any form of judgement on them. It's not my place. I will not discriminate against someone that is homosexual. If I had a homosexual in my unit, they wouldn't be treated any differently than any heterosexual would be. I would provide the same assistance to all personnel, be it decorations, courses, training, promotions, mentoring, etc. I wouldn't begrudge anyone anything for their sexual preference.

I do have a problem with people that want to flaunt their homosexuality. I've had people that knew I was military, and assumed that being so, I hated them for being homosexual. I have actually been challenged with the statement of "I'm gay!" and replied with "I'm straight. So what?" That has been followed with "Oh, you think you're so much better than me because you're straight!?" I walk away, or completely ignore the person after that. They're looking for a fight, and I've got better things to do with my time.

Strangely enough, I've gotten a great deal of support from other homosexuals that don't make a point of defining themselves as gay. They feel that the blatant ones are causing more issues with acceptance than the "prudish" heterosexuals. Many of them have been good friends. We've done the intelligent thing, and just not discussed the issues that we differ greatly on. If someone has an issue working with a person that is homosexual, then they do have a problem.

One can have disagreeing beliefs and still work well with others.
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« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2011, 04:43:24 PM »

Now, as to the success of instilling values in our "Yoots". How many of Americas' great leaders and thinkers have been Eagle Scouts or succeeded in life because of Scouts, or because they were the kind of person who would be a Scout by training or inclination? The success stories are too numerous to count! How many great Americans have been CAP members? Answer? Some, although besides the Col's Lee, its hard to think of any. Now judging a tree by its fruits (no pun intended) may seem unfairly Judeo-Christian, but I think its a standard by which a fair comparison may be made.

Major Lord

Of the hundreds of thousand former cadets, there are thousands who have become successful adults, who credit the program with their success.  That you can't think of many is due more to our lack of a good marketing strategy.  There are currently 3 very successful former cadets sitting on the BoG.  I know of a former CSAF who was a cadet, a couple of astronauts, generals, numerous corporate heads, congressmen, judges, physicans, a Rhodes Scholar....
 
I surely hope you are not implying the CAP cadet program is not successful in instilling values...
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